To compare is to judge?

[David Quinn]

You mention a life-and-death quest. Sometimes I feel an anxiety coming up when thinking. It's quite subtle and it tends to get cut off, with a vague idea of the potential for it growing into something more potent. Is this what you might be referring to? Is it just part of it?

Given that serious thinking involves challenging everything in a direct and purposeful manner there is bound to be anxiety involved, particularly in the early stages of the endeavour. That’s natural. After all, the serious thinker is choosing to undermine the very foundations of his place in the world. Not only is he challenging his own deepest beliefs and cultural conditioning, but he is placing himself in conflict with his family, friends and peers, and alienating himself from the human race more generally. And the only weapons available to him are his own reasoning powers and faith in truth. What a mismatch! This is where courage comes into play, and courage implies anxiety.

Is the anxiety you are describing purely of this kind? Or are there other sources of anxiety involved, such as conventional forms of neurosis and mental illness? Not knowing anything about you, I can’t say. It is something you will have to determine for yourself. What sort of thoughts come to mind when you start feeling anxious?

And/Or, Is this life-and-death situation something that comes about once enough insight has accumulated and it's seen that there really is no viable alternative in the worldly world, eg all avenues become closed off and your only way to life is to understand? If so, would you say that that's a necessary condition?

Yes.

It's naturally a scary prospect.

Yes.

Once you have broken through and grasped the very root of everything, then you can broaden back out and start reading the likes of Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, and so on, with safety.

The risk being, a misunderstanding, maybe permanent, I suppose?

The risk is remaining trapped in delusion for the rest of your life.

When a person lacks fundamental insight and has no real desire to attain it, reading simply becomes a passive exercise in strengthening and reaffirming the deepest assumptions, biases and beliefs inside him that remain unchallenged. The neural processes that occur when reading remain stunted and distorted at a superficial level.

When you are genuinely interested in comprehending the ultimate truth, meditative states will start to appear naturally. You don’t have to worry about formal meditation. Wherever the heart is, the mind will follow.

So then, given that the purpose of the texts is for the reader to leave the words and ascend to an urgent, life-and-death quest, and the texts should be used sparingly to deeply meditate on specific passages, I almost get the sense that it doesn't really matter which specific passage I meditate on (assuming it's true and relevant of course)

I tried to follow your advice today. I focused on a specific passage, trying to figure it out. I could more or less form a conceptual understanding of things but that was not very useful in and of itself. I tried to take the next step, which effectively turned into a storm of thoughts going through my head, where I was trying to relate the concept to memories, my immediate experience, trying to reason with it, and so forth. Is that how it's supposed to go - I doubt it because I repeatedly read that the ultimate goal involves the cessation of all conceptual thought. Or, is the storm perhaps supposed to collapse in onto itself once the opposing conflicting thoughts have annihilated eachother? Or rather that seeing all these inconsistencies somehow intuitively spurs the forming of a non conceptual understanding.

A couple of things:

- It’s good that you gave it a go, but you really need to make a whole lifestyle out of it. It has to be constant, day after day, continually seeking to immerse your mind in the ultimate understanding. This should be happening not only when you are sitting in a chair and reading, but also when you are out and about and living your life more generally. Your whole life should be in meditation. The goal is to live directly in reality without interruption, not confine it to a small portion of the mind that enjoys intellectual understanding. This is the only way that shifts at the deepest level can occur. It can take months, or even years, for these shifts to occur.

- Forget about trying to stop thoughts and achieve a blank mind. That is a populist delusion. It won’t lead to enlightenment. It will only lead to hell. Allow the mind to form concepts naturally. Your only focus should be to rationally examine them as they arise and discard them when they prove to be mistaken. As time goes by and your understanding deepens, more and more false concepts will fall away of their own accord. The non-conceptual understanding that the sages talk about arises at the very end of this process.

Enlightened understanding is non-conceptual in the sense that it does not rely on any specific concept to prop it up. It is all pervasive. It infuses all of one’s experiences and thoughts. One literally goes beyond all concepts, not into a black mind, but into infinite freedom.

[Avolith]

You mention a life-and-death quest. Sometimes I feel an anxiety coming up when thinking. It's quite subtle and it tends to get cut off, with a vague idea of the potential for it growing into something more potent. Is this what you might be referring to? Is it just part of it?

Given that serious thinking involves challenging everything in a direct and purposeful manner there is bound to be anxiety involved, particularly in the early stages of the endeavour. That’s natural. After all, the serious thinker is choosing to undermine the very foundations of his place in the world. Not only is he challenging his own deepest beliefs and cultural conditioning, but he is placing himself in conflict with his family, friends and peers, and alienating himself from the human race more generally. And the only weapons available to him are his own reasoning powers and faith in truth. What a mismatch! This is where courage comes into play, and courage implies anxiety.

Is the anxiety you are describing purely of this kind? Or are there other sources of anxiety involved, such as conventional forms of neurosis and mental illness? Not knowing anything about you, I can’t say. It is something you will have to determine for yourself. What sort of thoughts come to mind when you start feeling anxious?

I have no history of any mental illness, I'm functioning fine at the moment.

I've always been idiosyncratic in my thinking, and don't really fear damaged relationships or alienation, or the fear that all the cultural values that were given to me were untrue (which I already know they are). I've found a way of dealing with society and people while keeping my own thoughts intact... to a certain degree.

What does spook me is that I now know the nature of my immediate experience is different to what I think it is. In moments after reading/thinking, when tired and when winding down, I might look around and start fearing that all this isn't real, that it's some kind of dream as it's often described, and that my direct experience of me isn't real. It's basically a creepy feeling, that only lasts for a moment, and of which I'm not sure if it's significant, but, which I fear will turn into some horror show if I continue!

And/Or, Is this life-and-death situation something that comes about once enough insight has accumulated and it's seen that there really is no viable alternative in the worldly world, eg all avenues become closed off and your only way to life is to understand? If so, would you say that that's a necessary condition?

Yes.

It's naturally a scary prospect.

Yes.

Once you have broken through and grasped the very root of everything, then you can broaden back out and start reading the likes of Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, and so on, with safety.

The risk being, a misunderstanding, maybe permanent, I suppose?

The risk is remaining trapped in delusion for the rest of your life.

When a person lacks fundamental insight and has no real desire to attain it, reading simply becomes a passive exercise in strengthening and reaffirming the deepest assumptions, biases and beliefs inside him that remain unchallenged. The neural processes that occur when reading remain stunted and distorted at a superficial level.

When you are genuinely interested in comprehending the ultimate truth, meditative states will start to appear naturally. You don’t have to worry about formal meditation. Wherever the heart is, the mind will follow.

So then, given that the purpose of the texts is for the reader to leave the words and ascend to an urgent, life-and-death quest, and the texts should be used sparingly to deeply meditate on specific passages, I almost get the sense that it doesn't really matter which specific passage I meditate on (assuming it's true and relevant of course)

I tried to follow your advice today. I focused on a specific passage, trying to figure it out. I could more or less form a conceptual understanding of things but that was not very useful in and of itself. I tried to take the next step, which effectively turned into a storm of thoughts going through my head, where I was trying to relate the concept to memories, my immediate experience, trying to reason with it, and so forth. Is that how it's supposed to go - I doubt it because I repeatedly read that the ultimate goal involves the cessation of all conceptual thought. Or, is the storm perhaps supposed to collapse in onto itself once the opposing conflicting thoughts have annihilated eachother? Or rather that seeing all these inconsistencies somehow intuitively spurs the forming of a non conceptual understanding.

A couple of things:

- It’s good that you gave it a go, but you really need to make a whole lifestyle out of it. It has to be constant, day after day, continually seeking to immerse your mind in the ultimate understanding. This should be happening not only when you are sitting in a chair and reading, but also when you are out and about and living your life more generally. Your whole life should be in meditation. The goal is to live directly in reality without interruption, not confine it to a small portion of the mind that enjoys intellectual understanding. This is the only way that shifts at the deepest level can occur. It can take months, or even years, for these shifts to occur.

I read about this in your blog article. What does the constant meditation entail, in practice? Is it conceptual thinking relating to the infinite, e.g. making sense of passages from texts and so forth, or, is it persistently paying attention to your immediate experience (including sensory perceptions and houghts), or both?

- Forget about trying to stop thoughts and achieve a blank mind. That is a populist delusion. It won’t lead to enlightenment. It will only lead to hell. Allow the mind to form concepts naturally. Your only focus should be to rationally examine them as they arise and discard them when they prove to be mistaken. As time goes by and your understanding deepens, more and more false concepts will fall away of their own accord. The non-conceptual understanding that the sages talk about arises at the very end of this process.

That's clear

Enlightened understanding is non-conceptual in the sense that it does not rely on any specific concept to prop it up. It is all pervasive. It infuses all of one’s experiences and thoughts. One literally goes beyond all concepts, not into a black mind, but into infinite freedom.

That makes sense. Linking this to the constant meditation, does constant meditation also involve going through all one's views and reevaluating them based on the new knowledge of the infinite? I guess it does.

[Avolith]

Am I taking it too literally?

Not necessarily. If what you read doesn't seem wise or reasonable to you then ignore it and move on to something else. You could be wrong in your judgment, but if something is wise it won't fail to make itself known to you eventually. Reading wise things is mostly about finding different ways of expressing your own thoughts.

Makes sense.

Hence:

In comparison, the sage,
in harmony with the Tao,
needs no comparisons,

So you're saying that as a sage, you don't (ultimately) need to compare different translations of the text to find their intended meaning, because you are simply using the words to guide yourself to rediscover your own thoughts? And/or the sage doesn't need comparisons because... I guess I'll go think about that

[Avolith]

Avolith: Why is it that a comparison necessarily is also a judgement? Eg I can imagine comparing some objects' sizes without making a judgment as to which size is better? Am I taking it too literally?

Making a comparison of size without context of meaning - judgment - is a lifeless experience, is it not? Judgment and consciousness go hand-in-hand, one could even say that judgment is the life of consciousness. Where judgment becomes suffering is it is projected - asserted - into the world as if it is a universal or absolute truth.

Let's say you prefer small dogs to large dogs. If your judgment (your preference, your meaning, your valuing of) of dog size ends here, you are in harmony with the Tao. If, however, your preference for small dogs over large dogs causes you to debate or to argue with those who prefer large dogs over small dogs, then you are out of harmony with the Tao.

What if it were important to discern large and small dogs for the furtherment of truth? What if small dogs were capable of enlightenment, and large dogs weren't? Then it would be important for people to understand this, and it is possible that people would accept this truth if it were asserted

[David Quinn]

Given that serious thinking involves challenging everything in a direct and purposeful manner there is bound to be anxiety involved, particularly in the early stages of the endeavour. That’s natural. After all, the serious thinker is choosing to undermine the very foundations of his place in the world. Not only is he challenging his own deepest beliefs and cultural conditioning, but he is placing himself in conflict with his family, friends and peers, and alienating himself from the human race more generally. And the only weapons available to him are his own reasoning powers and faith in truth. What a mismatch! This is where courage comes into play, and courage implies anxiety.

Is the anxiety you are describing purely of this kind? Or are there other sources of anxiety involved, such as conventional forms of neurosis and mental illness? Not knowing anything about you, I can’t say. It is something you will have to determine for yourself. What sort of thoughts come to mind when you start feeling anxious?

I have no history of any mental illness, I'm functioning fine at the moment.

I've always been idiosyncratic in my thinking, and don't really fear damaged relationships or alienation, or the fear that all the cultural values that were given to me were untrue (which I already know they are). I've found a way of dealing with society and people while keeping my own thoughts intact... to a certain degree.

What does spook me is that I now know the nature of my immediate experience is different to what I think it is. In moments after reading/thinking, when tired and when winding down, I might look around and start fearing that all this isn't real, that it's some kind of dream as it's often described, and that my direct experience of me isn't real. It's basically a creepy feeling, that only lasts for a moment, and of which I'm not sure if it's significant, but, which I fear will turn into some horror show if I continue!

Ok, good, that’s clarified things a bit. It sounds as though what you are experiencing here is just a basic fear of the unknown and with it, a loss of control. You have engaged in enough reasoning to suspect that the world is illusory in some manner, but you don’t yet know what that means. And so the alarm bells in your subconscious are ringing. It all sounds perfectly natural and normal to me. Since you have no history of mental illness, I wouldn’t overly concern yourself with this. It should dissipate as you gain more understanding of the infinite.

The key thing to understand is that it is impossible to change or obliterate the real you. It is constant.

A couple of things:

- It’s good that you gave it a go, but you really need to make a whole lifestyle out of it. It has to be constant, day after day, continually seeking to immerse your mind in the ultimate understanding. This should be happening not only when you are sitting in a chair and reading, but also when you are out and about and living your life more generally. Your whole life should be in meditation. The goal is to live directly in reality without interruption, not confine it to a small portion of the mind that enjoys intellectual understanding. This is the only way that shifts at the deepest level can occur. It can take months, or even years, for these shifts to occur.

I read about this in your blog article. What does the constant meditation entail, in practice? Is it conceptual thinking relating to the infinite, e.g. making sense of passages from texts and so forth, or, is it persistently paying attention to your immediate experience (including sensory perceptions and houghts), or both?

Here are a couple of passages that I wrote not too long ago, which may or may not be part of a book that I am slowly putting together:

• The core dynamic of the spiritual path is easy enough to describe. It involves burrowing down into the mind to uncover the Infinite and then bringing it to the surface so that it infiltrates and transforms every aspect of one’s life. It begins as an intellectual exercise of dismantling false thinking and discerning truth, shifts into the mode of single-minded determination to overcome all attachments, and ends in a life of spontaneous wisdom in perfect freedom.
  
  As one proceeds along this path, attachments are gradually eroded, illusions are methodically removed and one’s understanding becomes ever more direct, alive and profound. One becomes increasingly conscious of the nature of God such that it becomes visible everywhere - in every perception, in every experience, in every thought, in every action. Everything is steadily dissolved until there is nothing left but God.
  
  As with any other walk of life, success in this endeavour is dependent upon how much desire and commitment you have. If you are not strongly motivated to reach the highest understanding that life has to offer, then it is guaranteed you will never reach it. And even if you do somehow manage to reach it, if you are not willing to push on further and open up your entire being to this great understanding and allow it to revolutionize every aspect of your existence, then you will never know what it is like to move beyond all understanding and expand into the limitless freedom of the Infinite. Without this lion-like motivation, you will get nowhere. You will remain trapped in ordinary consciousness and continue to suffer its hollow rewards and numerous hells.
  
  No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God. If it is your goal to leave the world behind and live the enlightened life, then it is vital to make the firm commitment to really leave the world behind and live the enlightened life. Make every effort to identify with the All, the totality of all there is. It makes life so much easier if you can do this. If you can stop thinking of yourself as a mere human being stuck on an isolated planet in the middle of a vast universe and instead identify with the all-pervading void which is your true nature and the source of all things, you will quickly reach the indescribable wisdom of the Buddhas with a minimum of fuss.
  
  From the moment you wake up in the morning until you go to bed at night, do your utmost to generate as much as love and passion for the Infinite as you can. Treat the Infinite as your best friend. Treat it as your only friend. Think of it as your one true love. It is the only thing that you can rely on in this world. No matter where you are or what situation you are in, the Infinite will always be there, creating everything, sustaining everything, comprising everything. It is literally your soul. It goes wherever you go. If you give yourself over to it, nothing can ever take it away. The more you can embrace it, the more it will sustain you. The more it sustains you, the more you can detach yourself from the things of this world and enjoy the freedom of nirvana, which is your birthright.

And:

• In order to make genuine advancements along the spiritual path, it is important to keep ramping up the intensity levels on a daily basis. Keep reminding yourself of the importance of becoming wise and always seek to embrace wisdom with as much gusto as you can manage. The more you can do this, the more you can generate the sort of momentum that can really take you places.
  
  Everything becomes so much easier when you can build and nurture a powerful wave of momentum. You can sit back with ease and ride on the back of this unstoppable force. You no longer have to waste your energy fighting against the resistance of your own sluggish inertia. The mind automatically becomes more courageous and penetrative. Obstacles that once seemed so large and immovable are easily swept away. Progress becomes effortless. The loftiest attainments are suddenly within reach.
  
  Here is a good practice to engage in:
  
  As frequently as you can, bring your deepest understanding of reality to the forefront of your mind in the shortest amount of time possible. In other words, if you find that you are being distracted by something that is occurring in the world, immediately pull yourself up and remind yourself of the importance of wisdom and then dive straight back into the most enlightened form of consciousness that is available to you. The moment you notice that your mind is wandering, quickly berate yourself and then woosh! - plunge straight back into God in an instant.
  
  When a person accidentally drops a hundred dollar bill in the middle of a busy supermarket, watch how he cries out in alarm and then swoops down to pick it up with a near super-human focus that blocks everything else out. That is how you must approach God. You must have that single-minded focus that absolutely hungers for enlightenment. If a mere hundred dollar bill can trigger such an urgent response, then how much more should the priceless jewel of wisdom do so!
  
  This kind of urgent thrust into the philosophic realm, performed throughout the day, can produce numerous benefits. It will intensify your overall commitment to wisdom. The urgency will convey the message to your brain that this is a life and death matter and thus requires a high degree of focus. By going straight to the frontier of your understanding, you will not have to waste time and energy sluggishly rehashing the same basic logical reasonings that you have already mastered and performed a thousand times before; instead, you can immediately explore new lines of thought and further develop your understanding. The swiftness of the action will prompt the neural pathways in the brain to make more philosophic connections at a greater rate. The end goal is not just to thoroughly master an intellectual comprehension of reality, but to develop the spiritual ability to enter into full enlightenment any time you want with an instantaneous act of will.
  
  So what does it mean, exactly, to thrust the mind into its deepest and most enlightened form of consciousness? Can such a practice really be effective for those who are still unenlightened and thus bound by their own flawed understanding?
  
  Again, always keep in mind that the primary goal of spirituality is to become fully aware of the nature of reality in all situations and circumstances, no matter what we are doing or where we find ourselves. We achieve this goal by eliminating the delusions, mirages and false thoughts that surreptitiously overwhelm us and cause us to remain unconscious. This in turn involves challenging and dissolving the fundamental conceptual paradigms which have been imposed upon us by society and distort our perspective of the world. In other words, we have to break our conditioning.
  
  A common example is the conceptual paradigm which has us believing that the world really is three-dimensional and physical in nature, that it really is solid and immovable, that it really does exist in an objective manner. Conditioned thus, each of us comes to deeply believe that he is nothing more than an insignificant being on an insignificant planet with a finite history that began at some point in the past and will disappear back into oblivion at some point in the future. Such a paradigm severely limits our minds, causing us to suffer miserable, frustrated lives and leads us to block out our infinite, intangible nature.
  
  This deep-rooted illusion needs to be consistently attacked and undermined with the help of alternative paradigms that are more rational in nature. An example is the conceptual understanding of cause and effect that was described in The Wisdom of the Infinite. By constantly keeping the mind focused on the reality that all things have causes, that they are composed of constituent parts that come from somewhere else, that the boundaries marking where things begin and end are illusory, that nothing can inherently exist - the more the mind can focus on these logical truths, the more it can slowly erode and dissolve the core delusion of objective existence.
  
  You might be having a conversation with someone, for example. As they are speaking, you might zero in on the qualities of their voice and see how its tone and pitch are determined by the size and capacity of their lungs, the shape of their larynx, the vibration rate of their vocal folds, the physical properties of sound waves, the chemical composition of the atmosphere, the structural design of your own inner ears, and so on. This might lead you to observe that the person’s voice has no intrinsic reality of its own, that it is entirely dependent upon on countless outside factors for its existence, much like how a shadow’s existence is fully determined by outside factors. With a bit of practice, you can train yourself to zoom into this meditation, entertain it for several seconds and then zoom out again, all the while keeping track of what the other person is saying.
  
  Another alternative paradigm involves exploring the reality that everything we experience is a construction of consciousness, that the solid world around us is no more tangible than a dream. Again, what we are doing here is replacing a deluded paradigm (the conventional belief that the world is physical and three-dimensional) with one that is more rational and rooted in reality. The more you can take hold of these alternative paradigms and insert them into and around your normal daily activities, the more you can erode those deluded habits of thought that keep your mind locked in convention and ignorance.
  
  Try not to get too attached to these alternative paradigms, though. After all, they are not ultimate expressions of enlightenment, but merely correctives for a particular type of delusion. They too will need to be discarded at some point. It is like taking medicine for a particular sickness. The medicine is not health, but rather a means to gaining health. Once the sickness has been cured and health is restored, the medicine can be discarded. In the same way, when you have applied these alternative paradigms to the fullest extent and you are no longer under the sway of the original delusion of physical/objective existence, you can let go of that practice and begin the process all over again - only this time the alternative paradigms are replaced by even more rational ones. And so it goes on, until there are no more delusions left and enlightenment is all that remains.

[visheshdewan050193]

As frequently as you can, bring your deepest understanding of reality to the forefront of your mind in the shortest amount of time possible.

For me this is reflecting not only on present constituents of my consciousness and how they are casually dependent on one another (in the scientific way that causation is determined) but also on a formless void, and how neither the constituents of my consciousness nor the void are fundamentally real given their dependent existence.

It's the easiest and most effective way to collapse the significance of the trillions of events that happen over infinitesimal periods of time that my consciousness is not privy to (which can all be treated as part of the fundamentally formless void), and to break away from the paradigm of thinking oneself as a being with limited sensory and cognitive ability trapped in a vast universe on a piece of rock.

Not sure if this is too abstract a way of thinking though.

[David Quinn]

I wouldn't worry about that. When it comes to abandoning concepts, you can never be too abstract.

[Santiago Odo]

“I have no intentions,” said the hunter with a smile and,
to make up for his mocking tone,
laid a hand on the burgomaster’s knee.
“I am here. I don’t know any more than that.
There’s nothing more I can do.
My boat is without a helm—it journeys with the wind
which blows in the deepest regions of death".

________________________________________

Hello my Beloved Children! To each My Blessing!

For though ours is a godless age, it is the very opposite of irreligious. The true believer is everywhere on the march, and both by converting and antagonizing he is shaping the world in his own image. And whether we are to line up with him or against him, it is well that we should know all we can concerning his nature and potentialities.

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for the lost faith in ourselves.

The most incurably frustrated—and, therefore, the most vehement—among the permanent misfits are those with an unfulfilled craving for creative work. Both those who try to write, paint, compose, etcetera, and fail decisively, and those who after tasting the elation of creativeness feel a drying up of the creative flow within and know that never again will they produce aught worthwhile, are alike in the grip of a desperate passion. Neither fame nor power nor riches nor even monumental achievements in other fields can still their hunger. Even the wholehearted dedication to a holy cause does not always cure them. Their unappeased hunger persists, and they are likely to become the most violent extremists in the service of their holy cause.

Obviously, what is occurring now with Mahatma David's return to instruct an avid Chela, will only mount in intensity of conviction. This is how the neurosis functions. And my purpose has been and still is to contextualize this religious zeal within a social and cultural neurosis that has arisen out of general nihilism.

What has always amazed me in David's case, is the use of many of the terms of Catholic belief -- these references to God, to total sacrifice of self to God, of fiery love of God -- and yet this God is no God at all, but rather a pure intellectual abstraction. It is by definition not a God of consciousness, or an intelligible God, but simply an extension of a mental notion, and the mental notion is rooted in a neurotic self.

Everything is steadily dissolved until there is nothing left but God.

It begins as an intellectual exercise of dismantling false thinking and discerning truth, shifts into the mode of single-minded determination to overcome all attachments, and ends in a life of spontaneous wisdom in perfect freedom.

No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.

From the moment you wake up in the morning until you go to bed at night, do your utmost to generate as much as love and passion for the Infinite as you can.

The more you can do this, the more you can generate the sort of momentum that can really take you places.

But this is, in my view, the more revealing declaration:

After all, the serious thinker is choosing to undermine the very foundations of his place in the world. Not only is he challenging his own deepest beliefs and cultural conditioning, but he is placing himself in conflict with his family, friends and peers, and alienating himself from the human race more generally. And the only weapons available to him are his own reasoning powers and faith in truth. What a mismatch! This is where courage comes into play, and courage implies anxiety.

I would correct the final part to:

"And the only weapons available to him are his own neurotic will and its declarations".

It is presented as a sort of *ultimate challenge* and is described as a goal worth pursuing. In fact it hooks a person's ambition at some level. That is, it is filled with promises. It will, after all, 'take you places'. Except those places will be gained through or after a complete -- not a partial but a total -- undermining of his place in the world and in processes that '[alienate] [him] from the human race more generally'.

For this and many other reasons I discern that this approach, this set of goals and objects, this *path* if you will, is neurotic and nihilistic. In fact it is the ur-form of neurosis and nihilism. And it is a form of these which is common in our cultures and at the present stage of our civilization which is, quite severely, in a decadent and corroded phase.

The opposition that I offer here, which is an *imposition* into the structure of this manifestation of neurosis, is in a sense fuel for the increase of a pseudo-religious zealousness. Because each *player* here, in one degree or another, has been captured by these neurotic and nihilistic currents of thought, tied as they are to *loss of self* and alienation. All of the goals and object -- the promises -- of this deranged pseudo-religion, involve breaking apart, separation, giving in to what I call *acidic* plans and processes. And they are part of a wider and a general loss of foundation, loss of faith, and lack of a sense of genuine goal and object. That is, what a man should devote himself to.

These all function not creatively nor productively, but destructively. Nothing at all can be created with the entire *project* that is presented through this neurotic religiousness. It is, it occurs to me, a way to try to avoid any real and compromising project by substituting it with a Grandiose Neurotic one. It can only substantially capture a certain type of person though. A specific type of young man who has been *primed* for it. I suppose one desperate enough, and disconnected enough, to have no other alternative but to take the bait and take the plunge.

In contrast to all of this, in my view, is a religious project -- a spiritual, philosophical, cultural, familiar, social, and civilizational project -- that has realistically assessed Man and seeks a grounding *within our own traditions*. The emphasis on these Eastern zennish modes are chosen not because they are 'wise' but because they are the best tools to destabilize an individual. They take the ground out from under the one who subjects himself to their praxes. The very strangest thing, and this I think is most noticeable with David, is the return to, the turn back into, Kierkegaardian and Nietzschean categories. The *traditions* are largely incompatible. Significantly so.

Both Kierkegaard and Nietzsche, in profound ways, are connected to the Greco-Christian social and cultural project. They are part of it and are outcomes of it. It seems to me that if one were to really go in this peculiar Zen direction (whatever the heck David's religious project is and it is quite hard to define because it is uniquely neurotic and idiosyncratic) one would do better to simply abandon Occidental categories altogether. Since everything else, including the human world! is being abandoned, nothing could be lost. But it is a complete and total error to see this bizarre path as having any relationship at all to our Occidental projects. It is, in fact, the death of them. (More could be said about this).

Well, there you have a general outline. We are at a very odd juncture in our civilization. In my view this is the first order of business and where consciousness needs to be focused. We need to bring life back into ourselves by connecting with ourselves as living, incarnated beings, and to pursue those projects that are part of our life and of life. This is part of the reversal of nihilistic death- and suicide-process (that is what nihilism results in). This too requires expository amplification. So, the actual direction to go is 180 degrees in opposition to the outline David neurotically offers! I mean this literally. I said that I would 'rewrite Genius Forum' and re-ground it on a proper base. I have done it. It is just a question of following through.

[Avolith]

Thanks, this has cleared things up alot.

A minor suggestion for the book, assuming i'm correct: When it comes to daily practice, another thing I imagine I could focus on is the idea that there is no do-er, and that really things are happening by themselves.

The book seems like it would be very valuable!

As frequently as you can, bring your deepest understanding of reality to the forefront of your mind in the shortest amount of time possible.

For me this is reflecting not only on present constituents of my consciousness and how they are casually dependent on one another (in the scientific way that causation is determined) but also on a formless void, and how neither the constituents of my consciousness nor the void are fundamentally real given their dependent existence.

It's the easiest and most effective way to collapse the significance of the trillions of events that happen over infinitesimal periods of time that my consciousness is not privy to (which can all be treated as part of the fundamentally formless void), and to break away from the paradigm of thinking oneself as a being with limited sensory and cognitive ability trapped in a vast universe on a piece of rock.

Not sure if this is too abstract a way of thinking though.

Interesting.

[Pam Seeback]

Santiago Odo: The issue -- which is really your problem (and those who think like this) -- is that you have deep issues with 'suffering' (and this can be understood). You have this impossible idea that it is avoidable, and perhaps even that it is desirable to avoid it. A false claim. A neurotic claim. One could assert that it is better and ultimately necessary to master suffering rather than to avoid it. There are numerous alternative possibilities.

Yes, I no longer suffer, but not because of avoidance but because of pushing through it - transcending it - in the light of understanding its nature, and using this wisdom to do what needed to be done to bring it to an end. The Tao te Ching, the subject of this thread, is one of several wisdom texts that inspired this quest.

Pam: Let's say you prefer small dogs to large dogs. If your judgment (your preference, your meaning, your valuing of) of dog size ends here, you are in harmony with the Tao. If, however, your preference for small dogs over large dogs causes you to debate or to argue with those who prefer large dogs over small dogs, then you are out of harmony with the Tao.

Santiago Odo: Interesting how you speak for the Tao. Quo warranto?

The thread is specific to the wisdom of the Tao te Ching, the wisdom of non-attachment as the way to be in harmony with the Tao.

Santiago Odo: Still, this is a bad example. According to you there should be no preference at all. A dog, a rock, some vapor in a pan -- all equal. Any preference, at any point, produces anguish. But going further one notices that your declarations about the Tao -- as if it has or recommends non-preferences -- is a foil behind which certain levels of your own choice and assertions lurk. If 'being in harmony with the Tao' is a value-assertion, then you are making specific assertions, judgments, that are of more consequence than that of small dogs and big dogs. Therefore, you get to play the game of valuation while pretending not to.

Clearly, plainly I stated that preference/judgement is the way of consciousness and not only ‘should there be a preference’, but that one cannot avoid causing preference and making values. How is it that you so grossly misunderstood my post?

Santiago Odo: You imply that very important questions and issues, those that are crucial to people, to families, to the living of life, to the affairs of this world and those of *worlds beyond*, can be reduced to inanities, and (logically) should be seen as similar categories. This is the field where your error expresses itself.

Suffering, to me, is very real and is experienced across all human affairs. This suffering can end if one desires with all their heart and mind to find out how. If you desire that the world continue to suffer their affairs, that is your preference, or to use your words, your responsibility of meaning.

Santiago Odo: 'The Sage' (as the sage-game is played here) plays a game with himself within an imagined/forced 'enlightenment' and as a result of this misses all important points. This particular disease arises, I gather, out of cultural nihilism. It is neurotic and unhealthy. It operates like a drug. He can find *willing victims*, alienated from themselves, and induce them to the same neurotic posture, and this is proselytization.

Alex it is you who playing the reduction game, reducing the quest for wisdom to some sort of intellectual bandy about of cultural nihilism. And since we have hashed out the difference between intellectual-emotional nihilism and the philosophical experience of nihilism several times before, I will not rehash it here. As for proselytization, what do you think you are doing here at Genius?

Santiago Odo: It is a Ponzi scheme of the mind.

It’s your Ponzi scheme of the mind, not mine, nor dare I say, of any deeply suffering human being.

Santiago Odo: This idea of 'harmony with the Tao' needs a profound reworking within the specific context of everyone who writes here. It is an attractive -- a seductive -- self-deception based in a strange (a questionable) metaphysical dream of the world. Too general to have much meaning at all, it attracts I gather those who seek to escape the responsibilities of meaning.

As I stated above, the wisdom of the Tao is clearly laid out in the Tao te Ching. If you do not agree with its wisdom, then why not leave it be and write your own wisdom text?

[Pam Seeback]

Avolith: What if it were important to discern large and small dogs for the furtherment of truth? What if small dogs were capable of enlightenment, and large dogs weren't? Then it would be important for people to understand this, and it is possible that people would accept this truth if it were asserted.

If it is needed to try and discern large and small dogs for the furtherment of truth, then it is needed.

[Avolith]

Yes, I no longer suffer, but not because of avoidance but because of pushing through it - transcending it - in the light of understanding its nature, and using this wisdom to do what needed to be done to bring it to an end. The Tao te Ching, the subject of this thread,

Do you see the irony in the situation where you're saying that it's against the tao to assert value judgements, which is in itself the assertion of a value judgement, given that you value the tao and the end of your suffering

[Santiago Odo]

All my critique, my dear Pam, take place within a larger context which, it seems to me, you cannot even visualize.

Therefore, 'what I am on about' is not intelligible to you.

The Tao te Ching is a text -- a message -- presented within a larger frame as well. For that reason anyone, here, who touches on any aspect of it, in idea or recommendation, is an exemplar of 'the larger frame' speaking to or interrelating with the text-message.

I am here in this conversation because an aspect of fate or destiny has established that this be so. The *great causal chain* opens my mouth and . . . I speak. :-)

Once again, Pam, I do not have objections to your personal choices and I am pleased that your choices work for you. I would have no reason not to be! But as I have said many many times the context of this forum is larger than your unique existence. Its terms and its reach extend many many times farther than your personal limitations. I am speaking here of the constitution of the forum as an idea-project within Occidental ideation.

You do not conceive of this, you have no relationship to it, you do not *relate* to this, and thus it does not appear in your discourse! But in my own case -- for good or for evil -- this is my main concern. And all my reasons for laying stress here can be explained and have often been explained in detail. No one of those reasons has inspired or moved you and I am content with that.

Clearly, plainly I stated that preference/judgement is the way of consciousness and not only ‘should there be a preference’, but that one cannot avoid causing preference and making values. How is it that you so grossly misunderstood my post?

Very simple: because you then said that the problem arises with asserting one value or truth over another. But I assert that such is necessary and also good. The issue here has to do -- as I constantly say and you never hear -- with larger social, cultural and civilizational issues.

If, however, your preference for small dogs over large dogs causes you to debate or to argue with those who prefer large dogs over small dogs, then you are out of harmony with the Tao.

You are using the term *Tao* by taking possession of it. And you seem to do this without awareness of the implications. I do not accept nor abide by the term *Tao* nor any of the following or necessary terms in that philosophical or existential exposition. I am free to look at all the terms, the *context* of that writing, and the truth-claims there, and to make independent choices about them, as well as to compare them to ideas from *my own traditions*.

[Santiago Odo]

As for proselytization, what do you think you are doing here at Genius?

Proselytize: (pros-, "toward") and the verb ἔρχομαι (érchomai, "to come") in the form of προσήλυτος (prosélytos, "newcomer").

Well, I would answer that 'all speech is sermonic'.

For Richard Weaver this meant that rhetorical embellishment accreted itself around idea-content. And that such idea-content is the stuff that results from our understanding of 'the world' and what our place is here and what our duty is here. These are essentially Occidental categories. Insofar as we are occidentals.

And that it is crucial to discern that idea-content. To understand how it came to be defined and expressed. And what it *means*. But that means to evaluate. That means to make decisions. That means to be an agent in this world, not to surrender agency. That means to built in this world.

It means, in fact, everything! And of this everything, you, Pam, understand next to nothing. None of this has any relevance to you. It means nothing.

Now, the fact is that you-plural are proselytizing Avolith, that much is plain. But I don't give a rat's ass about him (or any person here qua person). Therefore I cannot be said to be proselytizing him.

What I am doing, and have always done, is contradicting a current of ideation here. This is a different process.

Hope that clarifies things!

PS: I have changed my avatar for you, Avolith. Do you like it?!

[Avolith]

Edit: You seem worried to me for someone who says they dont care about any outcomes

[Santiago Odo]

I.am.your.one.true.friend.here. And I don't give a rat's ass about you!

Edit: Where did I say I was either concerned or not for outcomes?

I'm just worried about if you like me!

Do you feel anything for me at all?

::: biting nails :::

[Avolith]

I understand why you think that. The fundamental problem here is that that you dont see that the wisdom here is the real deal. Critical thinking is always warranted of course

(edit - changed skepticism into critical thinking)

I don't think you're worried about me, but rather your own fate

[Santiago Odo]

The fundamental problem here is that that you don't see that the wisdom here is the real deal.

(Would you please use proper punctuation? I had to add a period and an apostrophe.)

Look, I am a slow learner ok?! I need some help. Why be so stingy? I am open to hearing about the wisdom you describe as the real deal. Can you please help me? Bring out the most important element of real-deal wisdom and explain it to me so I can understand.

I'd do the same for you if I had wisdom . . .

...but rather your own fate

Ooooh. You are so mysterious! What do you mean?

[Avolith]

The fundamental problem here is that that you don't see that the wisdom here is the real deal.

(Would you please use proper punctuation? I had to add a period and an apostrophe.)

Look, I am a slow learner ok?! I need some help. Why be so stingy? I am open to hearing about the wisdom you describe as the real deal. Can you please help me? Bring out the most important element of real-deal wisdom and explain it to me so I can understand.

I'd do the same for you if I had wisdom . . .

I think this type of sarcasm dilutes the discussion, and experience tells me engaging with it leads us in pointless circles.

[Avolith]

...but rather your own fate

Ooooh. You are so mysterious! What do you mean?

[/quote]

It may seem mysterious to you, but you would find it rather straight forward if you were capable of seeing yourself. Ask the others who know you if they find my comment mysterious.

[Santiago Odo]

You may not like or appreciate what I say and how I communicate. Your right of course.

But I challenge you -- free of any irony -- to isolate and describe the wisdom that you perceive.

Do this independently of how I communicate and what I say. Do it in defense of that wisdom.

Ask the others who know you if they find my comment mysterious.

They don't know me.

[Avolith]

You may not like or appreciate what I say and how I communicate. Your right of course.

But I challenge you -- free of any irony -- to isolate and describe the wisdom that you perceive.

Do this independently of how I communicate and what I say. Do it in defense of that wisdom.

Ask the others who know you if they find my comment mysterious.

They don't know me.

Wisdom is not something that can be isolated and pinned down. Its precisely this urge of the human mind that needs to be lessened to become wise. I'm sure you will perceive this as a cheap answer, but it's still true and this nature of wisdom causes the kinds of misunderstandings constantly happening on this board. I am not implying that you have no wisdom, but there are obviously misunderstandings as far as I can tell

In this sense wisdom can seem a lot like feminine unconsciousness, but it's in fact the opposite. It's the thing that infuses the discriminatory capacities with life and truth.

That's as far as I can manage with my limited understanding of it

[Santiago Odo]

Wisdom is not something that can be isolated and pinned down. Its precisely this urge of the human mind that needs to be lessened to become wise. I'm sure you will perceive this as a cheap answer, but it's still true and this nature of wisdom causes the kinds of misunderstandings constantly happening on this board. I am not implying that you have no wisdom, but there are obviously misunderstandings as far as I can tell.

Not a cheap answer, but a really really unintelligent one. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, yet you talk*.

And you are going to lecture now on what human minds requires to become wise?

You are exactly and precisely the type that David et al seeks! They fooled themselves and to all appearances they can fool others. It has happened many times before.

Wisdom is indeed something that can be 'isolated' and 'pinned down', and if you cannot do that, you must see that you are not speaking about anything tangible or real, but playing a deceptive game.

I am not implying that you have no wisdom...

Well, I definitely have no wisdom of the sort that you defined!
_____________

*(Are you cheating and getting coaching from Jupi in PMs?!?)

[Avolith]

Wisdom is not something that can be isolated and pinned down. Its precisely this urge of the human mind that needs to be lessened to become wise. I'm sure you will perceive this as a cheap answer, but it's still true and this nature of wisdom causes the kinds of misunderstandings constantly happening on this board. I am not implying that you have no wisdom, but there are obviously misunderstandings as far as I can tell.

Not a cheap answer, but a really really unintelligent one. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, yet you talk.

And you are going to lecture now on what human minds requires to become wise?

You are exactly and precisely the type that David et al seeks! They fooled themselves and to all appearances they can fool others. It has happened many times before.

Wisdom is indeed something that can be 'isolated' and 'pinned down', and if you cannot do that, you must see that you are not speaking about anything tangible or real, but a deceptive game that you play with yourself.

I am not implying that you have no wisdom...

Well, I definitely have no wisdom of the sort that you defined!

My post was not to be taken as a definition of wisdom. It's entirely true that I don't really know what the human mind is to do if it is to become wise. But I do believe quite strongly that wisdom in some person ultimately can't be pinned down, and the only way to really know it is to experience it for yourself. I can see that you genuinely believe that there is something seriously immoral happening here, but it's just not so.

[Pam Seeback]

Yes, I no longer suffer, but not because of avoidance but because of pushing through it - transcending it - in the light of understanding its nature, and using this wisdom to do what needed to be done to bring it to an end. The Tao te Ching, the subject of this thread,

Do you see the irony in the situation where you're saying that it's against the tao to assert value judgements, which is in itself the assertion of a value judgement, given that you value the tao and the end of your suffering

Good thought and I see your point. What is unique about philosophical wisdom texts (to include the Tao te Ching) is that their central message is that of non attachment, but of course in order to receive the value of wisdom of non-attachment one must first become attached to the wisdom text and not only attached, but passionately attached. So I concede to your logic and assert that because the Tao assists in the end of suffering caused by attachments, the Tao is valuable. Of course, my assertion means nothing unless the reader hears some truth in the assertion and is inspired to study/meditate on the Tao te Ching for his or herself.