Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Pam Seeback
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Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Pam Seeback » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:51 am

The true self is the conscience. The true self is the voice within that addresses questions and answers of right action, what is to be said or done. The right action of true self/conscience does not consult the collective idea of morality or ethics, therefore will not, because it cannot, cause 'rules of right action' for others. The voice of conscience is the individual voice of absolute authority. Its 'commandments' are immediate, formless, direct and unattached.

The conscience is caused, its cause is unknown. Herein lies the secret of its ability to (always) cause the true (right) thing. What I've said in this post is not absolute trurth or objective truth or subjective truth or logical truth, nor is a prodct of reasoning or believing. The truth of what I've said can only be verified by the true self of conscience.

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by JohnJAu » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:46 pm

It's child-like in nature though, it may be always be "right" in that single instant, but followed without consideration of the bigger picture, of causality, (without masculine reason perhaps) it can often be worthless, leading to no good outcomes. A sort of fantasy idealism that doesn't take into account realities.

It would work out perfectly if everyone were all Buddhas or Christs already, but what you described sounds altogether feminine to me, and someone following that advice is likely to cause consequences relatively quickly. I'm speaking from plenty of experience here, not just conjecture.

Though I can see how living like that might function reasonably well if you're a girl.

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Dan Rowden
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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Dan Rowden » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:49 pm

That's it, isn't it - a perfect description of feminine ethics. It feels right therefore it is right. For me this is the exact opposite of 'conscience'. However, maybe Pam can elucidate her thinking.

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Pam Seeback » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:25 pm

JohnJAu, I placed right action of conscience in the context of causality in my post, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion I was referring to the 'feeling heart' that on this board is associated with the causality-ignorant feminine.

In pointing out that ultimate cause cannot be known, I am providing the truth of the limitations of reasoning to determine true or actual causality. If the open-ended nature of reasoning is not accepted and is instead, believed to be an expression of absolute truth, then another form of causality-ignorance is being expressed.

As for placing forward an ideology of idealism, in no way at no time have I been a proponent of such a philosophy and most certainly do not associate living of one's conscience as being tied to an idea or a cause. The spirit of man cannot be contained in an idea. If a man or woman has an individual ideal or value, that is entirely different than the philosophy of idealism.

As I see it, as long as one realizes the truth that consciousness is individual (rather than subjective which to me suggests wrong view of the presence of a subject), they will avoid falling into the ignorance trap of the collective 'we' (idealism). Sometimes I believe that those on this board have fallen into this trap, reasoning as idealism rather than as an individual ideal. In truth, there is only the "I". This is ultimately what I mean by the term 'conscience.' Perhaps I was unclear in my original post, gratitude to Dan for the nudge to explain further.

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Pam Seeback » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:56 pm

A little more depth to the above:

The "I" is the ultimate experience of causality. It is not possible for a man or woman to experience a "we" of causality (idealism). Having said this, the man or woman who is conscious that ideals of the "I" have the power to effect (not always) ideals of other "I's", acts accordingly.

The man or woman of conscience never speaks for the "we" because, in truth, a thinking entity "we" does not exist. Where 'conscience' refers to a singular causal entity, morality and ethics is 'we' based, therefore false.

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by jufa » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:44 am

We fail to see what is being dealt with here is an idea. Idea has no value of truth beyond the thought and acceptance of it. Because the majority attach themselves to it does not mean it is so. And because in one circle of living one is considered intellectually super, does not mean their idea is the defining evidence of what is being discussed universally.

To this writer it is about being Sacred, or true to ones self without attachment to a church, organization, community, country, or nation which project an idea which makes ones soul cry, upon becoming aware of. Cry because ones soul knows if such projections and ideas were the truth of what is sacred and holy, then the tumults which has constituted wars and financial upheaval in the world today could not exist.

What is sacred is what brings peace and harmony to an individuals life, and that harmony is absorbed by all who come into contact with such a being, and practice that harmony with the knowledge that such practice cause change in the world around them for the better.

There is a center - it is the Conscience of self's inner conscience - to our circle but it does not exist unless we turn. That center is the individual them self. Let me explain. For every cause in an individual's life, there must have a jumping off point to affect how their life will be lived. That point manifest when the pins of thinking sticks them. It is then the mechanism of ones thinking process begins to move, churning, taking actions mentally or physically in that nanosecond. A thought is born and turned out. Like the vagabond, It goes to the utmost part of the universe of it DNA path of thought and thinking. for we are not only the center, we are the circumference of ourselves also.

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Pam Seeback » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:08 am

jufa: We fail to see what is being dealt with here is an idea.
We fail to see? This is the 'we' I was speaking of above that does not exist.
Idea has no value of truth beyond the thought and acceptance of it.
Truth.
Because the majority attach themselves to it does not mean it is so. And because in one circle of living one is considered intellectually super, does not mean their idea is the defining evidence of what is being discussed universally.
Truth. Which is why the man or woman of conscience does not speak for 'we' or 'us.'
To this writer it is about being Sacred, or true to ones self without attachment to a church, organization, community, country, or nation which project an idea which makes ones soul cry, upon becoming aware of. Cry because ones soul knows if such projections and ideas were the truth of what is sacred and holy, then the tumults which has constituted wars and financial upheaval in the world today could not exist.
There is no truth of what is sacred and holy. These are your ideas (as per your [true] first statement above) therefore cannot be applied to the All.
What is sacred is what brings peace and harmony to an individuals life, and that harmony is absorbed by all who come into contact with such a being, and practice that harmony with the knowledge that such practice cause change in the world around them for the better.
It seems to me as if you are implying that there is an absolute ideal (idea) realm of sacredness and holiness and that if we could just reach it or know it that we would all be the ideal (idea) 'sacred and holy'. If you are asserting this, does it not contradict your statement above of
jufa: Idea has no value of truth beyond the thought and acceptance of it

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by jufa » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:02 am

Quote jufa:
To this writer it is about being Sacred, or true to ones self without attachment to a church, organization, community, country, or nation which project an idea which makes ones soul cry, upon becoming aware of. Cry because ones soul knows if such projections and ideas were the truth of what is sacred and holy, then the tumults which has constituted wars and financial upheaval in the world today could not exist.
Quote Pam There is no truth of what is sacred and holy. These are your ideas (as per your [true] first statement above) therefore cannot be applied to the Al
You fail to take note: "To this writer it is about being Sacred, or true to ones self without attachment." And in so doing, you also fail to take note what the writer has experience is his sacredness of living, and being " true to ones self." An experience is never an idea. It is the holy grail which cause one to walk to and fro from the circumference to the central substance of their awareness of what is only their truth of living. No one else can define that.

When one states
Pam. There is no truth of what is sacred and holy
it is their deduction and induction of their ideology of believing they can interpret truth for the 'we', and override the experience of what has taken place in the individual.
Quote:jufa
What is sacred is what brings peace and harmony to an individuals life, and that harmony is absorbed by all who come into contact with such a being, and practice that harmony with the knowledge that such practice cause change in the world around them for the better.

Quote Pam It seems to me as if you are implying that there is an absolute ideal (idea) realm of sacredness and holiness and that if we could just reach it or know it that we would all be the ideal (idea) 'sacred and holy'. If you are asserting this, does it not contradict your statement above of


How can you imply what I am implying when you cannot tell whether sacred does, or doesn't, bring peace and harmony to an individuals life being you have testify
"There is no truth of what is sacred and holy"?
Moreover, are you not now backtracking are you? Did you not say:
This is the 'we' I was speaking of above that does not exist.
but then speak of the existence of 'we'?
Pam
It seems to me as if you are implying that there is an absolute ideal (idea) realm of sacredness and holiness and that if we could just reach
What 'we' am I asserting, or speaking this to Pam, when it is clearly stated "To this writer"?

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Pam Seeback » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:16 am

jufa, you said "to this writer" but your words, to this listener, did not match this declaration of individual attachment. Perhaps I misheard, perhaps my words to your ear suffered the same fate, such is the nature of the conditioned, relative thinking life.

For me, our dialogue provided an opportunity to renew my conviction to be aware of the pitfalls of confusing beliefs with truth. To me, this is conscience, this is wisdom, which, of course, are also conditioned ideas. :-)

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by jufa » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:20 am

Pam Seeback wrote:jufa, you said "to this writer" but your words, to this listener, did not match this declaration of individual attachment. Perhaps I misheard, perhaps my words to your ear suffered the same fate, such is the nature of the conditioned, relative thinking life.

For me, our dialogue provided an opportunity to renew my conviction to be aware of the pitfalls of confusing beliefs with truth. To me, this is conscience, this is wisdom, which, of course, are also conditioned ideas. :-)
Pam, are my words precise to your definition of that which is subjective to your experience, or to mine? You must realize word relativity is totally individualized, and only subject to individual interpretation. This is why when one determines another's attitude, or anger, happiness, style of expression, or any emotion which is not in harmony with what is being experience by the writer, they have dissevered the principle of communication, sabotaged the fellowship of expansive constructive dialogue, and labeled the individual unjustly.

There is a right path for each and every individual to take. It is the path they were born to take. Allow me to continue this way.

"It really boils down to this: that all life is interrelated. We are all caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied into a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. We are made to live together because of the interrelated structure of reality." - M.L.King, Jr.


A human being is part of a whole, called by us the ‘Universe,’ a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest – a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. The striving to free oneself from this delusion is the one issue of true religion. Not to nourish the delusion but to try to overcome it is the way to reach the attainable measure of peace of mind.
(From a note to Robert S. Marcus, 12 Feb., 1950, on the occasion of his son passing away due to polio.) - Albert Einstein

John Muir - When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by JohnJAu » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:31 pm

Pam Seeback wrote:JohnJAu, I placed right action of conscience in the context of causality in my post, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion I was referring to the 'feeling heart' that on this board is associated with the causality-ignorant feminine.
"the voice within"

"The voice of conscience is the individual voice of absolute authority. Its 'commandments' are immediate, "

Because it appeared you heavily implied it's a sort of conscience that just "knows immediately" and acts without much consideration, and without reasoning. You also said it always causes the right thing. Sorry I meant to say "overly optimistic" in regard to this, I didn't mean idealism. I did indeed mistake your meaning to be the "feeling heart".
Pam Seeback wrote:I am providing the truth of the limitations of reasoning to determine true or actual causality. If the open-ended nature of reasoning is not accepted and is instead, believed to be an expression of absolute truth, then another form of causality-ignorance is being expressed.
That's true and clarifies it. Those limitations are near infinite. Man plans, God laughs. Still, man should plan.
Pam Seeback wrote:As I see it, as long as one realizes the truth that consciousness is individual (rather than subjective which to me suggests wrong view of the presence of a subject), they will avoid falling into the ignorance trap of the collective 'we' (idealism). Sometimes I believe that those on this board have fallen into this trap, reasoning as idealism rather than as an individual ideal. In truth, there is only the "I". This is ultimately what I mean by the term 'conscience.'
Another great insight, as usual. "The ordinary man hates solitude."-Tao Te Ching (S.Mitchell). And he fears emptiness. These seem to be some main reasons one not only falls into, but also desires, to be part of 'the ignorance trap of the collective "we"'.
Pam Seeback wrote:JohnJAu
It's seekerofwisdom btw.
Pam Seeback wrote:The "I" is the ultimate experience of causality.
I=
Ultimate experience of causality=

'"“From Brahma to the last blade of grass--
I alone exist.”
One who knows this for certain
becomes immaculate, serene, unconflicted.
Attainment has no meaning."'
-Ashtavakra gita

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Pam Seeback » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:31 pm

It did cross my mind that it was you, Seeker. Glad you and Alex are back, the spice in the GF stir fry!

Nothing like giving the feeling-heart that is unaware of emptiness free range to discover just how quickly one can become a slave to the passion-fear imaginings of 'other'. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt, don't want to go back.

When I first realized the truth of emptiness, I became fearful that if the feeling heart were silenced that "I" would disappear into a bland, logical, nihilistic wasteland. But I have since realized that the feeling heart cannot totally be silenced. Instead, that it can be made subtle and refined so as not to become attached to 'other'.

It is my belief that the male posters on this forum experience the feminine aspect of spirit every day in some form or another, but for whatever reason, do not speak of it here, or least not very often. After all, the conscience that considers causality is not 'on' 24/7. It is also my belief that denial of the joyful, playful feminine aspect of spirit (awareness of oneness, of free-flowing/merging of distinctions) is just as harmful to the "I" that denies the causality-guided, distinction-making masculine aspect of spirit. Let the Boy lead when making decisions, yes, this is wisdom, but when He is not needed (and he is needed a lot less than most Boys believe), it is also wisdom to let the Girl out to play.

Long rant, am interested in your view on the relationship of distinction-making to distinction-merging-releasing.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:58 pm

Pam Seeback wrote:It is my belief that the male posters on this forum experience the feminine aspect of spirit every day in some form or another, but for whatever reason, do not speak of it here, or least not very often.
Like... what?
It is also my belief that denial of the joyful, playful feminine aspect of spirit
Aren't you perhaps confusing "not picking up on joy or play" as a personal opinion like "there is here no joy or play"?

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by JohnJAu » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:58 am

Pam Seeback wrote:just how quickly one can become a slave to the passion-fear imaginings of 'other'.
Who wouldn't be passionate or afraid when attempting to comprehend and squeeze the existence of billions of "other" into the I.
Pam Seeback wrote:When I first realized the truth of emptiness
At one point when I first realized the truth of emptiness I was very afraid, the void may as well have been death, as if I were going to snap right out of reality.

As I understand it, and this is only part of it, awareness leads to recognition of emptiness, to most that's simply an experience of existential confusion, along with other kinds of existential fears, and as people fear it, therefore there is the drowning of awareness all day long every day. Que music, sport, tv, work, love, gatherings, parties, ipods, and so on. Few motives at the core of nearly all the activity. It's likely why Alex posts here, for example. Needs something to do, somewhere engaging and thus safely distracting to sit, without that, their minds are overcome with the suffering of the never ending weight of emotion, fear, burning desire and thought. Hence why I was always a fan of Dennis' endless repetition of "groundlessness".
Pam Seeback wrote:It is my belief that the male posters on this forum experience the feminine aspect of spirit every day in some form or another, but for whatever reason, do not speak of it here, or least not very often. After all, the conscience that considers causality is not 'on' 24/7. It is also my belief that denial of the joyful, playful feminine aspect of spirit (awareness of oneness, of free-flowing/merging of distinctions) is just as harmful to the "I" that denies the causality-guided, distinction-making masculine aspect of spirit. Let the Boy lead when making decisions, yes, this is wisdom, but when He is not needed (and he is needed a lot less than most Boys believe), it is also wisdom to let the Girl out to play.

Long rant, am interested in your view on the relationship of distinction-making to distinction-merging-releasing.
It's a difficult subject to express in words. The only authentic answer I can give is that I don't notice any change any longer, I would say that I rarely, if ever, contemplate the nature of reality using the verbal. The verbal is most commonly an expression of need and seeking. I most clearly associate the feminine with the experience of emotion, attachment, fear, weakness, desire, and worldliness. In my experience of femininity, the longer I was in a co-dependent relationship with a feminine and emotional girl, the more strongly I was affected by the feminine and the emotional. The wisdom in me attempted to combat such attitudes and clearly saw them as ignorance, but at 22, there was of course little hope in reason prevailing in a girl, or me knowing how to achieve such a thing, if a wise relationship is even a possibility. Since the end of that, I no longer notice any experiences of emotional weakness, fear, confusion, or worry. Independence and 'non-attachment' has clearly won out over any traces of worldly desire. I also don't notice any shift in states of awareness of 'oneness' or 'distinction-making'. That there could be a shift at all is a bit absurd.

It's a bit like the way in which academic philosophy contains a lot of absurd nonsense, meaningful only from certain perspectives with certain attachments.

Reality is of course best expressed in silence. Words, stories, verbal philosophies, recounts of experiences, they are always inauthentic to a degree, usually a large degree, and are mostly just an avenue for ego propagation.


Quinn summed it up recently in a thread, Samsara and Nirvana being the same reality from different perspectives. (Something along those lines.)

So perhaps the experience of wisdom is well expressed in this point you originally gave:
(Some of the other words you used, like conscience, authority, "right thing", originally seemed over dramatic.)
Pam Seeback wrote: immediate, formless, direct and unattached.
This is good, but I don't see where the feminine is in any of it. Again, this subject is really so vague and ineffable, it's as you said, individual. It doesn't need to work in the context of a "we". "We" both experience it like this, or define it like that, etc.

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Pam Seeback » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:09 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Pam Seeback wrote:It is my belief that the male posters on this forum experience the feminine aspect of spirit every day in some form or another, but for whatever reason, do not speak of it here, or least not very often.
Like... what?
It is also my belief that denial of the joyful, playful feminine aspect of spirit
Aren't you perhaps confusing "not picking up on joy or play" as a personal opinion like "there is here no joy or play"?
I agree, it would have been more honest to say "not picking up on joy or play." And, for the most part, I am not picking up on joy or play. Even in my own posts, my own doing of course. Something I'd love to change, but I must confess, my fear of such posts ending up in the Worldly Matters forum keeps my Joy pen at bay.

Direct question: do you believe that emphasis on the masculine such as displayed on GF, perhaps even to the point of exclusivity, allows for or includes consideration of play and joy as an integral aspect of enlightenment/wisdom?

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Pam Seeback » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:22 am

Pam Seeback wrote:
immediate, formless, direct and unattached.
John: This is good, but I don't see where the feminine is in any of it. Again, this subject is really so vague and ineffable, it's as you said, individual. It doesn't need to work in the context of a "we". "We" both experience it like this, or define it like that, etc.
Spiritual play in the form of poetry or prose is immediate, formless, direct and unattached as it addresses the singular, whole, (infinite) I. Perhaps my defining the playful side of the "I" as being feminine is creating an unnecessary mental blaock, but I find it is helpful to use this term to counter the emphasis on the masculine here at GF. Taoism describes 'spirit' in terms of yin and yang, not as two separate things, but two-in-one.

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Pam Seeback » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:58 am

Should have addressed this statement first:
John: Reality is of course best expressed in silence. Words, stories, verbal philosophies, recounts of experiences, they are always inauthentic to a degree, usually a large degree, and are mostly just an avenue for ego propagation.
You are a young man who is aware of the incompleteness of all verbal expressions but surely you can see that silence of thought is impractical, if not downright untenable/impossible. Do you see a way to speak and write that acknowledges finitude in face of the infinite so that the restless spirit is not repressed or suppressed? Wherein the ego is present minimally/subtly or not at all?

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by JohnJAu » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:33 pm

I didn't say anything about the silence of thought. I was specifically referring to contemplating/seeking the nature of reality, as if it were some question, that sort of seeking is no longer present, it is often only a need/desire.


You would need a restless spirit for that. I would also associate restlessness with desire.

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:32 pm

Pam Seeback wrote: Something I'd love to change, but I must confess, my fear of such posts ending up in the Worldly Matters forum keeps my Joy pen at bay.
It's unclear why you'd fear posting in another section of the forum where many threads on music, poetry, news and humor are residing. Or do you think your brand of lightheartedness deserves some kind of "spiritual status" and reside in the enlightenment section? Lightness starts with being able to step over such things. It seems to me such fear is exactly that gravity of seriousness.
Direct question: do you believe that emphasis on the masculine such as displayed on GF, perhaps even to the point of exclusivity, allows for or includes consideration of play and joy as an integral aspect of enlightenment/wisdom?
You need to give me examples of play and joy or explain your definitions. It's possible we have completely different ideas here.

Perhaps I can quote your other post to John for that?
Pam Seeback wrote:Spiritual play in the form of poetry or prose is immediate, formless, direct and unattached as it addresses the singular, whole, (infinite) I. Perhaps my defining the playful side of the "I" as being feminine is creating an unnecessary mental block, but I find it is helpful to use this term to counter the emphasis on the masculine here at GF. Taoism describes 'spirit' in terms of yin and yang, not as two separate things, but two-in-one.
Taoism uses masculine and feminine in a whole other way, as some cosmic constants like firm and flow. One should be careful applying that usage mindlessness to the way gender terminology has been developing at this forum. Some of it might apply but they are in the end really different categories, like a different granularity.

As for spiritual play in the form of poetry or prose, so many posts here (including but not limited to mine) are attempting to play with the immediate, formless, direct and unattached forms of phrasing, pointing, reasoning and rhyming, so often that anyone missing out on that has just little sense of art altogether. It would be like reading Nietzsche in a bad translation and saying he's a mechanical thinker of some kind while ignoring his significance as a master of German language, as a powerful and playful writer, including his intriguing multi-level aphorisms, his poetry or his heartfelt passionate correspondence and even the attempts at musical compositions. What remains in people's mind is the harsh, "bloody" attacking elements, with all the women suddenly finding philosophy "difficult" and heady! Or in other words: lets avoid hard or salty play like some kind of snail?

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by JohnJAu » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:59 pm

Anyway, it seems that the feminine is more likely to prevent playfulness, usually due to fear and worry. Just now moving expressed her fear which held her back from joy and play.

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by Pam Seeback » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:31 am

Longing grows winter wind
And summer breeze;
Alone, life's taste is known.
Drink deep of my longing well
cries Man, together
be alone with me.

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Re: Conscience, the experience of wisdom

Post by jupiviv » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:34 pm

FAPS - Funny Acronyms for Philosophy's Sake.
BALLS - Before Almighty Love's Lure Snares.
CLAWS - Common Law Appreciation in Women's Studies.
FUCK - Fatally Underestimated Clementine Kensho.
SHIT - Sorry, but, How Is this Trolling?
TITS - That's It; Toodles, Sugartits.

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