Where is the boundary on intelligence?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
thesynapseislife
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Where is the boundary on intelligence?

Post by thesynapseislife »

Can a "normal" person transform into a genius with years of work? It would be interesting to find out.

Let's take myself as an example. I'm 22 (young) and I'm healthy - but no genius. However, I do like to think. I love chess (however sometimes exasperating) and I'm infatuated with self-discovery, psychology, the sciences, and basically any "Theory of Everything" that sounds plausible.

So, what makes a genius? Without question they are born. But are they also bred? What is genius? Why are people of average intelligence smarter then a typical "Homer Simpson"? My thoughts and observations are that the smart ones generally (have to be careful here I think) use more logic and information processing, etc. then the Homer's who generally "fly by the seat of their pants". For sake of ease and to avoid mislabeling let's call those abilities 'A'. So, in logical ascension why is a genius smarter then someone of average intelligence? Well, I would have to say a higher power of 'A'.

Based on my own level of comprehension and definition of the problem then the challenge would be to see if the average person can start increasing his/her level of 'A'. The born geniuses are already A^2 (let's say), whereas the average population is A.

This, I'm sure, you all knew from the start. But now we are more clear on the actual requirements, more or less, that make a genius. So, I ask you all, does intelligence have a limit? Given an entity with a certain amount of intelligence, is there a limit to the amount one can have? Disregard the amount of intelligence an African Grey Parrot can have compared to a Human. Let's stay within our own species. Also, don't worry about the mentally handicapped. The problem is, can a healthy person make considerable gains of intelligence? We can certainly lose/lower it with drugs, alcohol and apathy, and most T.V. shows :P So, where is the line drawn? Is there a line??

This subject fancinates me so please if you have an opinion, by all means share. :)
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DHodges
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Re: Where is the boundary on intelligence?

Post by DHodges »

At the moment, the knowledge on this topic is limited for practical reasons.

One such practical limitation is the amount of brain that can be stuffed into a human head.

A brain is certainly an amazingly complex piece of gear, no doubt. But in twenty years (or thirty or forty), it's pretty likely that computers that are of the same order of magnitude of computing power as a brain can and will be built.

Computers have an advantage over brains in scalability and ease of direct interfacing. Once computers of that power are built, it will be relatively easy to tie them together in parallel processing, and the human brain will no longer be the limit on intelligence.

On the other side, interfacing between a brain and electro-mechanical devices is also making good progress, and the boundary between the human and the machine will likely become blurrier.

So, thirty years from now, the answers about the bounds of intelligence may be a lot clearer than they are now, just from practical experience.

So, what makes a genius?
The issue has been discussed here many times, and I think the general consensus is that intelligence alone is not enough to make a genius. True genius also takes insight and wisdom, and the connection between insight, wisdom and intelligence is not completely clear, other than that a certain level of intelligence (at least) is required.
thesynapseislife
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Post by thesynapseislife »

One such practical limitation is the amount of brain that can be stuffed into a human head.
True, but from what I've read and observed is that connections, quality of neurons, and plasticity take precedence over size - look at Stephen Hawking.
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Philosophaster
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Post by Philosophaster »

"Some people can instantly solve mathematical conundrums that leave even their most intelligent colleagues floundering. New research suggests that such genius is made, not born. You could even be one yourself.

In fact, there are probably more gifted souls around than you think. Look out for waiters, for instance, who can reel off 20 main course selections without glancing at the menu.

Such prodigies have a fairly simple technique, researchers in France and Belgium now reveal -- storing information in their almost boundless long-term memory. The rest of us try and juggle facts and figures in our more limited short-term memory, a separate part of the brain.

The nature of the stored information is not important -- it could be music, how people like their steaks or, as in the case of 26-year-old German Rüdiger Gamm, arithmetic.

Gamm first displayed his remarkable skill on a television gameshow -- calculating two-digit numbers to their thirteenth power in his head and rattling off the square and cubic roots of each answer.

But by his own admission he was "very bad at arithmetic" at school and had no interest in maths until he was 20, when a calculation that revealed what day any date fell on sparked his curiosity. To prepare for his television appearance he trained with numbers and calculation procedures for hours every day; he now displays his skills for a living.

Mauro Pesenti, of the Université catholique de Louvain in Belgium, and colleagues, investigated Gamm's brain -- watching it tick as he tackled tricky sums. They compared the activity of his grey matter with that of several other people, as they now report in Nature Neuroscience1.

The brain scans show that Gamm uses different regions to other people for calculation. In fact, he can switch effortlessly between his short-term memory and long-term 'episodic' memory. Like some computers, he can expand his crammed-full data banks by storing information wherever there is space to spare."

http://www.nature.com/news/2000/001228/ ... -5_pf.html

Granted, Gamm developed only a somewhat narrow ability, but it's still amazing that someone can develop savant-like abilities if he just practices enough. Perhaps in some cases what leads to genius is the will to persevere, constantly and at great intensity, at one's chosen pursuit.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Synapse,

I believe you're confusing genius with raw intellect. A genius is not necessarily someone who can process information rapidly or think in complicated ways. It's how you use your intellect which determines your level of genius.

I don't consider Hawking and Einstein to be geniuses, for example. Although they each possessed a powerful intellect, they ended up wasting it on the trivialities of science, instead of using it to become philosophically enlightened and spiritually wise. I'm sorry, but that isn't genius. That's foolishness.

Genius is as much about character as it is about intellect. Thus, genius is not just something you are born with. It has to be nurtured and worked upon throughout your life. I dare say that many people in this world are born with the potential to become geniuses and could become geniuses if they properly applied themselves - i.e. if they applied their time and intellect wisely. But unfortunately, hardly anyone ever attempts this. They are too seduced by science and the current happenings of the day. And so the path of genius is very rarely trod.

Genius means knowing how to reach out beyond one's culture and era, beyond the current theories, beyond the crowd, and directly grasp what is timelessly and universally true. Neither Einstein, nor Mozart, nor Da Vinci did this - and hence, in reality, behind all the outer glitter of their lives, they were little more than wasted talents.

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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Philosophaster wrote:
Granted, Gamm developed only a somewhat narrow ability, but it's still amazing that someone can develop savant-like abilities if he just practices enough.
Our society has corrupted the word "genius" so much that it is now used to refer to autistic people.

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Philosophaster
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Post by Philosophaster »

I know. I wasn't referring to Gamm as a genius, but as a self-made savant. I don't consider savants geniuses but rather extremely talented.
thesynapseislife
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Post by thesynapseislife »

DQ, your thoughts on Hawking, Einstein, and Davinci are illuminating. It never occured to me that genius and intellect would be different. I guess I still have to really think what genius is because it's hard for me to thoroughly seperate the two.

However, I think Einstein in his persuit for an ultimate unification of physics must have been spurred on by a fragment of genius. I'm sure you've heard quotes by him referring to how he only really wants to "know the mind of God" i.e. to know reality. Physics was his way of doing it. He did get caught up though. But on the other hand how far can philosophizing really get you? At some point everyone, especially Einstein it seems, needs some concrete information to find what is timeless and universal.
thesynapseislife
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Post by thesynapseislife »

Dhodges,

If, say, in fifteen years it will be possible for the upper-middle class to buy a computer chip that could be interfaced with the human brain to dramatically improve higher brain fuctions, would you buy it?

Needless to say this technology would be a turning point in human evolution. Imagine if the majority of everyone that could afford this technology bought it and subsequently dramatically enhanced their brain functions!
thesynapseislife
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Post by thesynapseislife »

So, does a genius by this forum's definition need a large amount of intellect as well as wisdom? Because I'm facinated in what reality really is, what life is, what the Universe is, who I am, etc. etc. but I lack the intelligence that society's definition of genius requires me to have. So what am I then? I don't feel like an average member of the population, but I don't feel like someone with an IQ of 200 either.

Please excuse the introversion and self-discovery blather, all I'm really trying to do is find the truth.

One more thing:
I dare say that many people in this world are born with the potential to become geniuses and could become geniuses if they properly applied themselves - i.e. if they applied their time and intellect wisely.
I do feel (if it's even possible) that I have potential to become a genius, maybe not by raising IQ, but more along the lines of learning to apply what I DO have, like you mentioned. What, in your opinion (DQ) would be a good start for me?
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

You don't need to have en enormous intellect to understand Reality and become wise. An average intellect is perfectly adequate. You need an ability to reason proficently, which most people already possess, and an intuitive ability to discern what is fundamental to an issue, which is a lot a rarer. You also need the character to pursue the truth diligently and single-mindedly, and a preparedness to eject all falseness from your thinking.

Those with very high IQs tend to be at a disadvantage because they too easily get caught up in complex academic issues and lose sight of what is fundamentally important in life.

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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Synapse,
I do feel (if it's even possible) that I have potential to become a genius, maybe not by raising IQ, but more along the lines of learning to apply what I DO have, like you mentioned. What, in your opinion (DQ) would be a good start for me?
Studying wise texts is a good start. There's plenty of good material on The Thinking Man's Minefield.

I'd personally recommend Hakuin, Huang Po, Kierkegaard (on my site there is some excellent material of his), Nietzsche (Thus Spake Zarathustra), and Kevin Solway's "Poison for the Heart". But there is plenty of other good stuff there as well.

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thesynapseislife
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Post by thesynapseislife »

WOW! Thank you DQ for that site! I plan to immerse myself right away. :) I love to read, but getting good material is rare, and expensave!

I'll be sure to check your site out too, I glanced at it already, but I'll be more in depth soon and maybe if I find something that intrigues me we can start a thread about it.

Thanks again.
unknown
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Post by unknown »

Issue is Honesty.

How honest you are?.

You all are dishonest monkeys.

You know you all are belief whores. You make up things as you go along.

Wisdom , intellegence ...blah blah is useless crap. You will die like crap anyway.

DO not waste time with vocabulary.

No need.

When you are reduced to nothing (non existance), everything will disappear.

The more you become believer of something the more you are confined to ideas to encourage this belief.

David quin is a fool , so is all humans. Reasoning can only get you to somelevel until you become 100% honest with yourself.

Your dependency for belief , ideas ...will undermine your goal.

When the question cease to exists , you have arrived.

That happens when you lose all your beliefs.

peace
unknown
thesynapseislife
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Post by thesynapseislife »

Wisdom , intellegence ...blah blah is useless crap. You will die like crap anyway.

DO not waste time with vocabulary.

No need.
So why then are you even talking? Leave us alone.
unknown
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Post by unknown »

I am your illussion. You always create one.

You can't live without illusion. You wake up from one and create another.

You all are afraid of reality.

You all like to dream up something. You like to attach things to yourself to make yourself exist and be something.

Keep wasting time. Thats all humans good for.

Ask questions, Never agree or disagree.

peace
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Let him be, Synapse. He's our resident babbler.

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Blair
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Re: Where is the boundry on intelligence?

Post by Blair »

thesynapseislife wrote:Can a "normal" person transform into a genius with years of work?
Yes, of course you can. just as easily as you can transform yourself into anything else. It depends on where your priorities lie. Becoming a "genius" has its draw backs too. IF you devote enough time to thinking, reflecting and examining the true nature of what you are, as being, you will become a genius. Life becomes a trival issue.
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Jamesh
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Post by Jamesh »

I'd personally recommend Hakuin, Huang Po, Kierkegaard (on my site there is some excellent material of his), Nietzsche (Thus Spake Zarathustra), and Kevin Solway's "Poison for the Heart". But there is plenty of other good stuff there as well.

I'd recommend Genius News and the The Hour of Judgement - Radio Transcripts on their sites, and anything David has written. Very worthy material.

Poison for the Heart is a mish-mash of mostly crap. Hakuin, Huang Po are all too confusing until you are more advanced - but still worth a glance . Kierkegaard is just a f'n useless romantic idiot. Leave "Thus Spake Zarathustra" until you are far more advanced - no point just yet.

Be careful of the allure of the "majesty" of what this mob talks about - it is an illusion.
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Neurons

Post by sevens »

Hey Synapse,

Learn your psychology. Keep your fervor, and you'll spark a fire. Find what really ignites your Ego - inspiration is 99% of creativity. I cannot stress the importance of unraveling your own delusions, ego defenses, and complexes - for your perception. It is work, but its rewards are infinite.

Intelligence can expand.

Will it.

(Introvert)
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DHodges
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Brain Chip

Post by DHodges »

thesynapseislife wrote:If, say, in fifteen years it will be possible for the upper-middle class to buy a computer chip that could be interfaced with the human brain to dramatically improve higher brain fuctions, would you buy it?
Yeah, I would, assuming the side effects are not too terrible.

I mean, I already have a headache, most days.
thesynapseislife
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Post by thesynapseislife »

Jamesh:

Yeah, I already read about one-fifth or so of "Poison for the Heart". My opinion so far is the guy has some good points and certainly some worth while experience to share, however, it's mostly from a satirical point of view with loads of negative connotation. Although, sadly, life is not happy all the time so nevertheless I will finish it anyway.

Hey Synapse,

Learn your psychology. Keep your fervor, and you'll spark a fire. Find what really ignites your Ego - inspiration is 99% of creativity. I cannot stress the importance of unraveling your own delusions, ego defenses, and complexes - for your perception. It is work, but its rewards are infinite.

Intelligence can expand.

Will it.

(Introvert)
Thank you sevens. I honestly appreciate everyone's support! And I do believe that wisdom is probably the greatest gift one can have/work at. I know that sounds like a commercial but I don't mean for it to be, I'm just trying to express my emotions here.

I am very much an introvert. And I've always known that people lie to themselves and actually believe it, which is one of the reasons I never lie to myself - I try not to at least. I think even subtly people believe lies they know darn well aren't true. The subconscious is a facinating area, my next field of study.

On another note and relating to psychology. has anyone tried the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator personality test? A decent one can be found here. I'm a "ISTP". :)
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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory »

Jamesh wrote:Poison for the Heart is a mish-mash of mostly crap.
No way, PFTH might be a disorganized mish-mash, but it's not crap. It's probably the best book on wisdom in existence today. I actually think the disorganization is one its strengths. It makes a lot of seemingly trivial points, but every point made in that book is pointing directly at Reality...very directly! It's a book that seems a lot easier than it really is, and that's probably its greatest weakness.
Lennyrizzo
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best book

Post by Lennyrizzo »

Matt Gregory


Poison for the Heart is ...probably the best book on wisdom in existence today.
Do you think the author agrees with you?
Why do you put it above Mr Quinn's book?
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Dan Rowden
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best book

Post by Dan Rowden »

I'm not sure that looking at literary works in a hierarchical way benefits anyone. Who is it that is making such judgements? A wise person? Obviously not. If something resonates with you and inspires you then it is worthwhile.

Poison is a work for someone with the "eye". If it doens't resonate with you I suspect you are still blind. Genius News is certainly a valuable resource as dialogues of that nature are often very stimulating in a way that normal philosophical prose sometimes isn't.

Dan Rowden
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