A=A

[zarathustra]

Q has just informed me that he has discovered the nature of 'ultimate truth', and here it is A=A...fuck! is that it? I thought it was something esoteric and complicated. Well, I'm not convinced. Ok so lets look at Q's ultimate truth a little closer. A=A. Well, it may do the trick for him, but I'm not convinced, as such simple schoolboy logic is easily demolished by physics, but since no one here is conversant with that particular discipline, I will simplify the matter for you as I see it, albeit, circumlocutively, by way of reason and common sense.A=A is a fact that happens to be true, like fire burns, or if I piss against the wind I'll get wet. but true is not the same as truth, which is a quality or state of being. now lets look at ultimate, what does it mean: it simply means a quality or state of being beyond which no other exists. therefore 'ultimate truth' is a quality or state of being beyond which no other exists. now even if you considered A as a quality or state of being, it is certainly not one beyond which no other states exist. the world is full of states of being that exist, and A doesn't exist beyond these states...IT IS....written by lightening for your edification

[DHodges]

Well, it may do the trick for him, but I'm not convinced, as such simple schoolboy logic is easily demolished by physics, but since no one here is conversant with that particular discipline,

It's amazing, isn't it, that no one here has the slightest bit of education, except you; even more amazing that you know the education of each individual here, given that you have never met them and have only been here a short while.

A large number of people have come through here, dead positive that they are full of all these amazing insights no one else has had or ever thought about before. Strangely enough, the horses they are beating have often been buried for many years. And these arrogant ones never seem understand why no one is jumping to help them dig them up. The people here must be very lazy and dull indeed!

I guess it's kind of understandable, since the archives of this group - which went back quite a ways - have been lost. But still, it is reminiscent of an ten year old boy who thinks that adults are very dull and have no sense of humor, because they don't laugh at the jokes he got off of a Dixie cup.

I guess it's even understandable that many of the people that end up here start out arrogant. It takes a bit of arrogance and ego to jump into a "Genius" group, just as it takes some arrogance to call one's self "zarathustra", as if one just strolled down from the mountaintop, deigning to spread one's wisdom among those who, it is so painfully obvious, are not worthy of receiving it.

Some of these Great Ones, fresh from the mountaintop, may be capable of grasping a simple truth like "A=A". But most are too full of big, important, complicated ideas to deal with something so simple and straightforward. Surely they must already have a firm grasp on such a simple thing! Surely there is nothing there for a Great One to learn!

And yet - if you are not absolutely clear on the simplest, most basic things, complex thoughts will always be hopelessly confused, and you will never know why.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Lets give the bloke a hint then: it's also known as the 'law of identity' and you'll run into it if you decide to examine formal logic and the art of reasoning a bit further.

It has a lot of implications some of which have been discussed endlessly on this board and elsewhere e.g. here and here

[bert]

Yeah,why make it so difficult?

A=A

This is the beginning of knowledge,an equation always equal.

The acceptance of the equality of all things.

[Leyla Shen]

au contraire! bert -- it is the separation of all things.

[David Quinn]

zarathustra wrote:

Q has just informed me that he has discovered the nature of 'ultimate truth', and here it is A=A...fuck! is that it? I thought it was something esoteric and complicated.

You asked for an example of an absolute truth - i.e. a logical truth that is necessarily true in all possible worlds - preferably in the form of an equation. And I obliged.

A=A is a logical principle which goes to the heart of existence, perception and logic, but you shouldn't confuse it with the spiritual knowledge of Ultimate Truth which is enjoyed by enlightened people. To reach that kind of knowledge you have to, among other things, refine your thinking until it reflects the principle of A=A perfectly - that is, refine it until it becomes perfectly consistent and rational from top to bottom. At root, people are ignorant of the nature of Reality because of contradictions in their thinking.

Well, I'm not convinced. Ok so lets look at Q's ultimate truth a little closer. A=A. Well, it may do the trick for him, but I'm not convinced, as such simple schoolboy logic is easily demolished by physics,

What's an example? People, in their naivity, often try to bring up examples from quantum mechanics, but it doesn't do them much good. As surreal as the quantum realm might be, there is nothing in it which even begins to challenge the supremacy of A=A. How could there be?

but since no one here is conversant with that particular discipline, I will simplify the matter for you as I see it, albeit, circumlocutively, by way of reason and common sense.A=A is a fact that happens to be true, like fire burns, or if I piss against the wind I'll get wet. but true is not the same as truth, which is a quality or state of being. now lets look at ultimate, what does it mean: it simply means a quality or state of being beyond which no other exists. therefore 'ultimate truth' is a quality or state of being beyond which no other exists. now even if you considered A as a quality or state of being, it is certainly not one beyond which no other states exist. the world is full of states of being that exist, and A doesn't exist beyond these states...IT IS....

If I can just pull your head out of the dictionary for a moment, I consider something to be ultimately true if it cannot be falsified by any set of circumstances or line of reasoning. In other words, it isn't a provisonal theory, like those found in science, which can be falsified by new evidence or a change of perspective. An ultimate truth is literally beyond the possibility of falsification. That is what makes it ultimately true.

-

[sevens]

David,

A=A is a powerful weapon. But, it is only a component of Ultimate Truth. The truths that the Quantum World holds, only reflect those you arrive at after A=A is solidified, and exhaled. What you find in the vapor trail, is a universe that revolves around linear and non-linear time (essentially, 'no time'). Causality, in all its glory, is as vast and complex as the Quantum World -- scanning events in the NOW, through linear and non-linear thought - for Energy. When your world becomes a universe of the Self (arrived at through these dynamic thought patterns), then, Creation is possible. You transcend the duality of A=A, and enter into 1=1 -- enabling the alignment and linking of events, into and through, Infinity.

-- This creates Unity.

[zarathustra]

as usual Q twists concepts and arguments to suit the occasion. he is expert at fitting a round peg in a square hole, and if it doesn't fit bash it with a hammer until it does.... or go into spiral of denial (lies)...if you look at the exchanges between Q and I before the A=A question came up you'll see QUITE CLEARLY that the ultimate reality in question has nothing to do with formal fucking logic but with pure metaphysics. if that is the case, then my observations are RIGHT: you cannot measure the immeasurable...chronologically from some arbitary point of logic. sevens even concedes this when he says that A=A is 'only a component of ultimate truth...' apart from sevens, none have made this distinction clear, but instead have choosen to rave like lunatics at the moon, or put their doc martins on and kick! kick! kick!


written by lightening for your edification

[zarathustra]

Dhodges...if that is your little portrature at the side, then you look more like a fucking wrestler than a genius...wait, perhaps you are a genius wrestler, I mean, what the fuck has your response got to do with A=A? ok, as usual most of your post grapples with me, tossing me to the canvas then attempting to hold me down....you make a good body guard for Q





written by lightening for your edification

[David Quinn]

zarathustra,

if you look at the exchanges between Q and I before the A=A question came up you'll see QUITE CLEARLY that the ultimate reality in question has nothing to do with formal fucking logic but with pure metaphysics.

It involves straightforward deductive reasoning applied to issues that are beyond the scope of science to deal with. It isn't metaphysics, at least not in the way you mean it. Metaphysics is a process of asserting unprovable theories based on arbitrary assumptions. The process that I advocate is nothing like this. It is strictly grounded from start to finish.

if that is the case, then my observations are RIGHT: you cannot measure the immeasurable...chronologically from some arbitary point of logic.

You mean, like what scientists try to do?

sevens even concedes this when he says that A=A is 'only a component of ultimate truth...' apart from sevens, none have made this distinction clear, but instead have choosen to rave like lunatics at the moon, or put their doc martins on and kick! kick! kick!

I've already acknowledged this distinction in my previous post.

-

[zarathustra]

example of Qs twists and turns, how he ADDS LITTLE BITS that were not present during the original discourse, purely for the sake of entertainment no doubt, and to impress all those little pups that follow him around wagging their tails and licking his lying arse.............don't believe me, then check out his last post - its all there. I mean you all claim to have these fantastic powers of observation, I'm surprised you missed such a obvious mote point......



Q: 'you asked for an example of absolute truth'


me: yeah....


Q: 'i.e, a logical truth?


me: dahh? ahaa...no.


'that is necessarily true in all possible worlds'


me: dahh, no dude, I asked for an example of absolute truth, for you to prove that it exists, anywhichway....




written by lightening for your edification

[unknown]

YOU ALL ARE FOOLS. BABBLING BELIEF WHORES!.

[zarathustra]

Q, all I can say is, you have a gift for rhetoric, and have become expert at fitting round pegs in square holes,you jump, you twist, you turn, you lie, you commit the crime then call the police, which coincidently, happen to be you...you could talk the arse off an afghan camel, turn water into wine, but to the talented, your intentions are 'see through'






written by lightening for your edification

[David Quinn]

If you want to get a better idea of my philosophy, you should check out my ebook - Wisdom of the Infinite. It might help the discussion become more informed and relevant.

-

[unknown]

Do not agree. When you agree to something , you accepting it as a truth, which is a false assumption.

How do you know that?. Keep babbling fools.

Quinn is a moron. He likes to babble.

All humans are morons. no exception. Everyone like to puke excess .....

Ask question, Never agree or disagree. Never take sides. You will lose.

[unknown]

I am with zarathustra kid. Atleast he is asking questions. It is a start.

Far better mental state than what quinn has. Quinn assumes there is enlightened people. what a monkey.

You can't answer. Stop trying to answer your mind and shut it down...

Let it be alive. Bubble with energy...let chaos rules.... hahaha :)

[unknown]

If you like to talk to yourself ...here is my msn id : Unknnown@hotmail.com... There is some truth.... :)

[unknown]

When "death" knocks at your door, you will not speak theories, you will not argue...you will be in awe and with full of fear then none...your mind will be released from your body ....

Theories are good and enchanting as long as you have enough energy to waste.

Ask questions, it will lead the way. Never agree or disagree.

peace
unknown

[David Quinn]

zarathustra,

example of Qs twists and turns, how he ADDS LITTLE BITS that were not present during the original discourse, purely for the sake of entertainment no doubt, and to impress all those little pups that follow him around wagging their tails and licking his lying arse.............don't believe me, then check out his last post - its all there. I mean you all claim to have these fantastic powers of observation, I'm surprised you missed such a obvious mote point......



Q: 'you asked for an example of absolute truth'


me: yeah....


Q: 'i.e, a logical truth?


me: dahh? ahaa...no.


'that is necessarily true in all possible worlds'


me: dahh, no dude, I asked for an example of absolute truth, for you to prove that it exists, anywhichway....

The two are related. The absolute truth of Nature (i.e. emptiness) is both logically coherent and necessarily true in all possible worlds. Like A=A, it is utterly unfalsifiable. Hence, the connection between the two. A=A is the fundamental principle of logic - it applies utterly everywhere, without exception, and it is the primary vehicle for comprehending the absolute truth of Nature.

What is the absolute truth of Nature? It is what is realized when one fully understands the truth that all things are causally created and lacking inherent existence. Again, you should check out my ebook for a fuller explanation.

-

[zarathustra]

to show that I'm willing to learn, I would apprreciate it if you clarified the following for me dear berty..(1) is there a difference between 'the law of identity' and ultimate truth? please explain....(2) is it possible using the law of identity to discover ultimate truth? please explain...what is the difference between 'an ultimate truth' and ultimate truth. is ultimate truth singular or plural in nature - or both? (3) in terms of origin, or chronology, which preceeded the other: the law of identity or ultimate truth? please explain. you may need to factor in here not only the whole of human history, but history itself, as well as time and space.....it ok, I can wait...

thanks for your lesson in textbook logic berty, but you need to push the boundaries a bit ol' boy...isn't that what genius is all about?


written by zarathustra for your edification

[unknown]

I can't ask you to "stop" babbling theories....it is impossible for you..

Just like you dump physical waste , you need to dump your extra energy in some form....you like to puke...you can't stop it as long as you own your body...

TRUTH does n't belong to human world. Human world is full of lies and illusion wrapped around it. TRUTH has no place , it will burst the human bubble. No one likes to hear it even thoug they aware of it. They rather like to believe in illusions.

Human existance is an illusion...

peace
unknown

[David Quinn]

The Babbler wrote:

I am with zarathustra kid. Atleast he is asking questions. It is a start.

Far better mental state than what quinn has.

It's funny, but in all the time you have been here, I've never seen you ask a single question. Why is that, do you think?

-

[Leyla Shen]

If you like to talk to yourself ...here is my msn id : Unknnown@hotmail.com... There is some truth.... :)

!

unknown, you're an idiot! But you make me laugh. That's something.

[unknown]

I am an idiot ? I do not exists. HAHAHA :)

People fall when they have a high opinion of themself. Thats the danger. I do not exists.

This quest for geniusness has limited scope....

Because humans are shrinked fool. He is shrinking with his own belief.

peace
unknown

[zarathustra]

there you go again adding another little bit, ultimate truth now becomes the "absolute truth OF NATURE..." there is a qualitative difference between 'absolute truth' ( which I've never mentioned ) and 'ultimate truth.'....please Q, stop bringing things into the argument that weren't there before absolute=complete, perfect: these concepts can be 'rounded off' as it were i.e. they have relevance to space/ time 'in themselves' therefore they are not ultimate - get it? ultimate=beyond which no other exists or is possible - dahh!




written by lightening for your edification