Perceptual Reality

analog57 · Post by **analog57** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:46 pm

[1.] An individual mind can only experience reality via its own unique sphere of perception or "perceptual bubble".

[2.] The individual perceptual sphere contains the perceptions of the individual mind, therefore the perceptual sphere is a type of set.

[3.] A thing that exists can only be known to exist via perception within a MIND[perceptual sphere]

[4.] A perception of another entity is a set intersection

[5.] A larger set contains any two intersecting perceptions.

[6.]The larger set must also be a perceptual sphere[MIND] since it must necessarily generate the properties of its own subsets.

[7.] The boundary of individual perceptions is necessarily included in a larger individual perception, since any two intersecting sets must be contained by a larger set

[8.] The ever larger individual perception can perceive all individual perceptions[subsets] even though any particular individual perception[subset] may not be aware of reality outside of its
own lesser boundary of perception.

[9.] If free will exists then any individual perception has the free will to deny existence of the greater MIND, and its boundary remains closed to intersection with the
greater dimension of perception. Its perception remains limited.

[10.] Each perception must discover the truth for itself.

Kevin Solway · Post by **Kevin Solway** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:15 pm

analog57 wrote:Each perception must discover the truth for itself.

Each perceiver must discover the truth for himself. Or, the perceiver can be programmed to discover the truth. Same thing, since in reality there is no free will. Everything is caused to happen.

Beingof1 · Post by **Beingof1** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:22 pm

Kevin,
If you ever even think about giving up the path of the sage; I will row to Australia in a canoe and raid your frig, camp out in your living room, and ruthlessly drive you to seeking the truth of "How a pacifist can kick an unwanted moocher out" :).

Analog:

These are good premise/questions to work with.

My questions to you:
1- How can the mind perceiving this "larger set" be a subset of its own perception?
2- Could you tell us where the perceptual bubble ends?
3- Who is perceiving another entity as a set intersection?
4- How can a perception discover truth?

sevens · Post by **sevens** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:31 am

Hi Kevin!

(grin)

Leyla Shen · Post by **Leyla Shen** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:47 am

Everything is caused to happen.

In that case, "everything is caused" is both the definition of free-will and the full extent of the law.

David Quinn · Post by **David Quinn** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:53 am

Analog,

[1.] An individual mind can only experience reality via its own unique sphere of perception or "perceptual bubble".

[2.] The individual perceptual sphere contains the perceptions of the individual mind, therefore the perceptual sphere is a type of set.

[3.] A thing that exists can only be known to exist via perception within a MIND[perceptual sphere]

[4.] A perception of another entity is a set intersection

[5.] A larger set contains any two intersecting perceptions.

[6.]The larger set must also be a perceptual sphere[MIND] since it must necessarily generate the properties of its own subsets.

This larger set still only exists within one of the individual perceptual bubbles. Or to put it into English, it is only through your imagination that the two individual consciousnesses are being perceived. You are imagining the larger set and the conscious perspective it requires, and that is all. You don't have any proper evidence that there is anything more to it than this.

As before, your argument falls down this point. The logical step between the existence of individual minds, which we know exist, and this nebulous larger MIND simply isn't there. It's is a quantum jump that you make here, which in effect divides your argument into two separate halves with no connection between them. This is standard theological practice.

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zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:12 am

as you can see analog57 there is not much objectivity here. when someone 'knows' the truth you either accept or reject...cause, effect, logic, reason - poof! all gone...if you don't know you can be 'programmed...'

Leyla Shen · Post by **Leyla Shen** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:53 am

David Quinn: Again, you need to stop thinking of terms of past, present and future. What you are looking at right now, at this very instant, is the first and last moment of creation. There is nothing else.

These are powerful words, David Quinn.

David Quinn · Post by **David Quinn** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:59 am

zarathustra wrote:

as you can see analog57 there is not much objectivity here. when someone 'knows' the truth you either accept or reject...cause, effect, logic, reason - poof! all gone...if you don't know you can be 'programmed...'

As you can see, Kevin, there is not much coherence going on here .....

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freelight · Post by **freelight** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:06 pm

ksolway wrote: Each perceiver must discover the truth for himself. Or, the perceiver can be programmed to discover the truth. Same thing, since in reality there is no free will. Everything is caused to happen.

Hi kev,

If everything is caused....then what generates each cause? Is the Totality ever bringing forth generations by its own will (we could call this 'divine Will')...and therefore personal free will is only a purported illusion? Just curious about your inflection of logic here - also Leyla brings up a point - would you comment on her response/comment as well?

paul

Blair · Post by **Blair** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:48 pm

freelight wrote:If everything is caused....then what generates each cause?

If electricity is caused...then what generates electricity?

Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:03 pm

Ummm, the cause?

freelight · Post by **freelight** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:38 am

Matt Gregory wrote:Ummm, the cause?

Hi Matt,

Kevin stated that all things are 'caused' - implying that free will was an illusion - this implies that the power behind the cause is generated/determined out of something other than personal free will. If free will does not exist then that which is governing/determining things to happen in a certain way are out of the power/thresh-hold of personal free will. I'm simply asking kevin for the evidence/logic behind his discredit of 'free will' and what governs and/or what power is generating and determining the outcomes of all things that transpire in the Universe. So we await kevin to address my inquiries and Leylas on this matter. - it appeared Leyla brings in the law of free will as being factoral in the outcome of all things happening(our choices affecting conditions/destiny, etc.) - which kinda sounds like the law of thelema(will). She can chime in to let me know if I'm warm or not.

paul

freelight · Post by **freelight** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:57 am

prince wrote:
freelight wrote:If everything is caused....then what generates each cause?
If electricity is caused...then what generates electricity?

Hi prince,

My inquiry was directed more towards the issue of personal free will ........and if free will is not a causal influence in determining outcomes...then something else must be the Cause behind all things that happen in the phenomenal world....personally and collectively.

As far as what generates electricity....do you have an answer to your own question? (one could say energy is an eternal substance which is ever dynamic - could you determine what governs/directs the outflow of all energetic motions?) This brings us back to 'cause' - what is causing the motion, power, energy, direction of space/matter fluxations going out thru-out the totality of Existence? One could say 'God' is the Sole Agent causing all things to transpire - 'God' being the Life, Power, Mind, Intelligence, governing/controlling all things within the arena of its own divine Providence - one can only speculate however what part free will or freedom of choice plays in determing the conditions/outcomes/destinies of individuals...assuming their choices do have a relative affect on their own life conditions.

paul

Leyla Shen · Post by **Leyla Shen** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:19 am

She can chime in to let me know if I'm warm or not.

Yes, you are correct.

So we await kevin to address my inquiries and Leylas on this matter. - it appeared Leyla brings in the law of free will as being factoral in the outcome of all things happening(our choices affecting conditions/destiny, etc.) - which kinda sounds like the law of thelema(will).

Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:22 pm

Hi Paul,

I was replying to Prince, actually, but...

Kevin stated that all things are 'caused' - implying that free will was an illusion - this implies that the power behind the cause is generated/determined out of something other than personal free will. If free will does not exist then that which is governing/determining things to happen in a certain way are out of the power/thresh-hold of personal free will.

If free will doesn't exist, then it doesn't really make sense to say that anything is outside its power, since there is no power to begin with.

I'm simply asking kevin for the evidence/logic behind his discredit of 'free will'

If everything is the result of causation then free will is impossible because everything is determined, so nothing can be free at all. If something were outside of causation then it would be completely random, having nothing to influence it, so it couldn't really will anything. We have the illusion of free will because it's not possible for us to know what decision we will actually make until we have already made it.

and what governs and/or what power is generating and determining the outcomes of all things that transpire in the Universe.

"Governing" and "power" are causal phenomenons, so this question doesn't have any basis. A thing that has an effect on another thing immediately places both in the realm of causation, so a power standing outside the realm of causation is an impossibility.

freelight · Post by **freelight** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:39 pm

Hi Paul,

I was replying to Prince, actually, but...

Kevin stated that all things are 'caused' - implying that free will was an illusion - this implies that the power behind the cause is generated/determined out of something other than personal free will. If free will does not exist then that which is governing/determining things to happen in a certain way are out of the power/thresh-hold of personal free will.

If free will doesn't exist, then it doesn't really make sense to say that anything is outside its power, since there is no power to begin with.

)========= I think I was basically saying that if total free will does not exist...then free will is not the ultimate determiner as there are always preceding causal factors guiding/determining what appear to be free will choices. My reference to 'power' was to say that a greater directing power is really in control then and free will cannot operate independently of a whole series of causal factors preceding its acts of choosing....which by definition makes free will not entirely free or unconditional.

I'm simply asking kevin for the evidence/logic behind his discredit of 'free will'

If everything is the result of causation then free will is impossible because everything is determined, so nothing can be free at all. If something were outside of causation then it would be completely random, having nothing to influence it, so it couldn't really will anything. We have the illusion of free will because it's not possible for us to know what decision we will actually make until we have already made it.

)=========== Yes, and there may be other perspectives touching these dimensions.

and what governs and/or what power is generating and determining the outcomes of all things that transpire in the Universe.

"Governing" and "power" are causal phenomenons, so this question doesn't have any basis. A thing that has an effect on another thing immediately places both in the realm of causation, so a power standing outside the realm of causation is an impossibility.

)========= while on the subject....I was referring inwardly to the greater Power being divine Will or if one does not wish to include a theistic sense of divine Providence....I suppose one can assume that causal factors lead and guide by their own respective laws of behavior and influence at any given time during the endless sequence of cause/effect dynamics. 'God' is often called the uncaused Cause of all action thru-out the entirety of existence, or at least the laws which are eternally innate within existence in the Universe are sovereign and cannot be resisted. So we could say a kind of providence is at work in the greater Matrix of the Over-conrtolling MIND or Supreme Intelligence and thru the laws that govern all cause/effect.

IF there is no free will...then how much power or influence do we really have over our conditional existence and fate or destiny?

paul

Beingof1 · Post by **Beingof1** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:38 pm

No one has ever seen light. All that one can see is a reflection or a bending of light. It is a common belief that when looking at the sun, the light from it is seen. Light can only be known by and through its effects and reflection.
If a person stares to long at an intense bright light the 'burn' sensation begins to become painful. This is the result of the vibration of higher velocity.
E=Mc2 - reverse the equation and we see that mass or matter is simply energy slowed down to a slower velocity. It is still all just energy - it is a vast ocean of energy beyond comprehension. If it were not slowed down, we could not experience reality as it is known.
If you freeze water into ice cubes they appear as separate entities. This is a good analogy as the ice is at a slower state of velocity than in liquid form. When the heat/light speeds up - the water returns to one substance as the separation no longer exists and is seen as the illusion that it was. It is all one water not several water cubes. At its highest state of velocity water is a gas ;)
Every conditioned thing in Nature reflects the vibrations of every other thing, to fulfill its desire to synchronize its vibrations with every other thing. It seeks union with purpose.

Your consciousness is energy and cannot be separated from the Ultimate Reality. The only way it can be separated is by the perception that one chunk of light/energy is separate from the whole - that is temporary space time thought in motion and it will pass into gas - LOL

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:30 pm

when I was a kid, I remember there was this little kid living next door, two years old at most. her parents loved her so much. I'd often see them playing with her in the front yard...they were such a loving, close family...then one day my mother came running into our house and said, 'the little girl next door has crawled on to the road and was hit by a car...'she died instantly.....beingof1: was this infant on a quest, was she 'seeking unity with purpose...?'

zarathustra · Post by **zarathustra** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:38 pm

there is no unity with purpose, no free will, no determinism, no god, no ultimate, no universe, no totality....there is only IT IS,
....a complete mystery - a beautiful mystery - and the life we live. free your mind....care more for life than it's meaning...

sevens · Post by **sevens** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:37 am

You must consider the effect (purpose) of this event on her parents -

and Everyone.

Causality holds many treasures, that remain hidden - in and for, the future. But, can also, just as easily - remain buried with the dead, in the past.

Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:00 am

Paul wrote:

MG: If everything is the result of causation then free will is impossible because everything is determined, so nothing can be free at all. If something were outside of causation then it would be completely random, having nothing to influence it, so it couldn't really will anything. We have the illusion of free will because it's not possible for us to know what decision we will actually make until we have already made it.

P: Yes, and there may be other perspectives touching these dimensions.

The real key to understanding this is to understand what it means for something to truly be unlimited. The only way you could imagine other possible perspectives is by not conceiving of causality as being infinite. When this is seen clearly, it becomes obvious that no other perspectives are possible.

If you conceive of causality and then you conceive of something else different from it, like a law or a power or a god or something, then you're creating a limit that can't possibly be real as two objects are causally connected to each other by definition.

David Quinn · Post by **David Quinn** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:28 am

Zarathustra wrote:

there is no unity with purpose, no free will, no determinism, no god, no ultimate, no universe, no totality....there is only IT IS,
....a complete mystery - a beautiful mystery - and the life we live. free your mind....care more for life than it's meaning...

You're only revelaing your own limitations here. There is much more to life than the chimpanzee outlook.

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GENIUS FORUMS

Perceptual Reality

Perceptual Reality

Re: Perceptual Reality

Meta-Programming

DIVINITY

CREATION V. CAUSE & EFFECT

cause

Re: cause

causal law

generation

CHIME

Re: causal law

Re: causal law

Science

Re: causal law