Statement about Solway and Trump

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David Quinn
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Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by David Quinn » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:58 am

Hi everyone,

It’s been a long time since I have written here. After taking a break from philosophic activism and writing for around three years, I’m now refreshed and back in the saddle. I hope that you are all well and more enlightened than ever!

The reason I am writing today is that I have recently come to learn, much to my amazement, that Kevin Solway has given himself entirely over to the Breitbart worldview and endorses Trump’s presidency. Given that Kevin and I have a shared history and collaborated on quite a few projects in the past, I want to put it on record in the strongest possible terms that I do not share his new-found views in any way. I want to make it clear that I completely reject Trump and all he stands for, and I consider the Breitbart site to be a sick joke.

I don’t really want to bad-mouth Kevin, as I still have great respect for the work he has done in the past, but I do need to articulate clearly my opposition to what he is doing at the moment. It is horrifying on so many levels. And it needs to be done in public because it is not just his name and reputation that he is trashing with his foolish behaviour. It is also mine and Dan's, and everyone who has collaborated with him in the past and everyone here on Genius Forum. It is thus an issue that can’t be buried. I have alerted Kevin to the existence of this post, and so I am expecting that he will come on here and defend himself.

How did we get to this situation? Well, while I was away on my break, Kevin became heavily involved in the gamergate affair, which was essentially an on-line culture war between young males and a bunch of feminists and political correctness advocates, who came to be known as “social justice warriors”. This fed into the popularization of the Breitbart site and other far-right and alt-right communities, which subsequently became mouthpieces for Trump’s propaganda. Like many who voted for Trump, Kevin now shuns the mainstream media altogether, believing them to be evil liars, and wholly immerses himself in the far right universe of Breitbart and other similar sites. He believes that Trump is so far doing a fine job, that he is being “consistent and reliable” and that he is “doing what he has promised to do”.

My own path to Trump was quite different. I don’t usually pay much attention to politics as a rule, but I first began to follow Trump’s antics back in August last year, when he bizarrely started attacking the Khan family, the Muslim-American family whose son was killed on the battlefield. It then came to my attention that Trump was giving contradictory statements about whether or not he had met Putin. I then began to look into his business history and became aware of his many scams and realized that he was a con-artist. He then made that mad dash over to Mexico and followed it up that night with a fascist speech about immigration. By then, I knew for sure that Trump was attempting a hostile take-over of America, with the aim of installing a police state. I realized that behind all the buffoonery, Trump was actually very cunning and malignant.

Everything he has done since has only added weight to this conclusion. There is no doubt in my mind that Trump is deliberately riding roughshod over the US Constitution and methodically trying to shut down all democratic institutions in an attempt to grab absolute power for himself. I know this because it is clear to me that he does not know how to operate in any other way. He has no capacity to govern in a normal, sensible manner. The only thing he knows is to keep sowing chaos, keep taking advantage of the resulting mayhem and keep expanding his power until he can do it no more. And when he succeeds in going all the way and securing absolute power over America, it won’t stop there. He will continue expanding ever outwards.

He is like the Borg from Star Trek, relentlessly consuming norms, conventions, rules, laws, morals, truths, decency, breaking everything down, consuming everything in his path. There is nothing switched on upstairs. There is no hint of any kind of higher life. It is just consumption and moving on to the next target, and nothing more.

Trump is increasingly being compared to various tyrants and strongmen of the past, such as Mussolini, Hugo Chavez, Silvano Bertelloni and Stalin, but for me the one name that comes to mind is Mao Zedong and his attempt to Make China Great Again (or as he termed it, “The Great Leap Forward”). Like Trump, Mao often lived in a fact-free environment and relied on pure ideology to shape his policies. Perhaps the most comic-tragic example of this was his war on the "Four Pests", wherein he issued an edict to everyone in the country that all sparrows must be killed. Not realizing how important the sparrow was in the ecological scheme of things, the end result of this fact-free foolishness was widespread famine in which 45 million people starved to death.

This is what we all face now. A lunatic who makes up policy on a whim without bothering to consider facts. Virtually all of Trump’s views and policies thus far either rest on “alternative facts”, or on no facts at all. Whether it be the big beautiful wall, the immigration ban against those seven countries, the investigation into 3 to 5 million illegal voters, the war on climate change policy, linking autism to vaccines, equating Putin’s regime with a normal democracy, attacking the judiciary, attacking the intelligence services, asserting the need to engage in trade wars, and so on ad infinitum - nearly all of it is based on information that is purely fictitious. Who needs facts when you can get by with exploiting the fear and ignorance of your followers?

I am no politician, but even I know there is no way on God’s earth that policies created in a fact-free environment are going to make anything great again, let alone America. The consequences of this foolishness, not just for Americans but for all of us across the world, will be devastating. Yet Kevin Solway is perfectly ok with all this because, and note this well, Trump also promises to sweep away the evil feminists and social justice warriors. For it seems they are the ones who constitute the biggest threat to humanity.

If Trump manages to succeed in his hostile take-over of America and installs a totalitarian regime, do his followers really believe that things will be better? Do they honestly think there is going to be more freedom of speech, an unbiased media, universities free of political correctness and all that? Is Trump really the man to create this Utopia? One look at the man tells you no. He is, simply put, an unfettered ball of destruction. If left unchecked, he will sweep away not only the undesirable aspects of the liberal establishment - the feminism and the political correctness - but also everything that makes the liberal establishment great - namely, a free press, a culture of individual rights, a non-politicized judicial system, a non-politicized education system, a cultural deference to expertise, a culture of free scientific inquiry, and so on.

If all these structures are swept away, what will replace them? What will fill the vacuum? Everyone will be as egotistical as ever, we can be sure of that, so what will be left to serve as a check? Not a lot, I would say. Criminals and thugs would be free to take over. Society would go feudal. The values of right-wing Christian fundamentalism would be rammed down our throats. The concept of individual rights would disappear. All in all, it would represent a massive step backwards into the Middle Ages. How will this be an improvement over what we have today? How will this benefit the survival of wisdom? It won’t, clearly. And yet Kevin Solway is perfectly okay with such a prospect because it means that the evil social justice warriors and feminists, who apparently are the biggest threat to humanity, will also be swept away.

If Trump manages to succeed in his hostile take-over of America, how will the environment fare? He has already declared that climate change is a hoax and intends to engage in the wholesale elimination of environmental regulations. Such a prospect is clearly disastrous for our future prosperity and well-being as a species. Or what about his barely-veiled intention to start multiple wars with China and Iran, and possibly North Korea and Mexico as well? Or the prospect of plunging the world into economic depression because of his chaotic and disruptive leadership? Or suddenly instigating a nuclear war because of a 4am temper tantrum? All of these nightmarish scenarios are disturbingly plausible because a lunatic is now in charge. And yet Kevin Solway is perfectly okay with it all because yep, you guessed it, Trump also promises to sweep away the social justice warriors and feminists, who are so evil and such a threat to the world that they apparently have to be stopped at all costs.

I could go on and on, but I’ll stop there. I just wanted to make it plain that I do not support Trump or Breitbart or the whole right-wing/anti-establishment movement which is sweeping through America and Europe. I think it is a complete disaster. The hordes that are fueling this movement are thoroughly deluding themselves. And mentally-ill, wanna-be tyrants like Trump are taking advantage of this massive exercise in self-deception to grab power for themselves. The Breitbart cult members are being used as dupes. Kevin Solway is being used as a dupe.

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Eric Schiedler
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by Eric Schiedler » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:25 pm

This is my first post and I intend it to serve as an introduction and a direct participation.

Trump and Democracy
Because I live in the United States, I can readily observe that American voters have been trying to vote for a candidate like Trump for a very long time. That is because there are many mini-Trumps among ordinary citizens. These are people in all walks of life who admire Trump for the simple reason that they want to BE Trump. Trump is the manifestation of the Daddy Warbucks archetype in American mythology. People of the same character who want to be like Trump want to enact simple, mindless, and unthinking solutions to alleviate the wounds of their egos. Their imaginations run wild when they fantasize that there is a sum of money they can possess with which the concept of money as a limitation to their plans completely disappears. Trump sells this image continuously.

These voters have searched for a figure like him in past elections. He is simply the pure, distilled form of the populist politician they have always wanted to admire. The political process does not always make available to the electorate a candidate in this purified form. Yet the underlying sentiment has existed among the voters for a very long time, perhaps since the formation of the democracy. I won’t lay out the entire argument here, but let me suggest that it is a prima facie case that all democracies that are built upon the millions of minds of egotistical voters contain within them the venom of populism.

What appeals to voters is that Trump paints with language in bold, colorful, and evocative strokes and he is able to do it quickly in any media setting. Contradictions in his statements are irrelevant because the motion of the language is what voters see as evidence of a powerful leader. That is what they want to see in the fantasy where they imagine themselves at the center of a victorious wave against forces that threaten to interrupt the satiation of their desires. And that is also the reason why he can be so easily hated by the emotional protesters. That is why so many can march against Trump with mindless slogans or allow the anarchists to infiltrate their marches in order to destroy property. While it seems that they are politically opposed to Trump, they want a mirror version of Donald Trump to vote for in order to oppose Trump but in an ultimate sense they also support the same raw emotional sentiment that supports a populist candidate.

The Relationship between Politics and the Infinite
After reading David’s post, I was left wondering about his thoughts about the ultimate nature of leaders and their symbolic status in our democracies, or more pertinently put, a commentary to the point that we are part of Nature that creates forms that take the shape of Donald Trump. As I see it, Trump is a demon that has taken solid form. In mythological stories, the powerful, invincible, dark force in the unknown that is the Enemy often confronts the heroes by taking solid form, and does so often, but not always, in the shape of an evil human, wizard, or humanoid being. But by taking a discrete shape, the once-invincible enemy is weakened. That is a key part of the myth. So too we can see that it is the case with Trump; he is identifiable as a single man with a political office and thus can be defeated; he can fall easily.

Trump requires the support of a political party, primarily the Republicans, in order to enact his whirlwind of power. Yet the democracy of the United States is balanced between political interests in the cities centered around trade and finance against the political interests of the landed classes in rural areas (interests such as corporate farming and mining). In every political victory in the United States, there is sown the seeds of the next defeat. As clumsy and dangerous as is this balancing feature in the democracy, it has created stability since the Civil War.

What is far more dangerous than Trump, in my view, is the vast turbulent energy in the unwise that gives birth to the power that takes form in Trump. These bitter egoists imagined a United States in which women are sweet, feminine, and comforting. They’ve imagined that their participation as citizens will be rewarded with money, luxuries, and leisure in the bosom of feminine hedonism. As Nature has rudely shocked them into suffering, they have turned to resentment, which is an intoxicating poison. It is the poison bite of the serpent as it turns them into stone. In their resentment they boil their hatred in circular arguments from which they cannot free themselves and from which they insulate themselves against the light of reason that intends to release them from their torment. As they turn into hollow souls they sharpen their knives to seek out those they deem to be traitors. These are the people that feed the unseen dangers. They are willing to see a fully functional democracy collapse for that very reason.

Breitbart and its Main Contradiction
The main problem with the Breitbart news outlet is the same problem of traditional conservative (trad-con) and alternative right (alt-right) movements. Ostensibly, they want to fight a clear enemy, and they have identified it in a broad manner as feminism and the support for the feminist and SJW movements. However, one of the main goals of the trad-con and alt-right movements is to create a society that returns to shared values taken from an arbitrarily-chosen historical era. Nietzsche warned against the tendency of the masses to embody memory. In that manner, memory becomes a comfortable resting place in which they can shut out all dangers and also as a place where they can comfortably rest in their ignorance. They seek the refuge of history and in doing so they reject the creativity, innovation, and reason necessary to bring wisdom into the world.

But what is the history of traditionalism but the very birthplace of feminism?!! After all, Athena was born directly from the head of Zeus after he swallowed her mother! Traditional culture, at least as far as I can tell, was an environment in which men wanted their wives and daughters to be happy and offered them the pleasures of feminism. Breitbart and similar news outlets that cater to the alt-right don’t want to defeat feminism as a way to instill the use of reason into people around the world but rather to engage in a symbolic battle whose aim is to return to the very animal realm that created feminism in the first place!

Thus, the fact that at the moment these movements support Trump is rather irrelevant. What they really support is the continuation of a process that has supported the unconsciousness of the feminine mind and the will to seek union with this unconsciousness. It has not supported the drive to reason and consciousness. Therefore, supporting the attack by the alt-right upon the anti-SJW movement is like playing with un-grounded electricity.

Eric Schiedler

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:12 pm

Welcome Eric! And hello David, good to see you're back at the saddle!

As for American politics, to be honest I'm surprised you're engaged with the topic as much as you sound here. More so for Kevin. Isn't all that went on the last decades in Washington DC or Trump Tower light years away from the values you pursued? So to what can we compare a Trump administration? While Trump might display in his anti-establishment drive all the ugly, conflicted, bankrupt thought made into normal by that same establishment for decades, deep down nothing seems really changing. To me it seems everything is now a bit more on display which mesmerises some and abhors others. In both cases there seems some idealism at work in both protester and follower. Trump however shows how the ugly world works, how emotion ridden, delusion rich and far removed from truth it all remains and perhaps even has to stay to survive. The main problem with alt-right would be the foolish belief they have cracked the code somehow, that their version of social reality is more truthful than the ones they reject. More energetic perhaps? More seductive as story? As if people crave something "raw" and call it truth? To me it's the same old song but in a harsher light, having more exposure in modern neon light.

When George W. Bush was in power with his Whitehouse cabal in 2001, I was more of an on-line activist and worried about world wars or decline. Now I just understand how little different it was from what went before and came later. Politics has been hollowed out for a long time, now the rot sets in and like a hollow tree all kinds of critters start making their home in it. The fate of empires visible in historical records.

Anyway at the Worldly Matters section there's a thread called Trumpism which tried the explore the Trump topic since it's hard to get to a philosophical element even when criticizing it (and the truth of Trump might be very well that there's nothing underneath to even address). Overall I do like the increased contrast and instability Trump brings to our manufactured false world. Ironically Trump himself displays big time everything he rails against. So it's the contradiction of the system itself which is starting to bloom. Then again the alternative universe of Breitbart is something I haven't even considered.

David, what do you think of my suspicion that enlightenment wisdom would manifest like a peak experience in a human life? Meaning that it cannot hold during a lifetime, that it starts a serious decline or just goes out with a bang. Perhaps you can prove the theory wrong?

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by David Quinn » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:11 pm

Hi Eric,
As I see it, Trump is a demon that has taken solid form.
I think you're onto something here. Right from the beginning, there has been a very dark element to Trump’s candidacy, which has placed people under a spell. No matter how much Trump lied openly to people, or offended them with his crassness, or revealed how incompetent he was, or openly showed how fascist he was going to govern - no one seemed to mind. Indeed, it just made him even more popular. Only a demon has the power to do that.

In mythological stories, the powerful, invincible, dark force in the unknown that is the Enemy often confronts the heroes by taking solid form, and does so often, but not always, in the shape of an evil human, wizard, or humanoid being. But by taking a discrete shape, the once-invincible enemy is weakened. That is a key part of the myth. So too we can see that it is the case with Trump; he is identifiable as a single man with a political office and thus can be defeated; he can fall easily.
This is a good point too. With his inauguration, Trump is no longer able to get away with just spinning illusions and shadow-boxing. Sooner or later, the man has to make concrete decisions and palatable polices. And that may be the time when the spell is broken. Let’s hope so!

Breitbart and similar news outlets that cater to the alt-right don’t want to defeat feminism as a way to instill the use of reason into people around the world but rather to engage in a symbolic battle whose aim is to return to the very animal realm that created feminism in the first place!

Thus, the fact that at the moment these movements support Trump is rather irrelevant. What they really support is the continuation of a process that has supported the unconsciousness of the feminine mind and the will to seek union with this unconsciousness. It has not supported the drive to reason and consciousness. Therefore, supporting the attack by the alt-right upon the anti-SJW movement is like playing with un-grounded electricity.
Yes, there is nothing noble in these movements. You go to the Breitbart site and there is not a hint of higher culture. There is no beauty, no higher thought, no expressions of the eternal, nothing. You look at Trump and it is exactly the same. Just a bunch of ugly animals following another ugly animal.

And just to top it all off, just to add the womanly cherry on top of the feminine cake, everything that comes out of Trump’s mouth are henids.

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by David Quinn » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:22 pm

Hey Diebert,
As for American politics, to be honest I'm surprised you're engaged with the topic as much as you sound here.

I can’t ignore the signs. The end times are upon us. We have to prepare.

While Trump might display in his anti-establishment drive all the ugly, conflicted, bankrupt thought made into normal by that same establishment for decades, deep down nothing seems really changing.
It might be different this time. It is not just Trump, there are numerous forms of political instability coming into being. So many people are wanting to see the West destroyed - and increasing numbers of them are Westerners themselves. How long can the system withstand this pressure?

On the other hand, the current right-wing backlash could turn out to be nothing more than the last gasp of a dying conservative movement. If Trump is undermined early in his fascist endeavour and if the liberal establishment across Europe and America can withstand the current right-wing onslaught, then it is conceivable that much of the right-wing will fade back to the fringes and the progressive movement of the past few centuries will resume its march onwards and upwards.

Overall I do like the increased contrast and instability Trump brings to our manufactured false world.

I can certainly see the benefits of that, and I agree it is refreshing in a way, but I’m not sure that we as a species have the wisdom or maturity to be able to contain such instability. We are playing with fire.

David, what do you think of my suspicion that enlightenment wisdom would manifest like a peak experience in a human life? Meaning that it cannot hold during a lifetime, that it starts a serious decline or just goes out with a bang. Perhaps you can prove the theory wrong?
Well, I haven’t exactly been doing a great job at this over the past few years. But in general, I see no reason why a person cannot maintain a strong spiritual fire without interruption every day for the rest of his life. It’s a matter of whether he is prepared to continually work at it until it really takes hold.

And the reverse is true. If a spiritual person loses his way and doesn't properly nurture his spiritual fire, then it can go out.

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by jupiviv » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:12 am

Momentous events do tend to occur together don't they? First the Donald gets elected, not assassinated, and ordained as President, then the Dow hits 20000, then you resurrect from the dead...all in less than a month! I hope you remember me. When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master - to paraphrase Darth Vader.
David Quinn wrote:The reason I am writing today is that I have recently come to learn, much to my amazement, that Kevin Solway has given himself entirely over to the Breitbart worldview and endorses Trump’s presidency.
Yes I've noticed on my occasional checking up on his channel that of late he exclusively "likes" videos pertaining to the alt right movement that highlight truths that leftist movements won't even mention like the problems with open immigration and leftist/feminist/SJW insanity. I don't "like" this myself because I would prefer he broadcast his own views on this matter, and because I find the content itself to be repetitive and of very low quality intellectually (let alone philosophically). They're right about the irrationality and corruption of the people they criticise, but such people tend to be the lowest common denominator who make almost everyone else look relatively sane. Critiquing (literally) freaks and lunatics for (literally) fun and profit is definitely not what I expect Kevin Solway to be interested in.

Hmm...perhaps he is only working with what is available? The SJW-Liberal-Neocon vs Conservative-Populist-Reformed Leftist dialogue is the cynosure of a lot of web traffic at the moment. Getting involved in it may well be the best way to put certain ideas out there. Personally I think otherwise. The world of politics and news dissemination at the moment is a whirlwind of chaos, hatred, mistrust, deception and of course delusion, derived from fears about vaguely felt but profoundly feared omens of entropy.

But how did *you* conclude that Kevin Solway has "given himself entirely over" to people with whom he seems to have no real interaction apart from watching and "liking" videos by or about them on Youtube. To whom and in what context did he make that remark about Trump doing a fine job etc.? But I guess Kevin Solway will speak for himself.
Well, while I was away on my break, Kevin became heavily involved in the gamergate affair, which was essentially an on-line culture war between young males and a bunch of feminists and political correctness advocates, who came to be known as “social justice warriors”.
It concerned games superficially but was really the beginning of the backlash against SJW/liberal/feminist insanity, and as such was an important movement. But I do agree that Kevin Solway was heavily involved in it, and for no good reason as far as I was concerned. He could have broadcasted his own views about it rather than wholeheartedly support deluded people who happened to share some of his views.
I realized that behind all the buffoonery, Trump was actually very cunning and malignant.
Lol...seriously? I'm going on record - his legacy will be one of irrelevance, and may God smite me down if it turns out otherwise. Of course, it really depends what you mean by "irrelevance". Trump is absolutely correct about immigration, jobs being outsourced and some other things. But who isn't! These problems were identified by intelligent people years ago. The reason they were not fixed is because, as Trump says, the US government and other western governments are corrupt. But that isn't the only reason - at this point, they *can't* be fixed. Actually, they could never have been fixed, because the people who created them (hint - not Trump) worshiped science and technology without understanding the first thing about them.

Will Trump drain the swamp? He hasn't, judging by his cabinet picks. Will he rein in the FED? No. Will he reduce debt? He'll probably break Obongo's record of increasing it. Will he rejuvenate the economy? No. Will he implement a fascist state? It already existed, and has since people decided to let experts tend to their affairs and corporate marketing and PR do their thinking for them.

The only thing Trump is determined to do is build the Wall because it is the stone that hits two campaign promises - jobs and stopping illegal immigration. It will be as effective at stopping invasions as all of the other famous walls of history.
Everything he has done since has only added weight to this conclusion. There is no doubt in my mind that Trump is deliberately riding roughshod over the US Constitution and methodically trying to shut down all democratic institutions in an attempt to grab absolute power for himself. I know this because it is clear to me that he does not know how to operate in any other way. He has no capacity to govern in a normal, sensible manner. The only thing he knows is to keep sowing chaos, keep taking advantage of the resulting mayhem and keep expanding his power until he can do it no more. And when he succeeds in going all the way and securing absolute power over America, it won’t stop there. He will continue expanding ever outwards.
Oh I'm scared! Come on, how can you say these things and then chastise Kevin for calling the MSM evil liars? By the way, I agree with Trump and Kevin on that, but would add that no news source - alt or mainstream - is trustworthy any more. The MSM's disgustingly biased coverage of the recent US election has removed the MSM's moral high ground over the alt media's "conspiracy theorists". Anyway, is Trump to blame for the drone wars? The suspension of Habeas Corpus? Arbitrary imprisonment and torture in secret prisons? Surely it was Trump who ringed Russia with military bases, missiles and combat formations, sent spies and provocateurs to destabilize Ukraine and launched aerial attacks against Russian clients Syria and Libya?
He is like the Borg from Star Trek, relentlessly consuming norms, conventions, rules, laws, morals, truths, decency, breaking everything down, consuming everything in his path. There is nothing switched on upstairs. There is no hint of any kind of higher life. It is just consumption and moving on to the next target, and nothing more.
The SJW fattie chicks drool over me because I can give them hyperlinks that prove how Trump is a Fuehrer who is making lists and identifying enemies!
This is what we all face now. A lunatic who makes up policy on a whim without bothering to consider facts. Virtually all of Trump’s views and policies thus far either rest on “alternative facts”, or on no facts at all. Whether it be the big beautiful wall, the immigration ban against those seven countries, the investigation into 3 to 5 million illegal voters, the war on climate change policy, linking autism to vaccines, equating Putin’s regime with a normal democracy, attacking the judiciary, attacking the intelligence services, asserting the need to engage in trade wars, and so on ad infinitum - nearly all of it is based on information that is purely fictitious. Who needs facts when you can get by with exploiting the fear and ignorance of your followers?
I'll give you some "alternative facts". Open immigration is a massive problem in Europe and the US, and this is coming from a Hindu Indian resident with many childhood friends who are Muslims. The TPP is a disaster and the loss of American manufacturing jobs is at this point an unsolvable problem. The intelligence services, the judicial system and the media are *wantonly* corrupt. Putin annexed Crimea (historically a Russian province for longer than the existence of the US) in accord with an internationally supervised election over secession. What apart from that justifies calling him a tyrant akin to Hitler?

As for climate change, at this point it is probably irreversible. The far more serious problem which almost nobody wants to talk about is resource depletion. Since 1998, the price of each dollar invested in crude production has continually declined.

BTW, congratulations on emulating the non-"alternative facts" based MSM by not mentioning a single fucking thing about the cunt who more than anything/anyone else helped Trump win just by existing and running against him.

If your goal was to convince me that both you and Kevin Solway are out of touch with the world, then you've succeeded. But I can't blame you, because this isn't your or Kevin's world anymore. It's ours.

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by David Quinn » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:37 am

Hi jupiviv,
Momentous events do tend to occur together don't they? First the Donald gets elected, not assassinated, and ordained as President, then the Dow hits 20000, then you resurrect from the dead...all in less than a month! I hope you remember me. When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master - to paraphrase Darth Vader.
Yep, I remember you. Still as impudent as ever. :)

Yes I've noticed on my occasional checking up on his channel that of late he exclusively "likes" videos pertaining to the alt right movement that highlight truths that leftist movements won't even mention like the problems with open immigration and leftist/feminist/SJW insanity. I don't "like" this myself because I would prefer he broadcast his own views on this matter, and because I find the content itself to be repetitive and of very low quality intellectually (let alone philosophically). They're right about the irrationality and corruption of the people they criticise, but such people tend to be the lowest common denominator who make almost everyone else look relatively sane. Critiquing (literally) freaks and lunatics for (literally) fun and profit is definitely not what I expect Kevin Solway to be interested in.
Agreed.

But how did *you* conclude that Kevin Solway has "given himself entirely over" to people with whom he seems to have no real interaction apart from watching and "liking" videos by or about them on Youtube. To whom and in what context did he make that remark about Trump doing a fine job etc.?
To me, in a series of email conversations, in response to my saying that Trump's presidency was already unfolding as dreadfully and chaotically as I expected.

He has definitely gone full Breitbart. I would quote his comments to me about Obama and Clinton, but Breitbart would probably have to sue me for plagiarism.

DQ: I realized that behind all the buffoonery, Trump was actually very cunning and malignant.

J: Lol...seriously? I'm going on record - his legacy will be one of irrelevance, and may God smite me down if it turns out otherwise.
One of the interesting things about the whole Trump phenomenon is the way in which people continually underestimate him. Just looking at this thread, Eric underestimates him, Diebert underestimates him, and now you’re doing the same. Kevin also underestimates him. People have been underestimating him ever since he started his campaign and Trump has consistently taken full advantage of that. It’s as though people cannot believe what is occurring right in front of their eyes.

Just overnight, I see that Trump has signed executive orders to give police greater powers on the basis of the fiction that crime in America is rising (it isn’t). As with the immigration issue, he is deliberately sowing fear in people’s minds with the illusion that crime is running rampant and thus justifying the need to install another building block in his police state. Just another day in Trump’s glorious march to the Golden Throne.

Trump is absolutely correct about immigration, jobs being outsourced and some other things. But who isn't! These problems were identified by intelligent people years ago. The reason they were not fixed is because, as Trump says, the US government and other western governments are corrupt. But that isn't the only reason - at this point, they *can't* be fixed. Actually, they could never have been fixed, because the people who created them (hint - not Trump) worshiped science and technology without understanding the first thing about them
.
Who says they can’t be fixed? That sounds very fatalistic to me. If people are encouraged to be more rational and mature, then there isn’t much we couldn’t resolve.

Will Trump drain the swamp? He hasn't, judging by his cabinet picks. Will he rein in the FED? No. Will he reduce debt? He'll probably break Obongo's record of increasing it. Will he rejuvenate the economy? No. Will he implement a fascist state? It already existed, and has since people decided to let experts tend to their affairs and corporate marketing and PR do their thinking for them.
I can understand your railing against corporate marketing and PR, but expertise? How does being very knowledgeable about things become a negative trait?

I assume you don't see a doctor anymore, given that he is part of a fascist regime.

DQ: Everything he has done since has only added weight to this conclusion. There is no doubt in my mind that Trump is deliberately riding roughshod over the US Constitution and methodically trying to shut down all democratic institutions in an attempt to grab absolute power for himself. I know this because it is clear to me that he does not know how to operate in any other way. He has no capacity to govern in a normal, sensible manner. The only thing he knows is to keep sowing chaos, keep taking advantage of the resulting mayhem and keep expanding his power until he can do it no more. And when he succeeds in going all the way and securing absolute power over America, it won’t stop there. He will continue expanding ever outwards.

J: Oh I'm scared! Come on, how can you say these things and then chastise Kevin for calling the MSM evil liars?
As I say, my main source of information is my own eyes and Trump’s behaviour, both on camera and in his tweets. He isn't difficult to read. He is an open book.

By the way, I agree with Trump and Kevin on that, but would add that no news source - alt or mainstream - is trustworthy any more. The MSM's disgustingly biased coverage of the recent US election has removed the MSM's moral high ground over the alt media's "conspiracy theorists".
I completely disagree with this. Far from being biased, the mainstream media spent far too much time bending over backwards trying to be unbiased. Instead of recognizing the reality of Trump right before their eyes, they were far more concerned about wanting to be seen to be “fair” to Trump. Thus, for most of the campaign they were asleep at the wheel and did not attack Trump with any great force or skill. It was only at the very end, when everyone began to realize what Trump was really about, that they suddenly panicked and declared war on him. By then it was too late.

BTW, congratulations on emulating the non-"alternative facts" based MSM by not mentioning a single fucking thing about the cunt who more than anything/anyone else helped Trump win just by existing and running against him.
I have no interest in defending Clinton or the Democrats. They were clearly far from perfect. Right now, I just think that Trump needs to be stopped as soon as possible, before he causes too much damage. That is the number one priority. We can deal with the niceties of blaming people afterwards.

If a fire suddenly erupts in your house, you don’t start having a committee meeting about who should be blamed for starting it. No, you just focus on putting it out.

If your goal was to convince me that both you and Kevin Solway are out of touch with the world, then you've succeeded. But I can't blame you, because this isn't your or Kevin's world anymore. It's ours.
So what do you want to see happen?

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Dan Rowden
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by Dan Rowden » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:33 am

Hi folks,

Just stopping by to iterate David's thoughts and thank Eric for a very interesting contribution. This is fairly complex issue because it's not simply about politics or the rise of American neo-fascism in the form of a Trump Presidency, nor how wisdom relates to the mundane and decrepit world of politics, or about Kevin Solway's drift towards apparent support for white, male supremacist paradigms - it's all those things and more.

Should politics concern a thinker of the Infinite? Maybe. Maybe not. It rather depends on their chosen goals. If one of those goals is the survival and promulgation of truth and reason, and indeed science and intellectual curiosity and integrity at its most basic level, then this current political paradigm in the USA matters, because it represents a threat to those things, as does the rise of intersectional feminism and the patently absurd social thinking it has spawned.

The problem here is thinking that one of these things can in any way, shape or form represent an antidote to the other. Milo Yiannopoulos is an MRA, white Christian supremacist who Kevin Solway has decided is some kind of hero because he criticises things that Kevin dislikes.

I share Kev's concerns regarding the rise of intersectional feminism and the SJW mentality it has spawned. It is pretty awful. When I see the effects it's had on American university and college culture I can't help but be a little horrified. When I see the legitimacy afforded - by the 'system' - to Youtube morons like Laci Green and Anita Sarkeesian, I get a little worried. It's bad. End of story. No argument from me on that. I spent a considerable amount of time on Youtube following the gamergate (and associated) culture war. I had to stop because it was so ugly and demented. There were no voices of reason at all.

It was a bunch of toddlers throwing tantrums at each other. Many of those criticising these new intersectional feminists and SJWs were making many legitimate points, because, you know, it's as easy as fuck to do that, but there was so much whiny-arsed, butt-hurt nonsense and unfettered anger that it became quite unsettling. And no-one was offering solutions of any kind, no views on how things could or should be, just whiny-arsed, butt-hurt claims of how moronic the other side is. Petty name-calling, basically (i.e. beyond the legitimate accusations of dishonesty, and in Sarkeesian's case, outright fraud).

You cannot cure a form of insanity with another form of insanity.

For me the key thing here is this apparent perception that Trump and his new regime are somehow going to make things better, that they will do things that will make these nasty feminists go away. I mean, WTAF? The gamergate thing and much of the culture war that has ensued is little more than a fight between nerds. 95% of those who voted for Trump wouldn't even know about it and did not vote for him because of it. Their 'anti-establishment' sentiments are of a vastly different kind, primarily economic, but even on a cultural level, nothing to do with gamergate type matters.

David mentioned Trump's twitter activity. That alone, literally that alone, demonstrates is utter unfitness for the Presidency. It is breathtakingly batshit. His Cabinet is terrifying, at least from the point of view of US citizens. A Charter School rip-off merchant with a lifelong animus for public education is the Education Secretary? Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III is the Attorney General? Jesus is weeping - again.

Hey Jup,

I'm wondering if you could give a couple of brief examples of the 'evil' output of the MSM during and after the campaign. I'd be curious to know what constitutes that from your perspective.

And it isn't necessary in speaking about the ills of Trump to mention Clinton. I don't get that point at all. She is officially irrelevant. Mind you, the DNC totally screwed up in making her their candidate and screwing over Bernie Sanders. I think they vastly underestimated the dislike for her, even among Democrat voters, especially millennials, many of whom declared they would not bother voting at all if she was the Nominee. I mean, what sort of political folly is it to present the electorate with a quintessentially 'establishment' candidate in the face of a vast and rising anti-establishment sentiment, even within their own ranks?

Anyway, that'll do for now. I'm off to see what new non-existent events Conway and Spicer have declared to be real ....

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:17 pm

Hi Dan, well at least Trump brought already two founders back to their creation. Which would confirm my theory that just his brand, his shadow has the power to ignite some energy in people, positive or negative. Like a Jesux Christ, he brings the sword and divides people or makes them embrace alternative theologies?

Jupiviv, although I share some thoughts on Trump with you, it's hard to argue for any of it seeing the latest spat about the tweets from Trump and his harpy Conway both supporting the fashion line of Trump's daughter to the world. No matter the reason (responding to a possible political move to cancel his daughter's contract?) it devalues any other thing these people could say as being just as shallow and opportunist. Or in other words just embracing whatever viewpoint for other reasons than its truth value.

David, it's not like I misunderestimated (oops) Trump, his march to win came as little surprise to me. It's just that I already had an extremely dim view of what happened under Bush/Cheney administration. Or the general course of the Reli-American empire. To the point that anything able to upset or challenge it, without starting a nuclear war, could be only good. It's about the degree of cynicism I suppose. Many people, perhaps including you, seem to view Trump the way like Adam Curtis recently described:
  • For a lot of the people who support Trump — and the new right in Europe — it’s not really nationalism,” he suggested. “It’s a class thing.” He thought again for a moment; that wasn’t quite it. “You know when you’re told to adopt the brace position in an aircraft because you’ve got some turbulence? It’s as if everyone’s in the brace position at the moment, and they don’t dare look out of the window and see the world for what it is. All the people terrified of Trump are in the brace position — you know, as you gulp another whiskey, ‘Oh, my God — are we going to drop down 20,000 feet?’ If you’re in that position and someone starts walking around the aisle, you want them to stop. You’re in the brace position. They’re teasing you. They know you’re frightened. They decided to get up and walk around the plane, and you don’t like it.”
To me the Trump phenomenon looks exactly like that. The reality, the political reality of the human world has already passed the stage of insanity, arriving at inanity. It has become completely unreal in my eyes already quite a while ago. Nothing to do with expertise or reason. These are completely subjected to imaginary ideology (eg "Atlantism" or "American century" or "Self").

Curtis also remarks that Trump may himself be only another form of feedback system, similar to a chat-bot who replies to you by restating your questions in a flattering style. “He’s a hate-bot. You go, ‘I’m angry,’ and he goes, ‘I’m angry, too!’ And nothing changes. This mirroring technique is of course completely feminine and energizes the one looking into the mirror. The Will to Power at work. Trump politics are energy politics. Nothing to do with reason of course unless sounding reasonable would help him in a given situation. This is the conman part you noticed. It's a form of business nihilism, perhaps even ingrained sociopathy as coping mechanism.

But Trump is definitely a realist here in the sense that the world like in the Curtis analogy, has become this scary, detached place where it's not about facts of truth any more. Real, urgent problems are clearly being denied or rarely spoken about at the highest levels. The transatlantic nations are singing themselves into sleep because the end of times is near. But unavoidably so, and just the "Lockean" Western administrative empire leaving us with a smooth ivory tower decline under Obama/Clinton or a bumpy collision with the ugly reality of the state of our nations and its people under Trump. Personally I'm excited by the second option but not for any Breitbart reason. Just that I'd prefer that people start realizing how ugly it had already become way before Trump rather sooner than later. It's interesting to see people accuse Trump of stuff done almost exactly the same by his predecessors. It's' all just exposition to me I guess. Exposition of the fundamental contradiction which have been fuelling the post-WW2 "modern" age.

Why Kevin would be embracing this I can understand if he sees some anti-feminine or "masculine" awakening in the Trump movement. But what he should realize is that this seduction of "angry white males" by a bunch of entrepreneurs who have lived all their life feeding of the energy and support of emotional customers is exactly the thing he should back away from. Trump becoming Woman in yet another form, enlisting his services, yet again!

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:23 pm

Eric Schiedler wrote:As I see it, Trump is a demon that has taken solid form. In mythological stories, the powerful, invincible, dark force in the unknown that is the Enemy often confronts the heroes by taking solid form, and does so often, but not always, in the shape of an evil human, wizard, or humanoid being. But by taking a discrete shape, the once-invincible enemy is weakened. That is a key part of the myth. So too we can see that it is the case with Trump; he is identifiable as a single man with a political office and thus can be defeated; he can fall easily.
While there's something to say for the Trump myth as a form of a society attempting to exorcise evil, somewhat similar to what I'd call exposition, there's another layer to this. What is missing from the idea is the degree of self-awareness of this very thing, the wink you can see. For example the notorious statement of White House central figure Steve Bannon: "Darkness is good. Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That’s power... It only helps us when they (liberals and the media) get it wrong. When they’re blind to who we are and what we’re doing."" and "Fear is a good thing. Fear is going to lead you to take action".

As you can see there's a complete awareness of how they are perceived. And they even encourage it! Bannon realizes very well, and so must Trump, how the establishment looks at them. Bannon reveals that they see themselves as realists and their opposition as living in the clouds which start to evaporate. Everything alien, everything denied and repressed is the very fuel of the daemonic in a human life. That's the function of myth as well as for example horror movies. For Trump and Bannon fear and demonization are only more fuel for change and many things they say and do seem to have in mind that very effect.

The demonization is the result of a blind spot of those people who do not understand what Trump represents: a world-view which is more truthful, in bare essence, than the one many in the West are raised on. Picturing a world of conflict, of competition, of shifting power balances which will need some kind of revived energy in the West to turn the tide of civilisations. The main problem I see with Trumpism is that it manifests as reactionary and ultimately fascist response. A response to rapid changes seen as threatening the fabric of our social existence or tradition. Stopping that by force or by supercharging everything is never going to work. The future will be brutal and confusing. And that has been of all ages. Obama and Clinton represent denial of this reality and Trump flings (twisted) reality in our faces. But neither will be able to change the turning tides. What it will do is divide further what's left of "good old" unity and as such quicken the ending.

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David Quinn
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by David Quinn » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:38 pm

Diebert,
Hi Dan, well at least Trump brought already two founders back to their creation. Which would confirm my theory that just his brand, his shadow has the power to ignite some energy in people, positive or negative. Like a Jesux Christ, he brings the sword and divides people or makes them embrace alternative theologies?
He does have that quality, yes. It seems to derive from his shamelessness. I have never before encountered anyone, anywhere, who is so utterly shameless in his deceitfulness. It is so unrelenting that it becomes a source of energy for him.

David, it's not like I misunderestimated (oops) Trump, his march to win came as little surprise to me. It's just that I already had an extremely dim view of what happened under Bush/Cheney administration. Or the general course of the Reli-American empire. To the point that anything able to upset or challenge it, without starting a nuclear war, could be only good. It's about the degree of cynicism I suppose. Many people, perhaps including you, seem to view Trump the way like Adam Curtis recently described:
  • For a lot of the people who support Trump — and the new right in Europe — it’s not really nationalism,” he suggested. “It’s a class thing.” He thought again for a moment; that wasn’t quite it. “You know when you’re told to adopt the brace position in an aircraft because you’ve got some turbulence? It’s as if everyone’s in the brace position at the moment, and they don’t dare look out of the window and see the world for what it is. All the people terrified of Trump are in the brace position — you know, as you gulp another whiskey, ‘Oh, my God — are we going to drop down 20,000 feet?’ If you’re in that position and someone starts walking around the aisle, you want them to stop. You’re in the brace position. They’re teasing you. They know you’re frightened. They decided to get up and walk around the plane, and you don’t like it.”
To me the Trump phenomenon looks exactly like that.
I don’t know about this. It falsely depicts both sides. Those who fear and oppose Trump aren’t curling up into fetal positions. Many of them are joining resistance groups and engaging in political activism. And it is ludicrous to suggest that Trump supporters are seeing the world for what it is. What a thought! Next we’ll be calling them Buddhas. A lot of them are just malcontents and uneducated simpletons who are reveling in the tears of the snobby elites.

You’re obviously very cynical, Diebert, and don’t hold much hope for the future. But how certain are you, really, that your cynicism actually matches reality? After all, neither you or I really know what is going to happen in the future. So shouldn’t your cynicism simply be described as a choice?

Curtis also remarks that Trump may himself be only another form of feedback system, similar to a chat-bot who replies to you by restating your questions in a flattering style. “He’s a hate-bot. You go, ‘I’m angry,’ and he goes, ‘I’m angry, too!’ And nothing changes. This mirroring technique is of course completely feminine and energizes the one looking into the mirror. The Will to Power at work. Trump politics are energy politics. Nothing to do with reason of course unless sounding reasonable would help him in a given situation. This is the conman part you noticed. It's a form of business nihilism, perhaps even ingrained sociopathy as coping mechanism.
Yes, that is very much a standard strategy from Trump. He is always deflecting back onto his opponents whatever it is that he is accused of. Whenever he is accused of lying, for example, he always responds by accusing everyone else of lying, such as the media. Or last year, when his hard-line immigration proposals led him to be accused of fueling Islamic extremism, he immediately started accusing Obama and Clinton of being the founders of ISIS. He does this sort of thing all the time.

The basic aim of the strategy is to create as much confusion as possible, so as to disarm his opponents and raise himself up in the process. By utilizing a constant bombardment of lies and deflections, he slowly grinds all of his opponents down until everyone is perceived to be lying con-artists, just like he is. When everyone is seen to be a lying con-artist, who can you trust? Who is your friend? Who is your enemy? Who can save us? Enter Donald Trump.

I have no doubt that many of Trump’s followers know that he is a con-man. But they think, “At least he is our con-man”.

While there's something to say for the Trump myth as a form of a society attempting to exorcise evil, somewhat similar to what I'd call exposition, there's another layer to this. What is missing from the idea is the degree of self-awareness of this very thing, the wink you can see. For example the notorious statement of White House central figure Steve Bannon: "Darkness is good. Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That’s power... It only helps us when they (liberals and the media) get it wrong. When they’re blind to who we are and what we’re doing."" and "Fear is a good thing. Fear is going to lead you to take action".

As you can see there's a complete awareness of how they are perceived. And they even encourage it! Bannon realizes very well, and so must Trump, how the establishment looks at them.
Absolutely. They both know exactly what is going on here. They are both expert manipulators of media narratives.

There was an incident back in September where Trump announced a press conference which would supposedly feature a special statement about the birther issue. Trump had, of course, been fanning the conspiracy theory that Obama wasn’t born in the United States for years. So the journalists duly rolled up to the press conference at one of Trump’s hotels, CNN was covering the whole thing live, and they all watched as Trump spent a full half-hour spruiking the fantastic qualities of his hotel. And then right at the end, at the very last minute, he read a quick statement about how Obama was indeed born in the US after all and then promptly walked off stage.

The journalists and CNN were enraged. They felt that Trump had taken them for a ride. It was the trigger that caused the mainstream media to really double down and attack Trump relentlessly for the remaining weeks leading into the election, and this in turn fed into the Breitbart narrative that the media was biased against Trump.

You can only stand back and admire such cunning. The mainstream media were goaded into intensifying their efforts to expose all of Trump’s lies and skulduggery in an effort to bring him down. But thanks to Trump/Bannon’s dark media skills, it only served to make him more popular.

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by jupiviv » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:44 am

David Quinn wrote:
But how did *you* conclude that Kevin Solway has "given himself entirely over" to people with whom he seems to have no real interaction apart from watching and "liking" videos by or about them on Youtube. To whom and in what context did he make that remark about Trump doing a fine job etc.?
To me, in a series of email conversations, in response to my saying that Trump's presidency was already unfolding as dreadfully and chaotically as I expected.
OK. Well, Trump is at the very *least* successfully pretending to be loyal to his supporters/fanbase. Maybe that's what Kevin means by "consistent and reliable".
He has definitely gone full Breitbart. I would quote his comments to me about Obama and Clinton, but Breitbart would probably have to sue me for plagiarism.
Just because Kevin shares the views of Breitbart's authors doesn't mean he is wrong! Besides, the alternative media comprises much more than the Breitbart site.
One of the interesting things about the whole Trump phenomenon is the way in which people continually underestimate him. Just looking at this thread, Eric underestimates him, Diebert underestimates him, and now you’re doing the same. Kevin also underestimates him. People have been underestimating him ever since he started his campaign and Trump has consistently taken full advantage of that. It’s as though people cannot believe what is occurring right in front of their eyes.

Just overnight, I see that Trump has signed executive orders to give police greater powers on the basis of the fiction that crime in America is rising (it isn’t). As with the immigration issue, he is deliberately sowing fear in people’s minds with the illusion that crime is running rampant and thus justifying the need to install another building block in his police state. Just another day in Trump’s glorious march to the Golden Throne.
Like I said, it depends on how one defines "irrelevance". Trump as president is going to preside over events that neither he nor any other president could have changed. The reason for Trump's victory has almost nothing to do with Trump himself.

_https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2016/ ... t-america/

(I'm preceding hyperlinks with an underscore because of the 3 hyperlinks per post limit/rule.)

A word about that article - by way of Brookings' logic, the consumption that takes place in cities is "productive" because the various banks magically output "money" to pay for it.
Trump is absolutely correct about immigration, jobs being outsourced and some other things. But who isn't! These problems were identified by intelligent people years ago. The reason they were not fixed is because, as Trump says, the US government and other western governments are corrupt. But that isn't the only reason - at this point, they *can't* be fixed. Actually, they could never have been fixed, because the people who created them (hint - not Trump) worshiped science and technology without understanding the first thing about them
.
Who says they can’t be fixed? That sounds very fatalistic to me. If people are encouraged to be more rational and mature, then there isn’t much we couldn’t resolve.
It was a very broad statement, referring to the fact that the US (and by extension, global) economy is a vast cost-shifting regime and its ongoing crisis can be boiled down to a shortage of "others" able to bear the burdens of rapidly increased surplus-related costs. When debt = wealth, there is an incentive to take on as much debt as possible, keep what you can for yourself and shift the retirement and servicing burdens onto others.
Will Trump drain the swamp? He hasn't, judging by his cabinet picks. Will he rein in the FED? No. Will he reduce debt? He'll probably break Obongo's record of increasing it. Will he rejuvenate the economy? No. Will he implement a fascist state? It already existed, and has since people decided to let experts tend to their affairs and corporate marketing and PR do their thinking for them.
I can understand your railing against corporate marketing and PR, but expertise? How does being very knowledgeable about things become a negative trait?

I assume you don't see a doctor anymore, given that he is part of a fascist regime.
The experts I was referring to are the ones who believe that economies can print their way out of bankruptcy and that science is like a magic vending machine that can churn out solutions to every iteration of the aforementioned cost-shifting regime wherever or whenever needed. Also the ones who make a living justifying insane policies. Not to mention the experts who are useful per se but choose to prostitute themselves to their patrons.

Unfortunately the issues you have raised are complex and impossible to explore except in broad strokes. You're trying to connect them to Trump and Kevin's apparent adulation of him, and I'm trying to persuade you not to do so.

Doctors offer a crucial service, but precisely for that reason they band together, exaggerate the value and necessity of that service, invent new and unnecessary versions of it and charge exorbitant prices for it.

I'm 25 and the only times I've visited doctors in the past decade or so have all been on behalf of my parents or relatives. My 62 y.o. uncle recently mortgaged his house to pay for a cancer treatment that gives him 4-5 more years of life. If I get cancer and have to do that just to spend the remainder of my life smiling at relatives, I'm going to suicide bomb an abortion clinic.
As I say, my main source of information is my own eyes and Trump’s behaviour, both on camera and in his tweets. He isn't difficult to read. He is an open book.
I agree, and that is why I think you are demonising him due to your own attachments to things (like Kevin's views) which you perceive he is threatening. Trump is an old man who doesn't understand the world (probably never did), much like you or Kevin. Besides that he is brash, outspoken and not very bright. He has neither the energy nor the motivation nor the means to vie for absolute power over the US let alone the world. Trump is doing nothing unprecedented when he issues executive orders.

_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_executive_orders

Trump's wall project is also not unprecedented. See the Secure Fence Act of 2006:

_https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hr6061

It was supported by many Democrats, including those now bemoaning Trump's wall - Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein:

_https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2017/ ... story.html

Slick Willy launched "Operation Gatekeeper" in the 90s:

_https://oig.justice.gov/special/9807/gkp01.htm
I completely disagree with this. Far from being biased, the mainstream media spent far too much time bending over backwards trying to be unbiased. Instead of recognizing the reality of Trump right before their eyes, they were far more concerned about wanting to be seen to be “fair” to Trump. Thus, for most of the campaign they were asleep at the wheel and did not attack Trump with any great force or skill. It was only at the very end, when everyone began to realize what Trump was really about, that they suddenly panicked and declared war on him. By then it was too late.
Lol...please tell me you're joking! The MSM expended virtually *no* coverage on the information regarding Hitlary's email scandal, charity fraud and speeches at private conferences for fees reaching 100000s of dollars, not to mention the twice opened and closed FBI investigations into a presidential candidate. In fact they became the propaganda arm of the Clinton campaign, even torpedoing Bernie Sanders. In any case, see the response to Dan Rowden below for links etc.
If your goal was to convince me that both you and Kevin Solway are out of touch with the world, then you've succeeded. But I can't blame you, because this isn't your or Kevin's world anymore. It's ours.
So what do you want to see happen?
Regarding the Trump phenomenon, it isn't isolated and is evidently enveloping the world. I see it as a reaction of the population to the lies and arrogance of those in high office. Populism in other words. However, lies and delusions that cannot adapt are superseded by those that can, rather than the truth.

In closing, I agree with you about some characteristics of Trump but I think you are ignoring bigger picture. Not two months ago I wrote in the "Trumpism" thread that we have entered the Age of Schism, and it seems your new post demonstrates that observation.
Dan Rowden wrote:I'm wondering if you could give a couple of brief examples of the 'evil' output of the MSM during and after the campaign. I'd be curious to know what constitutes that from your perspective.
All the transgender lesbians turn their heads when I flash, not just my hyperlinks, but my UNDERSCORE PRECEDED hyperlinks!

Wikileaks revealed several dozen reporters from mainstream media outlets coordinated with the Clinton Campaign and attended private parties with their campaign staff:

_http://observer.com/2016/10/latest-wikileaks-releases-boost-case-for-dnc-class-action-lawsuit/
_http://observer.com/2016/10/wikileaks-new-york-times-propped-up-clinton-subverted-sanders/
_http://observer.com/2016/08/wikileaks-reveals-mainstream-medias-coziness-with-clinton/
_http://observer.com/2016/10/rigged-debates-wikileaks-emails-confirm-media-in-clintons-pocket/

The Washington Post Editorial Board called Sanders' campaign "fiction-filled," just days before the Iowa Caucuses:

_https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bernie- ... story.html

The New York Daily News ran editorials before the New York Democratic Primary blaming Bernie Sanders for the Sandy Hook shooting:

_http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/conn- ... -1.2589519

As I'm sure you remember, Trump was initially denied the nomination despite winning most of the primaries. When he complained about it the MSM outlets dismissed him as a whiner:

_http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/13/us/politics/ ... ystem.html
_http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/us/ele ... ne=nyt-per

Etc., etc.
Mind you, the DNC totally screwed up in making her their candidate and screwing over Bernie Sanders.
They didn't screw up. They knew what they were doing and thought they could get away with it, and for all we know they have.

I'm on the same page with the rest of your (i.e. Dan's) post, except the part about Hitlary's irrelevance. Both she and the establishment of which she was/is a part is, in fact, very relevant in a discussion where my beloved Basileus is called "evil" for doing the same things others have done before him!
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Jupiviv, although I share some thoughts on Trump with you, it's hard to argue for any of it seeing the latest spat about the tweets from Trump and his harpy Conway both supporting the fashion line of Trump's daughter to the world. No matter the reason (responding to a possible political move to cancel his daughter's contract?) it devalues any other thing these people could say as being just as shallow and opportunist. Or in other words just embracing whatever viewpoint for other reasons than its truth value.
David is the one calling him an evil genius, not me.

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by jupiviv » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:18 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:The demonization is the result of a blind spot of those people who do not understand what Trump represents: a world-view which is more truthful, in bare essence, than the one many in the West are raised on.
Hit it on the head. The quote of the decade is when Trump replies to the windbag O'Reilly's accusation of Putin with "you think we're so innocent?" To the MSM, and to people like David who refuse to distrust conventional narratives *totally*, it suggests that Trump is unsuited to the rigors of the office of president. He is the first leader of the free world who seems unable/unwilling to realize the difference between "us", the good guys, and "them", the bad guys.

It's really ironic, because the people who are most baffled by the worldview of Trump and his supporters are also firm believers in pushing moral boundaries wherever possible. It's human nature I suppose - as long as someone *else's* moral boundaries are pushed, it's fine.
David Quinn wrote:The journalists and CNN were enraged. They felt that Trump had taken them for a ride. It was the trigger that caused the mainstream media to really double down and attack Trump relentlessly for the remaining weeks leading into the election, and this in turn fed into the Breitbart narrative that the media was biased against Trump.
What are the chances you read this story in an MSM source? The MSM was attacking Trump long before September (see my underscore preceded (TM) nytimes and wapo links). They doubled down near the election because the likelihood he would win could no longer be dismissed.

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by jupiviv » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:13 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:But Trump is definitely a realist here in the sense that the world like in the Curtis analogy, has become this scary, detached place where it's not about facts of truth any more. Real, urgent problems are clearly being denied or rarely spoken about at the highest levels. The transatlantic nations are singing themselves into sleep because the end of times is near. But unavoidably so, and just the "Lockean" Western administrative empire leaving us with a smooth ivory tower decline under Obama/Clinton or a bumpy collision with the ugly reality of the state of our nations and its people under Trump. Personally I'm excited by the second option but not for any Breitbart reason. Just that I'd prefer that people start realizing how ugly it had already become way before Trump rather sooner than later. It's interesting to see people accuse Trump of stuff done almost exactly the same by his predecessors. It's' all just exposition to me I guess. Exposition of the fundamental contradiction which have been fuelling the post-WW2 "modern" age.

Why Kevin would be embracing this I can understand if he sees some anti-feminine or "masculine" awakening in the Trump movement. But what he should realize is that this seduction of "angry white males" by a bunch of entrepreneurs who have lived all their life feeding of the energy and support of emotional customers is exactly the thing he should back away from. Trump becoming Woman in yet another form, enlisting his services, yet again!
Hmm...Trump as Siegfried?

Farewell, glittering
Pomp divine!
End in bliss,
O immortal race!
Norns, rend in sunder
Your rope of runes!
Dusk steal darkly
Over the Gods!
Night of their downfall
Dimly descend!
Now Siegfried's star
Is rising for me;
He is for ever
And for aye,
My wealth, my world,
My all in all:
Love ever radiant,
Laughing death!

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by Eric Schiedler » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:10 am

I am a bit taken aback that my position in my previous post was interpreted to underestimate Trump. I can accept the interpretation as it is the reader that is informed of the message; nevertheless allow me to add the following: Politics has an inherently random element.

A single political event could be a catalyst for Trump’s entire agenda as outlined by David. That is why the situation is so volatile and dangerous. That doesn’t mean that we can’t identify friction in the system that arises in opposition to Trump in the meantime.

The stars and planets move to the rule of Heaven, but lightning is an outlaw.

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:02 am

David Quinn wrote: I have never before encountered anyone, anywhere, who is so utterly shameless in his deceitfulness. It is so unrelenting that it becomes a source of energy for him.
Self-delusion might provide more energy than even fossil fuels. If only we could harvest it!
Even the idea of turning it off will spark wars.
Those who fear and oppose Trump aren’t curling up into fetal positions.
They are in the sense that at least some, if not many of them seem to perceive the world as some kind of craft which can crash just by the whims of a drunk or suicidal pilot. Or with some bizarre wind gush.
And it is ludicrous to suggest that Trump supporters are seeing the world for what it is. What a thought! Next we’ll be calling them Buddhas.
Although I do not speak for Curtis, I do think the reason Trump won this election is because many people, especially inside the Democratic part, have been looking away. Certainly they don't have any idea what's going on, no idea how the world works. And because of a resistance to change, discontent rises and basically screams "we're crashing, lets enter the cockpit and see what's happening". In the end this is perhaps about a feeling as if the house is burning and everybody inside keeps watching TV. And I know you like that metaphor in another context. But my larger point in the political or national context is that the house is always steadily, slowly burning to the ground. That brings me to my next comment.
You’re obviously very cynical, Diebert, and don’t hold much hope for the future. But how certain are you, really, that your cynicism actually matches reality? After all, neither you or I really know what is going to happen in the future. So shouldn’t your cynicism simply be described as a choice?
Absolutely correct. The future is fundamentally unknown and I was not trying to say that I'm cynical about that part. My cynical view has to do with what I can perceive in the present and deriving something from the past and applying causality. But it's more about the philosophical principle which I'm applying, one you know longer and likely better than me. Change is fundamental just as causality. The ignorant, base human position will always one of resistance to that. Trying to erect a more predictable, ongoing situation and after achieving something similar enough, spending all his energy to keep it up and defending it against whatever comes next, from elsewhere, unknown, like the future. It's the way I look at human being and apply it to many aspects of modernity, Americanism: so tragically confused and yet productive, for a while at least. It's not cynicism to say the world is ending or burning, if it's qualified as a constant state were one can wake up to and redefine it or otherwise succumb to fear or fantasies as some kind of coping.
By utilizing a constant bombardment of lies and deflections, he slowly grinds all of his opponents down until everyone is perceived to be lying con-artists, just like he is. When everyone is seen to be a lying con-artist, who can you trust? Who is your friend? Who is your enemy? Who can save us? Enter Donald Trump.
Well, it's a self-defeating, contradicting strategy. A divided house will have to fall. It's possible the Trump group will fall very fast, in terms of their inner structure. In the Netherlands we had similar situations, having a volatile multi-party system and within a year the internal struggle just rips it apart. We'll see! With the US the stakes might be higher but that's the brace position again!
I have no doubt that many of Trump’s followers know that he is a con-man. But they think, “At least he is our con-man”.
Yes, like Trump said about how many killers there are and that we're not innocent. Trivially true but it's like saying that in a world full of murderers, you have to get to your own bunch to survive it all.
But thanks to Trump/Bannon’s dark media skills, it only served to make him more popular.
The energies this little train runs on are quite unstable. It would indeed need a police state to keep it all safely under pressure.

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by David Quinn » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:01 am

jupiviv,
Regarding the Trump phenomenon, it isn't isolated and is evidently enveloping the world. I see it as a reaction of the population to the lies and arrogance of those in high office. Populism in other words. However, lies and delusions that cannot adapt are superseded by those that can, rather than the truth.

I agree with you about some characteristics of Trump but I think you are ignoring bigger picture. Not two months ago I wrote in the "Trumpism" thread that we have entered the Age of Schism, and it seems your new post demonstrates that observation.
I gave that thread a read through and did find it informative and interesting. You and Diebert have obviously explored these issues in far greater detail than I have, and are much more in tune with the realpolitiks of it all. I admire your detailed knowledge of the issue.

I come to the matter from the more general perception that the world, both domestically and internationally, is becoming increasingly fragile. There are numerous potential flash points all over the place, and environmental and economic pressures are increasingly bearing down on them. There is a real tinderbox feel. And now suddenly, with the advent of Trump, voted into office in a fit of pique, a major destabilizing force is being unleashed. Hence, my alarm.

I don’t share the fatalism and cynicism that you and Diebert have. I still like to think that there are enough intelligent, sensible people in the world who are motivated enough to want to take control and steer the ship through these rocky waters.

. . . . we have entered the Age of Schism . . .
Yes, that's undeniable. That nowadays people can individually design their own news services and confine themselves to accessing only the information that reinforces their viewpoints is a major, major issue for the world going forward. The whole idea of a central narrative that everyone more or less subscribes to, regardless of political affiliation, has vanished.

All I can do as someone who values reason, science, facts, etc, is to select those media outlets which also value these things and which present a picture of the world that is consistent with what my own eyes and ears tell me. This is why I am a digital subscriber to the New York Times, for example. I have found that their quality of journalism is very high and that their depiction of Trump tallies with what my own eyes and ears tell me about him. But of course, I read all sorts of other stuff as well. I am open to material from anywhere, left or right, as long as it possesses genuine quality.

What do you consider to be the most reliable news site?

J: But how did *you* conclude that Kevin Solway has "given himself entirely over" to people with whom he seems to have no real interaction apart from watching and "liking" videos by or about them on Youtube. To whom and in what context did he make that remark about Trump doing a fine job etc.?

DQ: To me, in a series of email conversations, in response to my saying that Trump's presidency was already unfolding as dreadfully and chaotically as I expected.

J: OK. Well, Trump is at the very *least* successfully pretending to be loyal to his supporters/fanbase. Maybe that's what Kevin means by "consistent and reliable".
Trump’s power comes primarily from his populist fan base, so he has no choice but to continually throw slabs of red meat their way. So we can expect the whole brouhaha about Islamic extremists, national security, deporting immigrants, high rates of crime, the need to strengthen the military and police forces, etc, to continue unabated. His grip on power is actually very fragile. As soon as his popularity begins to slide, he will be in deep trouble. The establishment, including many Republicans, who all loathe him, will pounce. His downfall, when it happens, will be swift.

I am expecting the Republican party to tear itself apart and implode over the coming months because of their allegiance to Trump. His wild, chaotic behaviour is stretching the bonds to breaking point. They will be at each other’s throats. A schism will open up. Many will defect to the “establishment”; the rest will stand even more firmly behind Trump.

J: Will Trump drain the swamp? He hasn't, judging by his cabinet picks. Will he rein in the FED? No. Will he reduce debt? He'll probably break Obongo's record of increasing it. Will he rejuvenate the economy? No. Will he implement a fascist state? It already existed, and has since people decided to let experts tend to their affairs and corporate marketing and PR do their thinking for them.

DQ: I can understand your railing against corporate marketing and PR, but expertise? How does being very knowledgeable about things become a negative trait?

J: The experts I was referring to are the ones who believe that economies can print their way out of bankruptcy and that science is like a magic vending machine that can churn out solutions to every iteration of the aforementioned cost-shifting regime wherever or whenever needed.
So you weren’t really talking about experts, then, but rather illusionists. That's fine by me.

Unfortunately the issues you have raised are complex and impossible to explore except in broad strokes. You're trying to connect them to Trump and Kevin's apparent adulation of him, and I'm trying to persuade you not to do so.
I understand your point. Even if Trump wasn’t around, the world would still be heading towards a crisis point. That’s fair enough. I can see that. I still think having Trump in charge is a disaster, because his chaotic recklnessness will only serve to bring the crisis point that much closer. That’s if we’re lucky.

DQ: As I say, my main source of information is my own eyes and Trump’s behaviour, both on camera and in his tweets. He isn't difficult to read. He is an open book.

J: I agree, and that is why I think you are demonising him due to your own attachments to things (like Kevin's views) which you perceive he is threatening. Trump is an old man who doesn't understand the world (probably never did), much like you or Kevin. Besides that he is brash, outspoken and not very bright. He has neither the energy nor the motivation nor the means to vie for absolute power over the US let alone the world. Trump is doing nothing unprecedented when he issues executive orders.
That’s true, but not the problem. The problem is the speed in which he is churning out these orders, and the chaos and scandals that he is overwhelming America (and the world) with, and the way he is trying to undermine the media and the court systems, and the utter bullshit that he constantly spews out with his comments and tweets, and the numerous conflicts of interests which already stink of high corruption, and the narrative of fear which he is deliberately sowing into the national psyche, and so on. Taken altogether, what we seeing here is something that goes far beyond the realm of Bush, Reagan and Clinton. So much of what he is doing is “unprecedented”, as numerous political and constitutional experts have already articulated .

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by David Quinn » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:50 pm

jupiviv,
The quote of the decade is when Trump replies to the windbag O'Reilly's accusation of Putin with "you think we're so innocent?" To the MSM, and to people like David who refuse to distrust conventional narratives *totally*, it suggests that Trump is unsuited to the rigors of the office of president. He is the first leader of the free world who seems unable/unwilling to realize the difference between "us", the good guys, and "them", the bad guys.
You act as though anyone who doesn’t completely reject the mainstream media out of hand is automatically deluded. This is a very extreme and nonsensical position to have, and it can only lead to nonsensical conclusions, like the one above.

Haven't you cottoned on to his methods yet? Trump is trying to pretend there is no difference between Putin’s regime and normal US governing because he aims to turn America into a Putin-like state. He is trying to erode people’s resistance to the idea. It is a variation of his standard MO of pretending that everyone is a lying con-man, just like him.

It's really ironic, because the people who are most baffled by the worldview of Trump and his supporters are also firm believers in pushing moral boundaries wherever possible. It's human nature I suppose - as long as someone *else's* moral boundaries are pushed, it's fine.
So we should ditch the whole idea that a leader should be rational, mentally stable, connected to reality, and motivated to rule for the common good? Is that the story? I can’t see how that is a good outcome for anyone. Aside from the psychopath himself and his cronies, of course.

DQ: The journalists and CNN were enraged. They felt that Trump had taken them for a ride. It was the trigger that caused the mainstream media to really double down and attack Trump relentlessly for the remaining weeks leading into the election, and this in turn fed into the Breitbart narrative that the media was biased against Trump.

J: What are the chances you read this story in an MSM source? The MSM was attacking Trump long before September (see my underscore preceded (TM) nytimes and wapo links). They doubled down near the election because the likelihood he would win could no longer be dismissed.
I closely followed the story as it happened, via various media sources. I believe I have a very good idea of what happened. I also remember what it was like before that incident and how things changed afterwards. There is no question in my mind that Trump deliberately engineered the media’s hostility towards him and continues to do so to this very day. It forms a large part of how he keeps his populist base enthralled.

Your concept of the “MSM attacking Trump” is a very distorted one, for it ignores the reality that Trump is indeed a vile, unstable individual who is clearly unfit for office. The MSM reflects this reality in their reporting because it is absolutely impossible not to. It is like trying to report on a major city earthquake without mentioning destruction and casualties. It can't be done.

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by David Quinn » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:01 pm

Eric,
Eric Schiedler wrote:I am a bit taken aback that my position in my previous post was interpreted to underestimate Trump. I can accept the interpretation as it is the reader that is informed of the message; nevertheless allow me to add the following: Politics has an inherently random element.

A single political event could be a catalyst for Trump’s entire agenda as outlined by David. That is why the situation is so volatile and dangerous. That doesn’t mean that we can’t identify friction in the system that arises in opposition to Trump in the meantime.

The stars and planets move to the rule of Heaven, but lightning is an outlaw.
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. Reading your opening post again, I see that I was probably a little harsh. It was just something I sensed - a level of detachment, as though the Trump phenomenon was already a historical curiosity. I shouldn't have said anything, because overall I thought your post was great.

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:10 pm

jupiviv wrote: The quote of the decade is when Trump replies to the windbag O'Reilly's accusation of Putin with "you think we're so innocent?"
When I thought a bit more about the interview, another way to look at this statement came up. It's a trivially true statement which does two things: it morally equivocates all killing by all parties as "the same thing". And it dodges the question, because O'Reilly clearly was aiming at Putin the person and the political targeting of individuals: opposition or journalists, citizens of his own country. While one could argue that firebombing a wedding party or gunning down a complete hospital is murder just as well, the devil lurks in the details. And note Trump doesn't openly say: I don't believe that Putin did order the murder of his opponents.

So when looking again at Trump's statement, it's not that clever at all. It's deflection and vague hand waving. Trump is not the anti-war candidate, he didn't campaign on that at all. He just prefers different wars and blood baths. Something where there's profit as if there are somewhere "profitable wars" to be fought. Trump is smart enough not to speak about peace and instead he just prefers different sticks, different opponents and a lot more spending on lethal technology including nuclear arsenals.

Underneath Trump there is surprisingly little change in the killing department. The significance of his proposed foreign policies lies in the clear insanity of it. And since his policies are not fundamentally different, they reveal as well the insanity of what went before. Trump therefore, to me, represents the bankruptcy of the old system. Not a new system and Trump's value lies exactly in the response he will invoke which will crack open the establishment. Like some agent of chaos.

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:27 pm

David Quinn wrote:I still like to think that there are enough intelligent, sensible people in the world who are motivated enough to want to take control and steer the ship through these rocky waters.
It would be interesting to know who you consider to be intelligent and sensible politicians in the modern world. So instead of loading suspicions on Trump as being a closet fascist, with what can we contrast it? Being a New York Times reader, did you hold Obama administration as a sensible and rational example of US government? Anything in Australia or Europe you liked?

As for Trump's plans, I don't think Putin is an example for him. He seems more interested in a mixture of Kennedy and (Teddy) Roosevelt, with as philosophical underpinning Ayn Rand. It's surprising how many in his cabinet are to some degree Randians.

Note that this can become more and more a political discussion about relative preferences which can often be partially derived from cultural background, upbringing and so on. The sign language we speak when talking about the "world". The most thriving forums on the Internet are the political ones, never-ending mazes of concerns, accusations and stand-offs. Turning way too often into dramatizing hence all the energy poured into it?

As a philosopher I don't believe positive or negative changes ever come out of politics. Actually I see all politics as mainly effect of the philosophies and ideological or cultural currents culminating in movements and expressions, only as end point and not as start of anything. So I don't fear a negative outcome caused by politics but neither do I ever expect anything good from it.

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by jupiviv » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:38 am

David Quinn wrote:I admire your detailed knowledge of the issue.
Thank you, but it's not very detailed at all. In fact, my perspective is identical to how you describe your own:
I come to the matter from the more general perception that the world, both domestically and internationally, is becoming increasingly fragile. There are numerous potential flash points all over the place, and environmental and economic pressures are increasingly bearing down on them. There is a real tinderbox feel. And now suddenly, with the advent of Trump, voted into office in a fit of pique, a major destabilizing force is being unleashed. Hence, my alarm.
Well, except the part about Trump being a major force of evil. But only time will decide who is right. And in my opinion your perspective is one that is informed by conventional media sources that have proven themselves untrustworthy time and again.
I don’t share the fatalism and cynicism that you and Diebert have. I still like to think that there are enough intelligent, sensible people in the world who are motivated enough to want to take control and steer the ship through these rocky waters.
I'm not a fatalist; certainly not on a philosophical level. Fatalism is essentially the intellectualisation of boredom - indifferentism - disconnect from reality. How are my views indicative of those things? Are you equating my refusal to support any side of the nonsensical, fantasy-filled political dialogue taking place the world over, with indifference and giving up on life?
All I can do as someone who values reason, science, facts, etc, is to select those media outlets which also value these things and which present a picture of the world that is consistent with what my own eyes and ears tell me. This is why I am a digital subscriber to the New York Times, for example. I have found that their quality of journalism is very high and that their depiction of Trump tallies with what my own eyes and ears tell me about him. But of course, I read all sorts of other stuff as well. I am open to material from anywhere, left or right, as long as it possesses genuine quality.
The New York Times can (for the time being) afford to employ good writers, but no longer good *journalists*. Their coverage of the US election proves this beyond a doubt (as I have briefly demonstrated above), as does their coverage of issues like the Ukrainian revolution, Putin and the state of the US and global economy.

They are making many legitimate points, because, you know, it's as easy as fuck to do that, but there is so much whiny-arsed, butt-hurt nonsense and unfettered anger that it becomes quite unsettling - to paraphrase Dan Rowden's post.

Their bias against him and his policies adds to rather than palliates the confusion surrounding him.
What do you consider to be the most reliable news site?
Probably none, but I can tell you what I consider to be a sign of dishonesty. The most common response used by lawyers when confronted by a good argument is to generalise it and then argue against it. Whenever a journalist (or anyone) does that, I know they have an agenda. But here are some news/blog sites I read regularly/semi-regularly:

_zerohedge.com/
_peakprosperity.com/
_breitbart.com/
_wsj.com/
_counterpunch.org/
_kunstler.com/

I'm not mentioning the Indian papers for obvious reasons, but a couple of them - the finance-centric ones - are quite reliable. I am not joking about _breitbart.com in case you are wondering. The Wall Street Journal is probably the only large western mainstream newspaper with any integrity left.
You act as though anyone who doesn’t completely reject the mainstream media out of hand is automatically deluded. This is a very extreme and nonsensical position to have, and it can only lead to nonsensical conclusions, like the one above.
I said "distrust" not "reject". It's possible to pay attention to what someone is saying without believing them. They *may* be telling you the truth, but since you distrust them you will also listen to others. That's what I suggest you do instead of obsessing over Trump.
Trump is trying to pretend there is no difference between Putin’s regime and normal US governing because he aims to turn America into a Putin-like state.
The ills of the US government pointed out by Trump aren't lies or pretense. This doesn't mean that Trump is wise and good. Trump is a hypocrite, but so are his opponents. The cleverness of Trump lies not in what he is criticising but in what he *isn't*. And frankly it isn't even that clever because politicians have always criticised only those problems that make them look relevant while ignoring those that don't.

If you want to forecast what Trump's or any other politician's regime will look like, concentrate on the issues he ignores. For example, Trump changed his tune about the stock market being a bubble the moment he assumed office. Indeed, that Trump is taking credit for the stock market bubble proves beyond a doubt how incompetent and stupid he is. When the stock market goes down, everyone will be tearfully remembering the awesome stock market Obongo left behind and which Trump ruined.
So we should ditch the whole idea that a leader should be rational, mentally stable, connected to reality, and motivated to rule for the common good?
Sorry to disappoint you, but there aren't any such leaders at the moment. Pretending that the alternatives to Trump are any better than him isn't a good outcome for anyone. Neither is pretending that the support for Trump and others like him around the globe is anything more than a misguided and all too overdue reaction to the character and deeds of those same alternatives. The political scene in the West has become an echo chamber of "tu quoque", and all those who believe that Trump is the sole or major cause of all the near term problems facing the West are guilty of causing those problems.
Your concept of the “MSM attacking Trump” is a very distorted one, for it ignores the reality that Trump is indeed a vile, unstable individual who is clearly unfit for office.
Your view is distorted. The press' function is to report facts about the world. It is not to slander and pour scorn on those they deem to be vile, unstable individuals, nor praise and express support for those they deem otherwise.

Trump's complaint (*months* before the media stunt you keep mentioning) about being denied the nomination despite winning the primaries was legitimate and the fact itself evinced *organic* corruption within the US political establishment. The New York Times *intentionally* downplayed it, choosing instead to insult him. The newspaper also ignored the huge scandals that were hatching out about Hitlary, choosing instead to print propaganda pieces about how great she was going to be as president or deride Sanders' campaign...

_http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/16/us/politics/ ... .html?_r=0

Even the NY Times' "public editor" (ombudsman) column in 2015 admitted (in their usual, smug, fake-candid, fake-impartial way) that Sanders' campaign was purposefully downplayed because of Hiltlary:

_https://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/has-the-times-dismissed-bernie-sanders/?_r=0
The MSM reflects this reality in their reporting because it is absolutely impossible not to. It is like trying to report on a major city earthquake without mentioning destruction and casualties. It can't be done.
And yet they did precisely that in their coverage of Clinton's campaign.

It baffles me that you of all people can be so obtuse and one-dimensional in your reasoning. In my early ventures into spiritual writings, I read the article/essay you wrote about how Jesus' teachings are at odds with the way Christians think and live. It was a wonderful example of flexible yet purposeful and intense thinking.

Whatever happened to *that* David? Perhaps he will resurrect when we switch to a more philosophical topic, but right now he is a happy halcyon myth. I feel like I'm arguing with a Berkeley protester. It's like Trump has *possessed* you or something. Is Meme Magic real?!

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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by jupiviv » Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:02 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:It's a trivially true statement which does two things: it morally equivocates all killing by all parties as "the same thing".
Well, killing by all governments at any rate. Trump doesn't need to understand the profound connotations of the lines in his script to understand how they will be interpreted by fans and haters alike. In any case, I think there was a certain sad beauty and poignancy to the dead air and O'Reilley's floundering after Trump said that.
He just prefers different wars and blood baths. Something where there's profit as if there are somewhere "profitable wars" to be fought.
Any war is profitable for the military industrial complex. However, Trump is a businessman and therefore knows a saturated market when he sees one! However, it seems he has backed down from the One China thing for the moment.
Underneath Trump there is surprisingly little change in the killing department. The significance of his proposed foreign policies lies in the clear insanity of it. And since his policies are not fundamentally different, they reveal as well the insanity of what went before. Trump therefore, to me, represents the bankruptcy of the old system. Not a new system and Trump's value lies exactly in the response he will invoke which will crack open the establishment. Like some agent of chaos.
I think I mentioned somewhere in the Trumpism thread that Trump's cabinet picks are "edgy insiders". Trump's administration can likewise be described as "edgy" - as in, on the edge of a cliff.


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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Post by Dan Rowden » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:38 am

For those interested in the issue of Putin's agenda, this is a quite interesting take on things:

As in intro to the author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCWCu3fznIw

The [somewhat long] article: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... ame-214589

Also looks like Michael Flynn is in increasingly deep shit over his dealings with Russia.

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