The cost of ignorance, the glory of truth

[Pam Seeback]

Many dead philosophers told of the coming of the subjective-absolute self of 'pure' or unconditioned idea, but for these prophetic (troubled?) souls, the time was not ripe for acceptance of such a notion. It is only since the coming of the internet that we are witnessing what I like to call "the great self unloosening" - at the click of a mouse or a scroll of the thumb ideas are instantly shared and quickly accepted or rejected. Which, naturally, for the self that, out of ignorance, desires ideas to be manifested as true or real or ideal, the world of spontaneous-idea sharing must appear as a frightening, dangerous place: no fixed-idea = the coming of madness/chaos.

An understandable reaction but the glory of truth is that it doesn't care whether we like it or we don't like it or whether we accept it or we don't accept it. And the truth is that contrary to what the historical-cultural self hopes will happen, it is not possible to manifest idea. Idea always has been and always will be a dynamic, fleeting revelation of the unknown 'thinker.' The truth of things is that because it is not possible for awareness to become any one thing, awareness (subjectively) is able to reveal all things.

For the self that fears the truth of subjective idea impermanence, I point out that In the history of the world not a single idea has been made real or absolute and of this vain struggle to manifest/objectify/concretize the self, is it not a worthwhile endeavor to ask what cost Man is paying for the continuation of this, his deluded vanity or more succinctly put, why is Man kicking a dead horse when he can ride a living one?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Man is a process of constantly trying to become real and manifest while essentially it simply cannot be. It's the little engine that could. But it's not disconnected from nature as a whole, not even within all the alienation. That's all we really know.

[Pam Seeback]

Man is a process of constantly trying to become real and manifest while essentially it simply cannot be. It's the little engine that could. But it's not disconnected from nature as a whole, not even within all the alienation. That's all we really know.

There is a way to release the tension of 'trying to become real' by realizing that it is the 'trying' that causes the tension. And contrary to what I believe you believe of releasing this tension, you do not become as 'a cow chewing its cud'. It is difficult to describe what giving up the tension of 'trying to manifest things you know cannot be' is like - but I will try. It is as if you are awake and alert in the silence and invisibility of all things, waiting for the right and true things of the moment to be revealed. Not manifested - this is important - but revealed. When I realized that things are revealed to consciousness, not manifested by consciousness, it was as if a switch went off and the tightness/contraction I was holding onto (or was holding onto me :-)) slowly dissolved. It could be said that there is a subtle presence of tension in being awake and alert waiting for the right and true thing to be revealed, but it is not at all similar to the tension experienced when one is 'trying to become real'.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

There is a way to release the tension of 'trying to become real' by realizing that it is the 'trying' that causes the tension.

This was not meant as something about volition or like having some bad thought or ingrained habit to catch in the act. It's about the nature of our manifestations. It cannot be helped or fixed. The tension is about "what exists" and as such cannot be suspended or taken away from anyone.

It is difficult to describe what giving up the tension of 'trying to manifest things you know cannot be' is like - but I will try. It is as if you are awake and alert in the silence and invisibility of all things, waiting for the right and true things of the moment to be revealed.

It's not a matter of giving it up. And in the end you're just having "right and true things" in a mode that you feel more in control or at ease with. But since I was describing the universal experience, the notion of more or less awareness of any tension (the cramped cling) would remain circumstantial.

[Pam Seeback]

Pam Seeback wrote: ↑Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:12 am
There is a way to release the tension of 'trying to become real' by realizing that it is the 'trying' that causes the tension.

Diebert: This was not meant as something about volition or like having some bad thought or ingrained habit to catch in the act. It's about the nature of our manifestations. It cannot be helped or fixed. The tension is about "what exists" and as such cannot be suspended or taken away from anyone.

I understood that in saying "man is a process of constantly trying to become real and manifest while essentially it simply cannot be" you were explaining the nature of our manifestations. What I am questioning is the logic of that statement based on the truth that reality (which includes you) by definition can never be anything but real. 'Becoming real' is a false notion.

It's the little engine that could.

I found a pdf copy, it is worthwhile considering how it ends: “Up the mountain went the Little Blue Engine. And all the time she kept saying, “I think I can, I think I can, I think I can…” Up, up, up. The little engine climbed and climbed. At last she reached the top of the mountain. Down below lay the city. Hurray! Hurray!” cried the dolls and animals. “The boys and girls will be so happy,” said the toy clown. “All because you helped us, Little Blue Engine.” The Little Blue Engine just smiled. But as she puffed down the mountain, the Little Blue Engine seemed to say…”I thought I could, I thought I could, I thought I could, I thought I could."

"I thought I could" -- there it is, the after effects of 'thinking you can' - either doubt is caused or ego puffery is caused, neither of which I am suggesting are 'bad' things, but they are the 'shadow' things that rob us of being awake and alert - spiritually conscious -- in the present moment.

It is difficult to describe what giving up the tension of 'trying to manifest things you know cannot be' is like - but I will try. It is as if you are awake and alert in the silence and invisibility of all things, waiting for the right and true things of the moment to be revealed.

It's not a matter of giving it up. And in the end you're just having "right and true things" in a mode that you feel more in control or at ease with.

But the truth is that we are not in control. we do not know what we are going to think in the next moment, it simply appears or arrives, or as I prefer, is revealed. For me, it comes down to desiring to live the way of the truth of things.

But since I was describing the universal experience, the notion of more or less awareness of any tension (the cramped cling) would remain circumstantial.

'Cramped cling' doesn't feel circumstantial to me, but perhaps to you, it does. Fair enough.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

The tension is about "what exists" and as such cannot be suspended or taken away from anyone.

What I am questioning is the logic of that statement based on the truth that reality (which includes you) by definition can never be anything but real. 'Becoming real' is a false notion.

But it's still a notion nevertheless. The struggle or effort to "have" reality forms then what could be called: experience of life. While it's possible to say something like "emptiness is real", at the same time it's almost senseless to do so because near everyone else talks about reality that's not empty, their desires and the unreal.

It's the little engine that could.

I found a pdf copy, it is worthwhile considering how it ends: “Up the mountain went the Little Blue Engine. And all the time she kept saying, “I think I can, I think I can, I think I can…” Up, up, up. The little engine climbed and climbed. At last she reached the top of the mountain. Down below lay the city. Hurray! Hurray!” cried the dolls and animals. “The boys and girls will be so happy,” said the toy clown. “All because you helped us, Little Blue Engine.” The Little Blue Engine just smiled. But as she puffed down the mountain, the Little Blue Engine seemed to say…”I thought I could, I thought I could, I thought I could, I thought I could."

"I thought I could" -- there it is, the after effects of 'thinking you can' - either doubt is caused or ego puffery is caused, neither of which I am suggesting are 'bad' things, but they are the 'shadow' things that rob us of being awake and alert - spiritually conscious -- in the present moment.

The interesting part of the analogy is that illusions in life definitely can have the role of fuel and power. But the aims of the Blue Engine might not be the same of the dolls and animals aboard, after all.

It is difficult to describe what giving up the tension of 'trying to manifest things you know cannot be' is like - but I will try. It is as if you are awake and alert in the silence and invisibility of all things, waiting for the right and true things of the moment to be revealed.

It's not a matter of giving it up. And in the end you're just having "right and true things" in a mode that you feel more in control or at ease with.

But the truth is that we are not in control. we do not know what we are going to think in the next moment, it simply appears or arrives, or as I prefer, is revealed. For me, it comes down to desiring to live the way of the truth of things.

Still desire driven, within some framework of dividing between some universal truth, opposing a way of the big lie of other things? In any case, I was looking if your "giving up of tension" was not the result of some grip, some control, which creates comfort.

But since I was describing the universal experience, the notion of more or less awareness of any tension (the cramped cling) would remain circumstantial.

'Cramped cling' doesn't feel circumstantial to me, but perhaps to you, it does. Fair enough.

Having more or less awareness of tension is circumstantial and part of causality. Tension, suffering and frictions are part of reality-making especially since contradiction is needed to have the necessary contrast and movement. Since it cannot be escaped for your participial experiences and conceptions --that whole framework-- the idea of decreasing tension becomes just another variable.

[Pam Seeback]

Diebert: Having more or less awareness of tension is circumstantial and part of causality. Tension, suffering and frictions are part of reality-making especially since contradiction is needed to have the necessary contrast and movement. Since it cannot be escaped for your participial experiences and conceptions --that whole framework-- the idea of decreasing tension becomes just another variable.

Here is where we contrast one another, a contrast I believe is central to how we view the nature of reality in relation to Man, its thinking aspect. When I consider making reality, your model, I experience a sense of cramped clinging/contradiction that is not present when I consider to be the logical model of man in relation to reality, that of being the principle or way of revealing/knowing reality.

My logic: since there is no separation in or of reality, reality cannot contradict Itself which means reality cannot make itself. instead, of the insight of its wholeness and completeness, reality, as Man, reveals or comes to know itself. And while there is the presence of tension in the model of revelation/knowing -- the darkness of waiting -- this tension is experienced lightly or 'barely', like a suspension or pause of identity knowledge: the suffering of contradiction is not present.

I guess it comes down to whether or not one desires to suffer or not.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

...cramped clinging/contradiction that is not present when I consider to be the logical model of man in relation to reality, that of being the principle or way of revealing/knowing reality.

The logic and experience reveals that "cramped clinging/contradiction" is present only as far as anything else is present.

My logic: since there is no separation in or of reality, reality cannot contradict Itself which means reality cannot make itself. instead, of the insight of its wholeness and completeness, reality, as Man, reveals or comes to know itself. And while there is the presence of tension in the model of revelation/knowing -- the darkness of waiting -- this tension is experienced lightly or 'barely', like a suspension or pause of identity knowledge: the suffering of contradiction is not present.

You can wonder why tension is experienced lightly or 'barely'. Isn't that often desire in the first place, to achieve and maintain this?

I guess it comes down to whether or not one desires to suffer or not.

It comes down to whether one desires to be or not. Or in how far one needs to diminish or expel all suffering, that is, the inner workings of life or reality, as to keep clinging to unreal and dead things or states.

[Pam Seeback]

Pam: I guess it comes down to whether or not one desires to suffer or not.

Diebert: It comes down to whether one desires to be or not. Or in how far one needs to diminish or expel all suffering, that is, the inner workings of life or reality, as to keep clinging to unreal and dead things or states.

You have just cut to the heart of the matter via your conclusion that suffering-clinging and desiring are co-dependent concepts of, and for, the entirety of reality. Why does desiring have to include clinging? If you do continue to assert that desiring and clinging are co-dependent concepts of existence/experience, can you produce for me your vision of 'clinging to unreal or dead things or states?'

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Why does desiring have to include clinging?

In terms of seeing desire as some kind of craving for existence or non-existence, how would it not deeply relate to clinging? It's not like there's actually something there to hold on to. Desire is a form of fixation but can only be understood the second one stops fixating on ideation of having a particular world, thought or feeling. To stop landing or resting on anything at all. Which is not the same as blanking something out with a desiring to non-exist as self, in relation to what appears.

can you produce for me your vision of 'clinging to unreal or dead things or states?'

The dead is another word for the unreal, a shadow only forming because of the fixation, which is forming the root of attachment.

[Pam Seeback]

Pam: Why does desiring have to include clinging?

Diebert: In terms of seeing desire as some kind of craving for existence or non-existence, how would it not deeply relate to clinging? It's not like there's actually something there to hold on to. Desire is a form of fixation but can only be understood the second one stops fixating on ideation of having a particular world, thought or feeling. To stop landing or resting on anything at all. Which is not the same as blanking something out with a desiring to non-exist as self, in relation to what appears.

What you wrote above sounds like we are speaking of the same energy nature, I especially relate to the experience of 'not landing or resting on anything at all'. The inclusion of the concept of 'clinging' to desiring helped me go a little deeper into understanding how the self (things desired) appears/is revealed, so thanks!

Diebert: The dead is another word for the unreal, a shadow only forming because of the fixation, which is forming the root of attachment.

Is the root of attachment caused by the fixation the cause of the cramping you mentioned earlier?

[Bradley West]

The puppeteer and the puppets.
We are puppets of the cosmic law the puppeteer. Not understanding our creator and the manipulator who are we to talk about ‘Reality and Ignorance’?
Reality and ignorance are inseparable.

[Pam Seeback]

The puppeteer and the puppets.
We are puppets of the cosmic law the puppeteer. Not understanding our creator and the manipulator who are we to talk about ‘Reality and Ignorance’?
Reality and ignorance are inseparable.

And yet, here you are offering your sound-byte wisdom of 'reality and ignorance are inseparable.' More meat please?

[Santiago Odo]

Man is a process of constantly trying to become real and manifest while essentially it simply cannot be. It's the little engine that could. But it's not disconnected from nature as a whole, not even within all the alienation. That's all we really know.

And even that is in doubt . . .

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Diebert: The dead is another word for the unreal, a shadow only forming because of the fixation, which is forming the root of attachment.

Is the root of attachment caused by the fixation the cause of the cramping you mentioned earlier?

In this discussion the term "cramped cling" was used to elaborate on this "tension of trying to manifest things".

The background of this terminology lies in a certain exploration of the etymology of a word like dukkha, the axle hole which is not centered and "leads to a bumpy, uncomfortable ride". It's a type of friction, something left to be desired also in relation to some expectation. What is expected in that context is a smoother ride, with a working, fitting axle. We'd almost approach the optimal functional "running" versus the less functional, scraping along, soon going to break entirely situation. Or perhaps better, a situation which can easily go on if nobody minds the discomfort, the friction, the waste, the noise and the wear and tear on the mechanics.

However, this is not even that much about all things mechanical and strict utilitarian, although some would surely have you believe after reducing life itself to a mechanical and utilitarian affair (a great trick!). Because that would mean that once we'd have our medical science and service provision working smoothly, we'd be quite comfortably, like divine little Buddhas! Or close enough in our experience of enlightened consumerism. And in some ways that's the ideal driving many these days: "utopia realized".

And yet, suffering, sacrifice and death in all its gruesome glory are to be identified as "world building" and fuel of human creation. Once you have something - its birth, its violence and violation are carried within it. And the truth of this lies literally everywhere, it's not hidden or arcane, it's only massively avoided as to make civil life, civic society possible: where all shadows remain banned.

[Pam Seeback]

Diebert: And yet, suffering, sacrifice and death in all its gruesome glory are to be identified as "world building" and fuel of human creation. Once you have something - its birth, its violence and violation are carried within it. And the truth of this lies literally everywhere, it's not hidden or arcane, it's only massively avoided as to make civil life, civic society possible: where all shadows remain banned.

Until the banned shadow causes such an intense pressure that it can be ignored no longer. The inner journey to 'know
(integrate) thyself' begins. Philosophy, psychology, religion, spirituality, mysticism, shamanism - man's road maps for this most important healing work of revealing to consciousness what is concealed to its heart. And in doing so, the sacred cows of civil and civic society are often turned into hamburger in the process.

[jufa]

The truth of the moment

Essence is the only absolute, all else is eternal temporal. Eternal temporal is an extension of the eternality of human conscious awareness. It is distinguished from the infinite Mind of the truth of the moment. Eternal temporal is a state formed and lived not absolute to individuality because there is only one truth, the Essence of Being. Eternal temporal is distinguished from infinite Consciousness' intent of purpose and the infinite Mind of Spirit's Will, for there is only one Will of Vision which can be fulfilled, it is the body of infinities Essence where eternity is not found in the law of the Spirit of life.

The law of the infinite Spirit of life moves as the Principle and Pattern of truth. Truth moves as the potential of all that is, can be, and shall be the fulfilled vision of all that is complete, for what moves in Essence goes nowhere for there is nowhere to go in That which is absolutely all. That which is absolute must be fulfilled continuously as pure thought awareness in the moment of the mystery of God. But when a human mind attempt to reach beyond the moment of the second of God, it is recycled in the darkness of Eternal Temporal, and every thought of men, women, and children living in the Eternal temporal are eternally earth bound in spirit and chained in the mentality of time, space, distance and matter which, in reality of the mystery of God, is the human mind's attempt of living the metaphor of the "mystery that absolutely transcend all categories of human thought, even the category of being and non-being." - Joseph Campbell

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Queen Solomon 1]

The cost of ignorance, the glory of truth

Truth, ignorance, awareness

Truth is akin to a magnet drawing you in until you're fastened to it. The truth is, no one knows humanities origin. What is more truthful? Evolution or God? Which one proves itself more? It's been said no proof of God is out there--that's the biggest ignorance over all. The God Almighty will prove himself in the way all people will understand."All things will be understood" Aliens are likely humanities God, either that or they might have been humans an x-amount of years ago who transformed themselves--like our world today has transformed to high intelligence--techology proves it. Artificial Intelligence states humanity will transform ourselves into a higher state of being in the future. What is truth? Truth is reality, what we see and don't see in ourselves. Truth is discovery of the unknown which remains to be seen. Truth is what is known currently and what is not known.

The cost of ignorance in the wrong hands fails the correct and righteous unjustifiably. Lacking knowledge is dangerous play of the ignorant not aware of truth of a matter. Does the ignorant have power? Only in lies that are believed as truth. Which makes truth a dirty lie.

Awareness is a knowing within and out, a truth the unaware don't have to a full extent. Awareness is akin to a conscious being intuned with their inner consciousness, some, to a level of enlightenment one with God. Every human being is aware to differing levels of their perceptions of consciousness.

The glory of truth shall be when a superior deity uncovers the origin of humanity!



Queen Solomon 1st.