Kelly's Truth Paper

[Kevin Solway]

I thought we should have a special topic for the discussion of Kelly's "Truth Paper":

http://truthpaper.50webs.com/

[Leyla Shen]

The urge to have sex and reproduce is not a biological need. Unlike the urge to breathe, eat, take water, sleep, urinate, defecate, and maintain thermal comfort, if the urge to have sex and reproduce isn't met, the human body won't die.

So, what you are saying is that you value your own physical life over the life of the race?

Maybe, if less people valued their own lives, they would solve the overpopulation problem by commiting suicide.

Ironic.

If there are no borders, boundaries -- no separation -- if all things lack inherent existence, how can you say that one is any more or less a biological need than the other?

What would you call the biological changes in the body related to periods and ovulation? How are they different than the urge to take a crap? Hunger pains?

It's all bloody psychological.

[jabbermonkey]

there were some lovely insights in your paper, but also some overwhelmingly convoluted thinking.

on your "philosophy of thought", so to speak:

you first define consciousness as value-creation, then proceed to describe values as meaningless, then further as "empty." You seem to be engaged in a strange convolution of taoist thought and western philosophy. if something is empty and meaningless, and if you further prove this fact, then you should take Kerouac's advice and stop writing. Language, according to taoism, obfuscates reality and creates division where there is none. Therefore, if this is your premise, you would be better served by burning your paper (or removing it, since it is electronic) and spending the rest of your life in silence.

in seeking to connect with others through your writing, you demarcate them as "Other;" in doing so, you tacitly recognize them as something distinct from yourself, which according to your thought is not the case. You needn't talk to me; you are me. Therefore, we should stop talking that we may talk.

but, if concepts and values are not "empty," but instead filled with intellectual content, ie, the abstract content of concepts, then we must begin the arduous process of meticulously categorizing the world, recognizing that our categorizations are not discrete, such as a rock, but indiscrete, as all thought is. your conundrum concerning the emptiness of thought seems to be more a conundrum of language and not epistemology.

i'd recommend two books to help you in your quest, which i believe is a valuable one:

Kant, Immanuel. Critique of Pure Reason.

Wittgenstein, Ludwig Von. Philosophical Investigations.

on the distinction between biological needs and desires, i think you once again confuse yourself through language. A person does not desire something because it is necessary for existence; she desires it because she is inclined to, whether out of evolved instinct, or socialized notions of worth. Desires are no less potent just because they are not connected with a definitive biological need--just ask the celibate or ascetic. Animals will often forego eating and drinking in order to have sex. This is not insane; it is a manifestation of the "prioritization" of which you often speak.

cheers

[Foresta Gump]

I'm wondering if castration stops natural urge.

Kelly, such a brilliant mind has caused me deep sorrow, know this in your heart and mind. Even though our human chain is linked together, when one link becomes separated, we struggle for strength. Great minds realize their great minds, but nobody else does, the great mind creates a difference, but doesn't realize she dosn't have to, because the difference is already there. She only needs to show it, as she has done. The big difference here is you have created a minus from your body, which was natural before, despite what you think. It doesn't matter what you think its the actions of those thoughts that count!

I see an honest, self searching, brilliant mind at work here.
When you reach 50, you'll pretty much know who you are. Just think, as smart as you are at 28, when you reach my age you'll be that much wiser when you realize how stupid you really were. Or perhaps you realize that now.

Has your castration attributed to your depression?
Are you clinally depressed?

By all means continue your path, and do not depart from the path in which fate has you assigned, there is a place for you.

Read You Were Meant To Be by Foresta Gump here on the forum, its a poem, but its for real! It means all of us who live!

I'll be reading every word of your work, because you're interesting, honest, daring, persuasive, intelligent, I could go on, but I don't want to push the word stupid upon you.

Friend from the heart

Donna Thompson

[kjones]

So, what you are saying is that you value your own physical life over the life of the race?

No, the life of wisdom is more important to me than my physical needs, which are playing a role in the life of wisdom.

Maybe, if less people valued their own lives, they would solve the overpopulation problem by commiting suicide.

Suicide is already the case, where people don't value their individual conscience. But this is actually a major factor in the overpopulation problem.

If there are no borders, boundaries -- no separation -- if all things lack inherent existence, how can you say that one is any more or less a biological need than the other?

The same causal process substantiates the reasoning for the former, as for the latter.

What would you call the biological changes in the body related to periods and ovulation? How are they different than the urge to take a crap? Hunger pains?

Eating, sleeping, and so on are like work. I do as little of that as i need to. I define biological as referring to life, so biological needs are those that maintain the life of the thing I value.

They don't include false psychological needs. The bodily processes that make babies aren't compulsary for the individual. I could have periods and ovulation ceased, as they're unnecessary, as long as i have testosterone therapy to maintain bone density. As it is, it's a nuisance, because the hormonal fluctuations exacerbate my moods. I may be able to overcome this, however, and still avoid having a sex change.

It's all bloody psychological.

If most people valued intelligence like I do, how much more careful the process of educating the young would be.


.

[kjones]

you first define consciousness as value-creation, then proceed to describe values as meaningless, then further as "empty." You seem to be engaged in a strange convolution of taoist thought and western philosophy. if something is empty and meaningless, and if you further prove this fact, then you should take Kerouac's advice and stop writing.

Nothing I can do can prove Reality's emptiness. It's always the case, so the best thing to do is to recognise it, and help others to as well.

Language, according to taoism, obfuscates reality and creates division where there is none. Therefore, if this is your premise, you would be better served by burning your paper (or removing it, since it is electronic) and spending the rest of your life in silence.

Why do you think Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu wrote so prolifically?

in seeking to connect with others through your writing, you demarcate them as "Other;" in doing so, you tacitly recognize them as something distinct from yourself, which according to your thought is not the case. You needn't talk to me; you are me. Therefore, we should stop talking that we may talk.

Emptiness isn't absolute nothingness, or absence of things. How can you ignore that something is always present? Everything is created by, and is, Reality. That's all we ever experience, and are distinguishing. To know it, the same process of making demarcations is used, only this time, everything is "divided" into oneness.

You and I have the same ultimate nature. But we clearly are distinguishable through how Reality happens to have created us.

but, if concepts and values are not "empty," but instead filled with intellectual content, ie, the abstract content of concepts, then we must begin the arduous process of meticulously categorizing the world, recognizing that our categorizations are not discrete, such as a rock, but indiscrete, as all thought is. your conundrum concerning the emptiness of thought seems to be more a conundrum of language and not epistemology.

It's a false conundrum, because it's based on misunderstanding the meaning of emptiness, as explained above.

i'd recommend two books to help you in your quest, which i believe is a valuable one:

Kant, Immanuel. Critique of Pure Reason.

Wittgenstein, Ludwig Von. Philosophical Investigations.

As far as I know, neither of these men understood emptiness. Can you provide any examples of their wisdom, as succinctly as possible?

on the distinction between biological needs and desires, i think you once again confuse yourself through language. A person does not desire something because it is necessary for existence; she desires it because she is inclined to, whether out of evolved instinct, or socialized notions of worth. Desires are no less potent just because they are not connected with a definitive biological need--just ask the celibate or ascetic. Animals will often forego eating and drinking in order to have sex. This is not insane; it is a manifestation of the "prioritization" of which you often speak.

You've confused rational valuing with instinctive valuing.

[kjones]

I'm wondering if castration stops natural urge.

What's an unnatural urge?

The big difference here is you have created a minus from your body, which was natural before, despite what you think.

I'm biologically female. If you're referring to my sterilisation, there isn't much removed from the body during a tubal ligation.

Has your castration attributed to your depression? Are you clinally depressed?

Depression is about the ego wanting to be satisfied. Being sterilised helped contribute to the depression, which was a good sign.

For the purposes of being granted a Disability Services Pension, a psychiatrist and psychologist diagnosed me as having depression.

I'll be reading every word of your work, because you're interesting, honest, daring, persuasive, intelligent, I could go on, but I don't want to push the word stupid upon you.

I appreciate that.

[Foresta Gump]

Its the brilliant minds that are on a disability pension, the government would rather have 2 handfuls of mediocre-minded than 1 handful of genius-minded running the show.

[Foresta Gump]

Do you not like being female Kelly?

Whatever your gender, a person is beautiful, unique, there is only one of you, why change that, look at Michael Jackson as a perfect example, he didn't like himself being a black man, did you see what he looked like before he had all those facial alterations? He was normal looking before he had all that freakish work done on him

[Leyla Shen]

Yes, I think a certain number of individuals such as yourself would be very good for the children. However, I do not equate intelligence with wisdom. Did you mean to say intelligence, or wisdom?

One of the biggest problems around here is the use of redefined words without disclosing the particular and exact meaning intended.

For instance:

I define biological as referring to life, so biological needs are those that maintain the life of the thing I value.

I'm happy to know how you define "biological." However, I think the most commonly used term for what you describe is probably something on the order of "altruistic" -- if the thing that you value is wisdom itself and not your body (which only plays a small part), that is.

I mean, it kind of becomes hardly worth speaking at all.

[DHodges]

These are the parts I personally found intriguing:

Since February 2004, I haven't worked for money, or engaged in sexual or purely social relationships.

Other people here have also found ways to avoid working. Do you think that is necessary? Why?

I work, but at a job that has little social interaction. I work with numbers all day, and have a fair amount of free time.

Recently, I decided not to have a home.

I'm curious as to how you live, how that works. Do you stay at friends' houses? On the street? In shelters?

Do you think that not having a home is generally a wise course of action, or something that just happens to work for you? What drove your decision?

It helps stimulate the process, and combat the tendency to depression.

I also have a tendency toward depression, which I combat mostly with Prozac and exercise. How does not having a home help you fight depression?


Thanks!

[jabbermonkey]

You've confused rational valuing with instinctive valuing.

according to your paper, all value--therefore all valuing--is conscious. therefore, there is no such thing as instinctive valuing, so i'm not sure what you meant. despite your unclear language, i think you meant to say that I confused socialized desire with biological instinct, which i didn't.

i did misunderstand your use of the word emptiness. as far as i can estimate what you mean by it, aside from a feeling or intuition, Kant also describes it; however, he uses the word space. we can imagine emptiness (that is, an imaginary room with no content) but we cannot imagine nothingness, which would be the absence of space itself, the absence of the possibility for an object to occupy that which we are imagining.

when you refer to Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, i hope you understand that they, if they had recognized the logical consequence of their ideas, should also have stopped writing--if, in fact, enlightenment were their goal. i suppose if one wanted to bring others to the river, as it were, before they crossed, then it makes sense. admittedly, i haven't read more than the most superficial parts of their work. i'll read more.

if you cannot prove Reality's emptiness, then how do you know it is, in fact, empty? furthermore, even if it is true that it is empty, your inability to prove it would lead one to the silence i just mentioned.

the use of the word Reality to describe a whole and, by describing it creating of it something it is not, seems contrary to your purposes. Reality is unified; in short, we are Reality; Reality is us. We are we, which is to say that we are I and he and all, that is to say, nothing. Therefore, again, silence seems the best course.

kant's wisdom: the Copernican Revolution of Mind...We may live in a world of chaos where we impose an order that exists only in our minds. Order is a construct of our minds, and not necessarily a component of Reality. This does not mean abandoning reason, because, as human beings, we cannot escape our minds except through suicide; instead, it means recognizing that what we describe through philosophy is not Reality, but the Reality of our minds.

wittgenstein's wisdom: 1) What we cannot think we must pass over in silence. 2) All problems of philosophy are a problem of language. 3) Truth defines the limits of our consciousness, not the limits of reality, which is beyond our consciousness.

[MKFaizi]

I think she did a swell job on her Truth Paper. I think she is quite intelligent, obviously.

I think that it is great that she does not need to work for a living.

I think that she should be careful about becoming a QSR. She should be careful of accepting too much praise and encouragement. She should be careful about being used as an example. I don't think that becoming a man means that one who is born female must by necessity become masculine in appearance.

You are not a mannequin, Kelly.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

As for depression, I have come to accept the fact that I am naturally depressed. I took Zoloft for a while. I still take it infrequently when I know that I have gotten down to the marrow of the bottom.

I am not depressed because of ego or egotistical attachments. Been there, done that. Pretty elemental and silly stuff.

So called clinical depression is a very heavy weight that I do not think can be moved. I don't think it is a bad thing.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

How benevolent of you to offer your wisdom without charge.

Kevin's direct influence on you is easily discerned. With your shaved head, you do kind of look like a disciple.

I do not say that in a mean-hearted way.

Statement of the obvious.

Faizi

[Ras866]

I feel sorry for the girl...I know that is the last thing she would probably like to hear. But I think she needs to wake up and smell the roses. You have one life to live ... Why live it in a miserable depression? I don't think anything, even the "Sacred Truth", is worth being goddamned miserable for the rest of your life for. If the the Truth is so damn Great, and Masculinity is so goddamned Great, why is it that its followers look and feel like a sack of shit?

[Blair]

You are the sack of "shit", Ras866.

[bert]

As always ;it's her choice.

And this is what she faces:

Contact with reality:The impact of flesh on flesh by every illogical means is the only logical thing.

Love shall cease when copulation is abjured.

The beliefs we make are the best for us,whatever their truth.Any belief is sanctified by the believing,and justified by results.

This is for all the "schools"(including zombie-zenists):
all destroy their own arguments by having to make use of that which they deny.

[Leyla Shen]

Scientists lead the human herd in valuing ignorance and falsity. When they discover new things and become excited about their accomplishment, they confuse the certainty of having discovered something, with the false assumption of discovering all the causal conditions for the thing. A scientist claiming he has experimental control, is lying.

Yet, even you -- testoserone and sex change -- in your pursuit of and dedication to ultimate truth, value science.

Even you value the fruit of its ignorance and falsity.

How can this be?

Where is the rationality in this compulsion?

[Leyla Shen]

What will you do with a penis?

[MKFaizi]

In the US, a depressed person cannot simply get a pension.

In order to receive welfare for depression, you would have to be medicated up the yingyang. Also prolonged stays on psych wards. Electrical shocks. Seroquel. Zyprexa. Depakote.

Once they have turned you into a medicated, zapped out zombie, then, you might get a pension -- and a room in an adult home.

If you ever saw "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," an adult home is a lot like the chronic ward -- lots of drooling.

Depressed people have to work here -- unless they are independently wealthy or medically lobotamized.

Faizi

[kjones]

Those with genuine comments and/or questions about The Truth Paper won't mind waiting a few more days for my replies. I'll look at the posts made after Saturday noon, after this post.

For now, this is what I judged most interesting:


Leyla

I think your attachment to sex blocks you from understanding the nature of Reality. Maybe you could ask yourself why sex is so important to you. For instance, why are you defining life as intrinsically sexual?

Yes, to be sexually attractive, people often use a shallow type of masochism or sadism. Or a shallow type of misogyny. So I'm not surprised that many think this is what I'm doing.

This isn't what I'm doing. Undermining my ego is a logical response to understanding the nature of Reality. (Being intelligent is the same as being wise, of course). Knowing that the boundaries of me, or of anything, are all caused, it's truthful of me to keep remembering this. This is what I understand by spiritual masochism.

Misogyny is an extension of this, because it counters my instincts to be sexually attractive, which I know is an illogical instinct. It's not about building up a self-image, but remembering how to overcome the preoccupation with self.





David H

I'm not recommending my psychological experiment as a general solution for depression. It's a temporary medicine, to suit my own peculiarities. Living in a tent and cycling is my plan to force me to exercise, which helps me to think clearly. I'm going through a phase of having a lot of energy. Doing this can help me face the bad habits more easily. Eventually I'll give up the medicine.

The better, and more courageous solution, is to think immediately of Truth as soon as these bad habits arise. The solution to any problem is cause and effect, because it makes everything, including all solutions.

Remembering the Infinite is like a solution to depression, because its opposed to egotism, which is the basis of depression.

As far as I can tell, depression is an acute form of egotism, in that what one sees as the solution to one's egotistical hell is actually the problem. However, there's a tiny opening in depression. All the introspective energy of depression, might actually stimulate awareness of one's backwards-thinking, if one has enough desire to find the solution.





Kelly Jones

[Jason]

What will you do with a penis?

Good question and here are some ideas:
http://toxyn.org/~m0xx/images/puppetry-penis/

(I think this makes obvious the direct link between penises and geniuses - we all know vaginas aren't capable of such things!)

(sorry couldn't help myself)

[Leyla Shen]

(Happy to see this thread has reappeared.)

I think your attachment to sex blocks you from understanding the nature of Reality. Maybe you could ask yourself why sex is so important to you. For instance, why are you defining life as intrinsically sexual?

I asked you first. If you need testosterone to encourage masculinity, is that not an affirmation of life's "intrinsic, sexual nature"?

I am no more attached to sex than you are.

Yes, to be sexually attractive, people often use a shallow type of masochism or sadism. Or a shallow type of misogyny. So I'm not surprised that many think this is what I'm doing.

I never took it that way, at all.

The rest of your post requires a little more thought. I shall respond soon.

[Leyla Shen]

Jason: the mind boggles, eh? :)