Hugs, handshakes and the herd

[TryingToWakeUp]

This sounds awsome. I like this mental image. I also feel hot for Leyla after reading her comments about lusting for criminals :). Somehow I think she is chinese.

[sevens]

Fool!

Why do you think she addressed you in a completely different thread?

Damn.

Hey, wake up in a locker room. Whatever motivation you need.

[TryingToWakeUp]

Somebody is getting angry. Sevens, sorry if I hurt your ego. I admit I a kinda did it on purpose. Shame on me :).

[TryingToWakeUp]

And, I was sure referring to "Waking to the smell of coffee and sunshine" when I mentioned the mental image.

[Leyla Shen]

Matt: You could be emotionally outside of it, like someone with autism. You wouldn't share their emotions, so in effect you would be in a different world outside of them.

Leyla: Is this an example of what you would consider to be an indifference to the herd?

Matt: Yes.

How are you making the distinction between "to" and "within" the herd, then? Does the autistic person not find some value or have some need that causes him to remain within the herd? How would he survive alone -- and, if he can, why doesn't he?

Matt: He was asking you what the difference is between differentiation and identification, no?

Leyla: Yes, that’s correct.

Matt: And what is the difference again?

Precisely.

[Matt Gregory]

How are you making the distinction between "to" and "within" the herd, then?

I'll use the handshake as an example. When someone sticks out their hand, it triggers certain reactions within us. We may think that the person wants to shake our hand. We might realize the person accepts us and is looking for a sign of our acceptance. We might start making calculations as to whether or not we should shake this person's hand or not, which would probably amount to trying to figure out if we need this person's acceptance later for some reason. We might just feel sorry for him and shake his hand to make him feel better. All this type of stuff is inherited from the herd because it's all based on being included in the herd or including the other person in the herd. That's what being within the herd means is playing this game of inclusion and exclusion. The fundamental root of it is the ideas of "self" and "other". But the autistic, or to give another example a small child, experiences none of this. When he sees a hand, a hand is all he sees. All the herd mentality surrounding it is missing. Likewise with a sage, but the sage consciously rejected it in the past and if he is wise enough he no longer experiences it at all.

You can be outside the herd physically or outside the herd mentally. There is no direct causal relation between the two. Being mentally outside the herd is what I consider to be "outside the herd". A person can live as a hermit deep in the woods and if he does nothing but think of friends, family, sex, proving himself and that sort of thing then he is still entrenched within the herd. But a wise sage can live among the herd without engaging in the mental contortions of the herd, so he would never enter the herd.

The herd as seen by the herd animal doesn't really exist. It's a false construct created by the person's ignorance and insecurities. The herd as seen by the philosopher does exist, though, because he goes beyond the herd animal's false view of the herd and looks at the cause of this false view, knowing that its cause is the only reality it can ever have. If he never does anything to cause the herd, the herd cannot exist for him, which makes it impossible for him to enter into the herd. If the world's population was made up of nothing but wise sages, then there would be no herd at all, even though there would be people working together and cooperating. So, the mere fact of living in a society doesn't necessarily mean one is part of the herd.

[sevens]

Well,

Projection is bad.

(sometimes)

And lingering hubris, too!

And here I thought I'd sealed every hole in my heart...

Fire a teacher, and water a turning wheel.

(this therapy session has ended - and where it began, too.)

Good night.

[Blair]

I think what has to happen is that the attack on a person's self has to have a pleasurable effect in order to convince the person to keep attacking himself. I guess humor is the only way to do this--somehow making an indirect attack and turning it into a joke. You would need several indirect attacks to equal the power of one direct attack, but I think it would be a lot more successful. Maybe we should be going to comedy shows instead of studying philosophy. It's kind of hard to try and make a joke, though. Saturday Night Live is proof of that..

Humor is key, yes. Bread and Circus, as the saying goes. Provide either of those and you have power over the masses. There have been comedians who went the extra mile and were driven by a deeper drive to truth, Bill Hicks comes to mind.

Yeah, I would think that even the wisest person would still act in response to the herd, it would just be a contrary response.

I would say as personal wisdom grows, so does ones compassion and tolerance for the herd. Being able to percieve it in all its idiocy does not eliminate the ability to laugh along with it, even if it is in a shameful momentarily slip into oblivion of consciousness.

[Leyla Shen]

My heart is indeed hollow: it serves to amplify otherwise small cues -- like your excited pulse. But my mind is filled with compassion, for I only eat fair game – and even then do not waste a single portion.

How mousely of you to serve as herald, whiskers twitching through your mouse-hole. No, I should think that you know very well the difference between lean meat and tainted cheese.

(I checked out Sam, the Southern-steel-sound man, the first time you mentioned him. I do like Woman King, very much.)

[Leyla Shen]

There is no direct causal relation between the two. Being mentally outside the herd is what I consider to be "outside the herd".

Then, we are in agreement, with one proviso: the only difference (with respect to the herd) between the sage and the autistic individual, or a child, is the wisdom derived from conscious rejection -- which, I reckon, is a big enough difference.

The herd as seen by the herd animal doesn't really exist. It's a false construct created by the person's ignorance and insecurities.

You see how interesting that is? Fantastic. Identification and differentiation.

Well said, Matt.

[sevens]

Leyla,

Thank you for that righteous slap, with your blazing sword. My only whiskers are those that were embedded by witches and snakes - in another lifetime. But, you knew this already (flatter-blah: Respect.)

Back into the wound I dive, with a microscope and tweezers.

[Leyla Shen]

No problem.

I wonder if you've heard Manu Dibango's Biko?

Deep, African harmonies. Lovely. Even lovelier when Gabriel makes his appearance, tinging the dry African landscape with western blue.

When I try to sleep at night
I can only dream in red
The outside world is black and white
With only one colour -- dead
Oh, Biko...

Gabriel's Biko is just as excellent.

You can blow out a candle
But you can't blow out a fire
Once the flames begin to catch
The wind will take it higher
Oh, Biko...

[sevens]

Leyla,

'Biko' is a slow world spinning, 'round like a top.

What's your take on 'Graceland'?

[Leyla Shen]

Well, it's been a long time since I listened to that. I had the LP, until my nephew took advantage of my love for him. He now owns all my albums -- including The Beatles collection in its entirety.

I appear to have exchanged Simon's Diamonds on his souls for Harper's on her inside.

My fondest memories of Simon are with Garfunkel -- or way back in the days of Kodachrome and Mardi Gras: you know, when One Man's Ceiling was Another Man's floor.

[sevens]

I typed some thing. And then something else. And now I've typed this.

Yes, Diamonds.

Did you know that it takes a diamond to play music through vinyl?

---

You remind me of someone, very dear to me.

For a moment there, my heart ate my mind.

[Leyla Shen]

Could’ve sworn I heard you say amen this morning
Showing some kind of sign that you believe
Did it fall from your tongue without warning?
or just another trick to fall from your sleeve
Did I hear you say that you believe in angels?
I guess I bring the devil out in you
But we can both remove our halos
’cause even an angel needs love too

The woman in you is the worry, the worry in me…

Some things never change
Some things never stay the same
But you’re so innocent
I’ll take all the blame
How I hate to remember, for that means the day is past
Sometimes I wonder if I know her, or if I really need to ask

The woman in you is the worry, the worry in me
Woman...

Half-man walks with no shadow of life
He utters his distaste
No apology is expected
Love carved sorry in his face…

Ben Harper - The Woman in You

You remind me of someone, very dear to me.

You have my condolences.

(Yes, I know only diamonds can play music through vinyl.)

[MKFaizi]

I recently read that George Washington never shook hands with anyone. He chose to bow instead.

Personally, I do not object if someone tries to shake hands with me. Somewhat rare since I am female.

Seems pretty meaningless. I see no sense in making it meaningful by objecting.

Faizi