Was Gautama Buddha Enlightened?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Was Gautama Buddha Enlightened?

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Basically, he proclaimed four truths: life is suffering (symptoms), there is a cause of the suffering (truth of causality), there is a way to stop suffering (cure), and there is a path that ends all suffering (treatment plan). The path is known as "the Noble Eightfold Path", and most of Buddhism is an explanation of the path.

The 8-fold path is a recipe. All the ingredients are interconnected. They fall into three main groupings: wisdom, ethics, and concentration. For instance, wisdom teaches us how to have the right view and right intention, but without the necessary concentration to back it up, learning wisdom is useless. The Buddha spent 35 years teaching this path.

Is it necessary that he followed this path to the end? Certainly, a Bodhisattva understands and can teach this plan of salvation without being a Buddha. This is because it is very logical. It's a straightforward map that could have been drawn by someone with insight. You don't have to be an abacus to to solve problems using an abacus.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Was Gautama Buddha Enlightened?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

But where's Gautama now? Right...

Why does the path need to be some actual recipe? Logically the path cannot be worldly in the sense of another method to accomplish some end game because it seems that still would mean it's causally connected to the world in terms of experiences, conditions, goals or phenomena and that would counter the First Noble Truth again! Or is that too simple?

It seems more fitting perhaps as some description of the awakening and liberation itself. Just in case you want a starter, in case you think you need a finger but can it do anything else but drown in contradiction when applied in the way one currently sees fit? What the Buddhist traditions made out of this all seems a lot like the usual religious artefact: the shrine, worship, orders, rituals and various "bodies" of texts. A kind of maze for the puzzler: it's good to walk the maze, to contemplate and start to understand it for what it is.

Anyway, the question arises which teaching you consider stemming from the original Gautama Buddha. A good case can be made that only the texts about "middle way" were original and the system of Noble Truths and Eightfold paths reflect a more evolved theology. This is argued for example in the landmark study The Ideas and Meditative Practices of Early Buddhism (complete PDF) by Tilmann Vetter. Now you don't have to be interested in theories on the formation of ideas but it might be relevant if ones inquiry "demands" an answer to the issue of an actual person having actually followed a path which may or may not be his own direct teaching. Genius always encourages to distil the essential, which can be extremely hard in a pluriform world.
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jupiviv
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Re: Was Gautama Buddha Enlightened?

Post by jupiviv »

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Is it necessary that he followed this path to the end?
If we go by the lives of other wise men, it is likely he knew the destination but did not quite reach it. Humans are too inclined towards unconsciousness and die too soon to be capable of ending such a journey.

The answer also depends upon the actual destination. Every religion, philosophy or ideology that ever gained popularity had an analogous noble path - "to get rid of suffering you must be prudent, temperate and virtuous". And yet, the history of doctrine is inseparable from the history of conflict. This is because while all paths per se are similar, they often reach different destinations. If Gautam's destination was the same as mine, then it doesn't really matter whether he reached it or not. Even a genuine attempt to reach it is a valuable lesson for others.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Was Gautama Buddha Enlightened?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

jupiviv wrote:Every religion, philosophy or ideology that ever gained popularity had an analogous noble path - "to get rid of suffering you must be prudent, temperate and virtuous".
Here one has also a chicken-egg situation: what was earlier, the law to become prudent, temperate and virtuous or the temptation to fall into sin and error? LIke the story of Eden: why planting a tree with a "don't touch" sign on it? In my view understanding the relation between one and the other is the real gold here. The sinner and savior were born together, as twins. Anything at all is born that way, one as means to undo the other.

Suffering is there so you will be inclined to overcome it. Refuse and you will perish. Perish and you will rebirth. Try and you will die.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Was Gautama Buddha Enlightened?

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Diebert wrote:Why does the path need to be some actual recipe? Logically the path cannot be worldly in the sense of another method to accomplish some end game because it seems that still would mean it's causally connected to the world in terms of experiences, conditions, goals or phenomena and that would counter the First Noble Truth again! Or is that too simple?
You express my doubts well. The path to Enlightenment is like trying to count to infinity. There's no clear end game, and I'm pretty sure that for the sake of consistency, Gautama would not have claimed Enlightenment.
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jupiviv
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Re: Was Gautama Buddha Enlightened?

Post by jupiviv »

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:
Diebert wrote:Why does the path need to be some actual recipe? Logically the path cannot be worldly in the sense of another method to accomplish some end game because it seems that still would mean it's causally connected to the world in terms of experiences, conditions, goals or phenomena and that would counter the First Noble Truth again! Or is that too simple?
You express my doubts well. The path to Enlightenment is like trying to count to infinity. There's no clear end game, and I'm pretty sure that for the sake of consistency, Gautama would not have claimed Enlightenment.
Enlightenment itself can be said to be an unending path, in that it cannot lead anywhere else. However, the path *to* enlightenment has a definite end which Gautam and others have described in different ways.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Was Gautama Buddha Enlightened?

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

jupiviv wrote:However, the path *to* enlightenment has a definite end which Gautam and others have described in different ways.
How would you describe the end?
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jupiviv
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Re: Was Gautama Buddha Enlightened?

Post by jupiviv »

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:
jupiviv wrote:However, the path *to* enlightenment has a definite end which Gautam and others have described in different ways.
How would you describe the end?
The cessation of delusions, i.e., incomplete thoughts.
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