Free Will

[David Quinn]

I'm happy to affirm the reality of free will, as long as it is kept in mind that, deep down, it is really God's will.

Even this affirmation is God's will.

-

[LooF]

i am not quite sure if everything in the world moves along with "God"

[analog57]

I'm happy to affirm the reality of free will, as long as it is kept in mind that, deep down, it is really God's will.

Even this affirmation is God's will.

-

Please explain how blind causality is concordant with God's will?

And should any "teleological imperative" arise anywhere in the world, that too is ultimately composed of blind, aimless cause and effect.

[David Quinn]

Blind causality is God.

"Everything happens by God's will" is simply a more poetic way of saying "everything is caused".

-

[LooF]

only things that are really with God

is things made of this world

but that is everything?

[Leyla Shen]

Round and round the garden
Like a teddy bear
One step
Two step
And a tickly under there!

[David Quinn]

Loof wrote:

only things that are really with God

is things made of this world

but that is everything?

What isn't a part of God?

-

[LooF]

a thing that is not!

[analog57]

Blind causality is God.

"Everything happens by God's will" is simply a more poetic way of saying "everything is caused".

-

Cause precedes effect.

why?

[analog57]

If time is infinite then causality goes infinitely into the past and infinitely into the future. That means the universe is also spatially infinite but all observations point towards a finite universe. There are several paradoxes associated with infinite spacetime also. I hope you can answer them with your timeless wisdom. Or shall we descend into infinite madness, never to fly over the "cuckoo's nest" ?

[analog57]

Round and round the garden
Like a teddy bear
One step
Two step
And a tickly under there!

Treebeard:
Hobbits? Never heard of a Hobbit before. Sounds like Orc mischief to me. They come with fire, they come with axes. Gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning. Destroyers and usurpers. Curse them!

[Leyla Shen]

Playtime...

[Beingof1]

David

We only have "free will" in the sense that we are capable of making choices and initiating courses of action. In other words, we are not mindless puppets whose every thought and action is generated directly from an external agent. The conscious mind is a reality; it can reflect, ruminate, cogitate, and come up with considered decisions through its own inner workings. We are considerably different from, say, cars and rocks in that we aren't simply passive objects buffeted about by circumstances.

I agree with your premise that our 'free will' is the will of the Absolute. Consider another conclusion on this matter.

This begs the question - what is observing cause and effect?
If we are considerably different than cars and rocks; I am not that which is not conscious; I know which knows not. I am aware of cause and effect and naught exists for me unless I know it.

I have the will to be and so do you; desire manifested. The cause must be at least equal to or greater than the effect. The idea that oblivious momentum could effect existence and create conscious awareness without a previous desire or experience of awareness is not cause and effect; it is car and rock becoming conscious life.

You are the working model or better said, the reality of the universe in and of itself. You are no different in any way than the ultimate reality and ergo; the exact duplicate/image as a fractal of the whole.

Desire and awareness springs from the Absolute. To be in an experience of so much caring energy that it cannot be contained and must be released from itself and permeate everything in the totality.

In other words -- how can the effect be in awareness if the cause is blind? Perhaps the stillness of the Ascendant is filled with desire. It could be why change and flux never cease.

[Leyla Shen]

Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans in the finite space of a planetary ecosystem as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who do survive.

-Pardot Kynes, First Planetologist of Arrakis

[David Quinn]

Loof wrote:

DQ: What isn't a part of God?

Loof: a thing that is not!

There's no such thing.


-

Analog wrote:

Cause precedes effect.

why?

It precedes it by definition.

-

[David Quinn]

Beingof1 wrote:

Desire and awareness springs from the Absolute. To be in an experience of so much caring energy that it cannot be contained and must be released from itself and permeate everything in the totality.

Even if that is true, then it is still just another blind causal process happening - which means that we are back to square one again. Everything resolves back into blind causality. Nothing is ever free of it, not even consciousness and desire.

In other words -- how can the effect be in awareness if the cause is blind?

How can the effect be fire if the cause is cold? How does anything emerge from what is not it?

Perhaps the stillness of the Ascendant is filled with desire. It could be why change and flux never cease.

The core reason why change and flux will never cease is because nothing inherently exists in the first place, not even stillness or desire.

-

[LooF]

but it is everywhere!

[Beingof1]

DavidQuinn:

Even if that is true, then it is still just another blind causal process happening - which means that we are back to square one again. Everything resolves back into blind causality. Nothing is ever free of it, not even consciousness and desire.

Let us turn the page and take it a step further. You are addressing the needed surrender that is lacking in most of the world. To relinquish the illusion of control can only free us from suffering - in this regard I hold you in mutual respect as a kindred brother.

You yourself said

we are not mindless puppets whose every thought and action is generated directly from an external agent. The conscious mind is a reality; it can reflect, ruminate, cogitate, and come up with considered decisions through its own inner workings.

This is embracing the reality of our experience. The seed contains the germ of the tree it will grow into. The cause was the life of the tree -- the effect is another tree. Your mother and father contained within them your own consciousness the seed of your own life.
In order for consciousness to exist there must have always been a cause of the first magnitude or meta mind that generated out from itself desire to experience this reality. The reason for this is you experience desire and the will to live.
I became the effect because the cause had the momentum to make a choice. I know this because I make the choice to be alive. I cannot usurp the initial cause (that is what Kevin and you are helping others overcome) as it became who and what I am.
If the first cause were blind- I would not be able to see it.

How can the effect be fire if the cause is cold? How does anything emerge from what is not it?

Ah- and to the heart of the eternal question. How few in the world would even have the presence of mind to have asked this question. Unlike the Darwin theory that uses blind faith for its momentus assumption- you are not satisfied with surface answers.
Physics 101- energy can never be destroyed. It can change form, but will always be. Your consciousness is energy. You have always been the universe and shall continue to be so. You are the eyes of the blind universe and shall continue to give the meaning you attribute to the value of what is perceived.
You are the first cause and the last effect. The alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.

The core reason why change and flux will never cease is because nothing inherently exists in the first place, not even stillness or desire.

It only exists when you believe it does. There is none other that makes that decision.

[LooF]

so small!

time is little!



we are not allowed to know when we are humans, why do we think?

or are they looking for someone that CAN actualy think past?



CAUSE precedes effect?

that is only in time's well

what exists in our world is the only thing affected by this!

[analog57]

Analog wrote:

Cause precedes effect.

why?

It precedes it by definition.

-

How does the abstract correspond to the concrete, such, that one can define some observed aspect of physical existence as an absolute truth?

so in effect, you are saying that the map IS the territory?

[David Quinn]

The map maps the territory, doesn't it. We normally define "cause" to be that which either precedes the "effect" or exists simultaneously with it. We then observe the world and apply these labels where appropriate.

These labels are just conceptual tools, nothing more. In reality, neither causes nor effects exist because everything is beginningless and endless. The entire Universe - past, present and future - is really just a single instantaneous event. There's no room for either cause or effect.

-

[David Quinn]

Beingof1 wrote:

DQ: Even if that is true, then it is still just another blind causal process happening - which means that we are back to square one again. Everything resolves back into blind causality. Nothing is ever free of it, not even consciousness and desire.

B: Let us turn the page and take it a step further. You are addressing the needed surrender that is lacking in most of the world. To relinquish the illusion of control can only free us from suffering - in this regard I hold you in mutual respect as a kindred brother.

Not only to relinquish the illusion of control, but to take it up again in a wise, detached manner. To become a spiritual activist.

DQ: we are not mindless puppets whose every thought and action is generated directly from an external agent. The conscious mind is a reality; it can reflect, ruminate, cogitate, and come up with considered decisions through its own inner workings.

B: This is embracing the reality of our experience. The seed contains the germ of the tree it will grow into. The cause was the life of the tree -- the effect is another tree. Your mother and father contained within them your own consciousness the seed of your own life.
In order for consciousness to exist there must have always been a cause of the first magnitude or meta mind that generated out from itself desire to experience this reality. The reason for this is you experience desire and the will to live.
I became the effect because the cause had the momentum to make a choice. I know this because I make the choice to be alive. I cannot usurp the initial cause (that is what Kevin and you are helping others overcome) as it became who and what I am.
If the first cause were blind- I would not be able to see it.

The theory of evolution by natural selection adequately explains the existence of our desire, will and consciousness without the need to invoke a meta-mind or the like, so I'm not quite sure what you are trying to do with this.

As I say, it is the very nature of creation and change that things emerge out of entirely different things. If you take sodium (a reactive metal) and chlorine (a poisonous gas) and mix them together, you get salt (a tasty spice). Likewise, it is only natural that consciousness and desire emerge out of unconsciousness and desirelessness. Where else can they come from?

DQ: How can the effect be fire if the cause is cold? How does anything emerge from what is not it?

B: Ah- and to the heart of the eternal question. How few in the world would even have the presence of mind to have asked this question. Unlike the Darwin theory that uses blind faith for its momentus assumption- you are not satisfied with surface answers.
Physics 101- energy can never be destroyed. It can change form, but will always be. Your consciousness is energy. You have always been the universe and shall continue to be so. You are the eyes of the blind universe and shall continue to give the meaning you attribute to the value of what is perceived.
You are the first cause and the last effect. The alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.

I'm not following you here. How does my being "the eyes of the blind universe" (a neat turn of phrase and I agree) lead to the conclusion that I am "the first cause and the last effect. The alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end"?

-

[Beingof1]

DavidQuinn:

The theory of evolution by natural selection adequately explains the existence of our desire, will and consciousness without the need to invoke a meta-mind or the like, so I'm not quite sure what you are trying to do with this.

How does amino acids, water, and electricity explain counsciousness?
How can inert matter become a carbon based life form? This question is far from being answered by nothing but conjecture through a leap of faith in nothing but wishful thinking.

As I say, it is the very nature of creation and change that things emerge out of entirely different things. If you take sodium (a reactive metal) and chlorine (a poisonous gas) and mix them together, you get salt (a tasty spice). Likewise, it is only natural that consciousness and desire emerge out of unconsciousness and desirelessness. Where else can they come from?

With all due respect - You cannot compare a chemistry synthesis unless it can be duplicated into sentient awareness. That is like saying either I evolved from the abstract or there is a pen in my pocket. The reason I say this -- consciousness and life that is aware is unique in and of itself without comparison.

We must use logic and plain common sense. My consciousness arrived by and through previous consciousness ie: cause and effect. If we follow this now dusty little trail back to its source we come to one reasonable conclusion.

I'm not following you here. How does my being "the eyes of the blind universe" (a neat turn of phrase and I agree) lead to the conclusion that I am "the first cause and the last effect. The alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end"?

You cannot know (experientially) anything or anyone in total. You can only experience you and your awareness. You cannot define yourself nor compare yourself as you defy all descriptions and definition. The only comparison that can be made is you and this. You are experiencing life and as you already stated it is "reality".

This reality that you experience is it a partial reality or a whole reality?
Can you recall an experience you had before you existed?
Can you remember when you began to be aware?

[Kevin Solway]

How does amino acids, water, and electricity explain counsciousness?

Evolution is more than just these things, otherwise there wouldn't be any evolutionary science, it would be just chemistry and physics.

How can inert matter become a carbon based life form?

What do you mean by "inert matter"? All matter is dynamic and changing. It is all just as alive as we are, although some of it has a longer lifespan.

On the other hand, nothing at all is the same for two consecutive moments. It is all changing.

consciousness and life that is aware is unique in and of itself without comparison.

It is no more unique than anything else. Any piece of dirt is unique. And just as there are billions of unique pices of dirt, there are billions of unique conscious lives.

We must use logic and plain common sense. My consciousness arrived by and through previous consciousness ie: cause and effect. If we follow this now dusty little trail back to its source we come to one reasonable conclusion.

Using that reasoning salt can only come from previous salt.

[Troglodytes]

But at least we can describe salt using some of the same parameters (i.e. physical properties) as we use for sodium and chlorine. At that level, the change from one form to another is not so hard to comprehend. By contrast, consciousness and physical matter seem like such fundamentally different things that it's hard to imagine one causing the other.

I'm not disputing the suggestion that consciousness does arise from matter; I have little doubt that it does. But I'll be buggered if I can imagine how.