IT IS...

[zarathustra]

DavoQ.........my man, all thought arises from a primary conception of the world. take the old Greeks:their whole philosophy /art/archetecture/religion/ was based on a relationship to time and space. for them 'infinite' had NO MEANING. dahh! The wise and not so wise Greekos believed that if you sailed long enough in one direction you'd fall off the edge of the world, whoops!! They also believed that the 'arc' of the sky had nothing to do with the earth being round but flat and that it was in fact a lid, much like the one on top of my wok, the difference being that it had holes in it (what we call stars) through which the light of the void shone.

DavoQ ( sounds like a borg designation ) It has always been a source of curiousity to me, why a lot of the so-called geniuses on this board keep telling me what I am and know...'you are merely...' 'all you seem to know'...'you are conditioned by'... 'you are nothing but...' you could at least try and substantiate these claims in some way. it's enough to give a bloke a fucking complex!!! for example, telling me that I obtain my info from 'popular textbooks' from which comes, as you say, 'my postmodern conditioning...'give me a break will ya...is this how your professor taught you to respond to argument? Are you sure you don't have a degree in journalism?

you're right about science, it is nothing more than empirical speculation and you're right about its theories being uncertain.
This is of course basic textbook stuff...primary school level I'd say. you need to however, look a little closer at empiricism, which presupposes that all knowledge comes from sense experience about which we have ideas (Locke) every day objects being collections of ideas (Berkleeee). and this davoQ is perhaps one aspect of empiricism you overlooked in order to report the news: empiricism denies the possibility of going beyond the 'subjective' experience(Hume) which I think would put it at odds with human reason.

Gezzz, so you can PROVE that absolute truth exists...that's quite a claim. I'm all ears...how about a little forumlae to demonstrate? perhaps a truth tree? an equasion? in physics we have lots of them....show me your logic...convert me.....make me believe...

in conclusion, the difference between empiricism and my position, is that empiricism relies on signs, like science, like every fucking thing. but I am the simple observer of everything I see: the stars, colour, shape, sound...which ALL existed long before isms, words, ultimate reality, philosophy, religion bla bla bla...IT IS. THE SIGNLESS. THE MYSTERY. LIFE....and it's right here davoQ, its right here, so don't try and pull the wool over my eyes, to trick me with metaphysics or enslave me to logic,
for my reason tells me that life is more, much more...resistance is futile!

ps: thanks for maintaining this site, I think you do a good job.



written by lightening for your edification

[Matt Gregory]

OMG!!! Hume!!!

"The most lively thought is still inferior to the dullest sensation"

<faint>

[David Quinn]

Zarathustra wrote:

DavoQ.........my man, all thought arises from a primary conception of the world. take the old Greeks:their whole philosophy /art/archetecture/religion/ was based on a relationship to time and space. for them 'infinite' had NO MEANING. dahh! The wise and not so wise Greekos believed that if you sailed long enough in one direction you'd fall off the edge of the world, whoops!! They also believed that the 'arc' of the sky had nothing to do with the earth being round but flat and that it was in fact a lid, much like the one on top of my wok, the difference being that it had holes in it (what we call stars) through which the light of the void shone.

All you're doing here is describing a particular stage in the progress of science. What's that got to do with anything? It has nothing to do with wisdom or philosophy.

The chances are, most of the scientific theories we subscribe to today will seem just as antiquated and silly in the centuries to come. It is therefore wise not to be too attached to these theories, and certainly it would be incredibly foolish to start promoting them as though they were absolutely true.

No doubt those few men who were wise back in the days of Ancient Greece had the same level of insight and detachment.

DavoQ ( sounds like a borg designation )

As it happens, people sometimes call me Q.

It has always been a source of curiousity to me, why a lot of the so-called geniuses on this board keep telling me what I am and know...'you are merely...' 'all you seem to know'...'you are conditioned by'... 'you are nothing but...' you could at least try and substantiate these claims in some way.

I would have tried, but you have been blindly shooting from the hip in a most gungho way. You've come storming onto this forum and openly stated that we are all deluded simply because we make use of philosophic concepts, such as "God", "spirit", "absolute truth", etc. You were doing your best impersonation of a raving postmodernist twit. I'm glad to see that you have finally decided to cast this aside for a while. Now we can begin to talk.

you're right about science, it is nothing more than empirical speculation and you're right about its theories being uncertain.
This is of course basic textbook stuff...primary school level I'd say. you need to however, look a little closer at empiricism, which presupposes that all knowledge comes from sense experience about which we have ideas (Locke) every day objects being collections of ideas (Berkleeee). and this davoQ is perhaps one aspect of empiricism you overlooked in order to report the news: empiricism denies the possibility of going beyond the 'subjective' experience(Hume) which I think would put it at odds with human reason.

And yet right here, you are going beyond empiricism and asserting what you think is an absolute truth - namely, that it is impossible for anyone, anywhere, to go beyond subjective experience. Interesting, no?

Gezzz, so you can PROVE that absolute truth exists...that's quite a claim. I'm all ears...how about a little forumlae to demonstrate?

No probs.

A=A

Sink your teeth into that one.

perhaps a truth tree? an equasion? in physics we have lots of them....show me your logic...convert me.....make me believe...

I think that will be very difficult. At the moment, you're very wedded to a particular religion. The only way around this is for you to start opening up your mind a bit.

in conclusion, the difference between empiricism and my position, is that empiricism relies on signs, like science, like every fucking thing. but I am the simple observer of everything I see: the stars, colour, shape, sound...which ALL existed long before isms, words, ultimate reality, philosophy, religion bla bla bla...IT IS. THE SIGNLESS. THE MYSTERY. LIFE....and it's right here davoQ, its right here, so don't try and pull the wool over my eyes, to trick me with metaphysics or enslave me to logic,
for my reason tells me that life is more, much more...resistance is futile!

Philosophy, properly practiced, is also a process of stripping away every unnecessary conceptual veil, leaving only pure Reality behind. The difference between us is that you don't go anywhere near far enough with it. You're still draping the world with postmodernist veils.

-

[Blair]

Quinn,

Is seeing through perception at a cellular level, enlightenment?

Understanding that all matter is an illusion of light? This seems incredibly simple, but it makes perfect sense.

I would like to think I have abandoned delusion, but I still have the attachment to my senses, and what they strike in me. How is it possible to exist as a sentient being, while being also aware of the transient nature of what is?

[David Quinn]

prince,

Is seeing through perception at a cellular level, enlightenment?

No. Sometimes, spiritual people can experience "samadhic" states, in which their perception becomes very vivid and it seems as though they can see into the molecular or cellular structure of everything. But that's merely an altering of consciousness, a greater focusing of the mind. Whether it becomes spiritually enlightening or not depends on whether you can direct this powerful consciousness towards solving the ultimate riddle of existence.
The sense perceptions of the enlightened person are essentially the same as the ordinary person's, with the exception that his mind is far more powerful and clear.

Understanding that all matter is an illusion of light? This seems incredibly simple, but it makes perfect sense.

That's what I would call a stepping-stone truth. It helps undermine the conventional view of matter, but it's not the end of the story. It's important to go on with it and realize that light too is an illusion.

I would like to think I have abandoned delusion, but I still have the attachment to my senses, and what they strike in me. How is it possible to exist as a sentient being, while being also aware of the transient nature of what is?

What do the senses strike in you?

-

[Blair]

What do the senses strike in you?

-

Shapes, forms, colors, sounds. How can I block them out, unless I poke my eyes out and cut my ears off. I cant.

How is it possible to percieve reality directly while ignoring memory?

[David Quinn]

prince,

Shapes, forms, colors, sounds. How can I block them out, unless I poke my eyes out and cut my ears off. I cant.

Why do you want to block them out?

How is it possible to percieve reality directly while ignoring memory?

Why do you want to ignore memory? Who told you to do that?

Enlightenment is all about perceiving Reality within the forms around us. You don't have to block anything out. There is no such thing as a "hidden Reality" behind the forms.

"There is nothing infinite apart from finite things" - Zen saying.

-

[Matt Gregory]

Why do you talk about annihilating boundaries then, David? You wrote this little bit, didn't you?

Destroying all boundaries, you eliminate the need for things. Things having disappeared, change is seen to be unreal. Once change is gone you are rid of movement. Unmoving, there ceases to be time. Gone is time; - and purpose is now eliminated. No purpose means no enlightenment, and thus all things are free to follow their natural course.

[sue hindmarsh]

David wrote:

Enlightenment is all about perceiving Reality within the forms around us. You don't have to block anything out. There is no such thing as a "hidden Reality" behind the forms.

A “hidden Reality” is a very popular concept for most peoples of the world, such as; devotees of religions, worshipers of woman, wallowers in love and compassion, and then your everyday garden variety – believers in the self.

To cut through these concepts you need a mind sharpened by reason. But what I see today are people filling their lives with even more of these “hidden Realit(ies)”. They spring up like weeds all over the place. Passionate followers of everything from new agers - where everything is magical and mystical, to believers in not believing – those gutless wonders that happily side step every thought.

What is to become of the human race if it continues to hide within its fantasies?

Does anyone even care?

I suppose if one did care it might put a dent in your own fantasies.

Sue

[David Quinn]

Matt Gregory wrote:

DQ: Why do you talk about annihilating boundaries then, David? You wrote this little bit, didn't you?

Quote:
Destroying all boundaries, you eliminate the need for things. Things having disappeared, change is seen to be unreal. Once change is gone you are rid of movement. Unmoving, there ceases to be time. Gone is time; - and purpose is now eliminated. No purpose means no enlightenment, and thus all things are free to follow their natural course.

I did write that. That's all part of seeing Reality within the forms around us. The core task is to break the spell of things inherently existing and one of the first steps towards doing this is recognizing that things lack a beginning and end.

You don't perceive something apart from, or outside of, forms when you become enlightened. You simply recognize the true nature of these forms.

-

[David Quinn]

Sue Hindmarsh wrote:

A “hidden Reality” is a very popular concept for most peoples of the world, such as; devotees of religions, worshipers of woman, wallowers in love and compassion, and then your everyday garden variety – believers in the self.

I'm not sure that I'm following you. In what way do worshippers of women and wallowers in love believe in a hidden Reality?

-

[zarathustra]

I suppose I'm just happy being alive...in my post-post modernist universe I don't need all that superimposed holy-rolly stuff....for me WHAT IS is enough. it frees, it doesn't bind, nor is it conditional upon esoteric knowledge, belief, faith or anything else...and it is there my dear geniuses right outside your door. and when you and I are dead and gone along with our theories and our gods - it will STILL be there! part of a beautiful little poem by a fellow traveller

and I want to say wait, listen, look
why am I so stunned
to silence, made full of rapture
by the light, the flashes of light
that burst between
the northward throbbing geese....

june owens


I suppose to some of you blokes its just the fucking sun and a few noisy birds...well, IT IS.....



written by lightening for your edification

[David Quinn]

I don't want to think. My head hurts.

-

[zarathustra]

Q, something amazing has just occured to me:you want to get rid of all 'things', 'eliminate boundaries,' so you can sink your teeth into the real meat...whereas, I want to embrace all boundaries, to see them in context, in all their perspective and depth. I think, quite possibly - you are a nihilist!








written by zarathustra for your edification

[zarathustra]

in a post-post modern universe thinking is very important, we 're just shifting the focus, from nothing - to something!
and lots of 'em...

now, lets deal with your head ache. I suggest you take two asprins with a glass of warm milk... you'll feel better in the morning...

[David Quinn]

It's all relative. From your perspective, yes, I am a nihilist. I reject everything you believe in. But this doesn't mean that I try to eliminate boundaries - whatever that means. Instead, I simply recognize the reality of what boundaries are - namely, mental projections on our part.

Boundaries only exist in the world by virtue of our imagining them to exist. A wise person is someone who recognizes this fact and follows its implications to the very end.

-

[Jason]

I suppose I'm just happy being alive...in my post-post modernist universe I don't need all that superimposed holy-rolly stuff....for me WHAT IS is enough. it frees, it doesn't bind, nor is it conditional upon esoteric knowledge, belief, faith or anything else...and it is there my dear geniuses right outside your door. and when you and I are dead and gone along with our theories and our gods - it will STILL be there!

What will still be there? If you are dead and thus have no experience of this "thing", does it not thus take faith to believe in such a thing which is beyond your experience? In fact doesn't it take faith just to assume that you will even die? Doesn't asserting anything about the future require faith? The future is not "WHAT IS".

[David Quinn]

zarathustra wrote:

in a post-post modern universe thinking is very important, we 're just shifting the focus, from nothing - to something!
and lots of 'em...

It's just a pity that you didn't want to think about any of the "somethings" that I provided in my post earlier today. You're such a fake.

-

[zarathustra]

jason...

death is a repeat performance, it is part of life...part of the mystery...faith has nothing to do with it...life goes on after death...I lost my cat last week and burried it in the back yard, the cat ceased to exist, but the back yard is still there...certain things can be deduced reasonably...I don't know what you want me to say here. your reductionist logic can be taken to absurd ends...all I can suggest is that you employ a bit of reason

Q...

you are like a leaf in the wind, one minute you blow this way, the next, that...to seek truth, first yea must be truthful...




written by lightening for your edification

[Jason]

jason...

death is a repeat performance, it is part of life...

You believe in reincarnation do you? Hindu perhaps?

part of the mystery...faith has nothing to do with it...life goes on after death...I lost my cat last week

You(and therefore I in my reply) were talking about your death, not your cats death. Pay attention.

and burried it in the back yard, the cat ceased to exist, but the back yard is still there...

How do you know the backyard is still there? Got an eye on it at all times have you? You're a faithy faithy boy I knew it!

certain things can be deduced reasonably...I don't know what you want me to say here. your reductionist logic can be taken to absurd ends...all I can suggest is that you employ a bit of reason

You don't like absurd ends? Oh well there's no accounting for taste.

[zarathustra]

jason=wanker

[Jason]

jason=wanker

Sometimes I have to be, in order to knock the wankery out of post-post modernists. My arguments still stand....

[Beingof1]

Instead, I simply recognize the reality of what boundaries are - namely, mental projections on our part.

Well said sir,
And this place of continual expansion is where we experience the mind being stretched in a place or state of seeing behind the waves and particles of light that intersect universal concrete thought patterns. It is expansion both inward and outward as there exists no boundaries in our experience or manifestation of what appears to us as an external world.

What exists in all possible worlds is what exists in this world , A=A in the fact that your consciousness is equally what is in all times and all places. To communicate this thought to those that have not experienced life beyond all boundaries of projection is challenging eh? It is mutual expansion, never forget that as you share with others you yourself intensify your own experience.

It is not about right and wrong, it is about being OK with me. The way to heal the entire world of all its suffering is to heal our own heart and soul if you will. The way to cure others is to cure ourselves or "physician heal thyself". To believe ultimately that there is someone else that can be cured leads to post - modern drip blues.

Boundaries only exist in the world by virtue of our imagining them to exist. A wise person is someone who recognizes this fact and follows its implications to the very end.

-

As science tries to test and falsify everything from atoms to galaxies - they seem to get stuck ad infinitum - LOL.

In the meantime as you expand you take us all with you. The head can move no faster than the tail, it is not weighting you down. It is the necessary friction or resistence that energy (for the lack of a better word) uses to transform itself into infinite possibilities and in so doing expands the usefullness of being in and of itself.

We will grow into infinite possibilities as this is the evolution of the Ultimate - that is its inherent nature, to become more of what it is so to speak. As science allows itself to get 'stuck' we who are at the cutting edge of the All must not allow ourselves to become entrenched and embrace the flow of what is.

At the same time we are always aware of the observer that never changes or as some have said the 'Ascendant'. The one that never changes just observes while giving freely to every experience without judgment. It is selfless in its flow. The rain does fall on the just and the unjust equally.

Let it rain

[sevens]

Tip o' the hat, tug of the belt buckle, and a little shimmey.

:)

Onward!

[zarathustra]

beingof1:

new age mental masturbation mind spew.........ghosts, ghosts and more ghosts.....progressive thinking my arse!!! as for sevens, he'll buy anything for an extra clap...