God has no history

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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jufa
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God has no history

Post by jufa »

History, God has no history. How can That which is "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow" have a history?

Define to me the history of God. No asking you for the history of what man says of God. Nor what God has and has not done in the living history of man. tell me how God originates a thought in man. How It come to one in dreams. How it moves a person to risk their lives for perfect strangers impulsively. Tell me about God. Can you do that?without your man formed interpreted opinions? If not, then you and I are in the same boat it would appear.

Tell me about the history of God. You understand what I am asking you here? Don't come back with anything a man has written and define that to be of God's history. "God is a Spirit." Tell me about the Spirit of God in me. Don't say it can't be done for: "Call upon me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not."

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: God has no history

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

God, in terms of Father or "Law", is history itself. Or the past as we know and study it, derive order from it.

And if you insist, the spirit reflects the sense of the present or "presence" while any "son" or "Christ" lies always in the future, on or beyond the horizon. There's no way to justify anything without future, without hope. We derive meaning through our mental horizon.

These are no mystical things, everyone is dealing already with them, just naming them differently most of the time.
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Re: God has no history

Post by jufa »

God, in terms of Father or "Law", is history itself. Or the past as we know and study it, derive order from it.
The terms of Father or 'Law' does not reference history, or that which does not exist, future. The terms, presented above represent what is displayed in the human mind which only exist right now. For example, there is no substance of the moment past, nor non-existence future. The very instant of the living moment is the death of what has taken place yesterday by being incorporated into the only reality living man exist within. Such moots the past, and never produce, nor display any moment except that which the moment is, not in what is occurring now, but what is remembered because all of yesterday memories, and future anticipations live only in the point of being now.

But let us go into the logistics of your opposition here, Mankind has mis-read the finger print of life by mis-reading Life's reality. If I may illustrate. Time does not exist. Timeless does not exist. All that is assumed as time and timeless is the course of memory, or projected mind interpretation representing all in man's conscious awareness, barring not imagination. Because these two events are simultaneous taking place in the labor of memory, and birth of right now, the identifying terms given to the subject matter only occur, and occupies the moment of man's living. All the identifying object upon the cords of man's memory, all that is projected and pushed forward into man's conscious and mind from his imaginative thought formation is always alive in the moment of Now.

These term activities, in man's conscious and mind, are kept alive because they must have a point of existence in the man, or they could not exist. That point of existence is the jumping off point of man's walk through time backwards [the past revisited], or his imaginative walk into the timelessness of the future [the future visualized]. The reality of either occurrence begins and end only upon the though of the moment of life being lived now.

Should there be a time past, or future anticipated, the reality of such is in memory or imagination. Neither exist except in what is true and real only in what is true and real only, that is the moment of cogitation of thought continuum which can only occur now.


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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: God has no history

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

jufa wrote:
God, in terms of Father or "Law", is history itself. Or the past as we know and study it, derive order from it.
The terms of Father or 'Law' does not reference history, or that which does not exist, future. The terms, presented above represent what is displayed in the human mind which only exist right now. For example, there is no substance of the moment past, nor non-existence future.
Of course, you have killed God and still are killing your Father, imagining that you have accomplished something good! Crowing about some accomplishment while sitting on the ashes of your Pyhrric victory over time, law and history. But in the end history is still, by definition, what created you and is defining you. Causality does not "exist" like the moment unless only causality would exist.
what is true and real only, that is the moment of cogitation of thought continuum which can only occur now.
For the drunk, the bottle is what's true and real. He will never see it differently until the supply runs out and he needs to sober up.
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Re: God has no history

Post by jufa »

Perhaps I have missed something here. Let's see, the thread say God has no history. Then in reply, Father & Law are given as representative of a history of God/Law without descriptive blueprint as an established truth with nothing but air as a plumline. And in reply to the immediate above, said reply was made a non-issue because using the term Father/Law has no depth, volume, nor height to spread as conversation because of the concrete statement:
"Should there be a time past, or future anticipated, the reality of such is in memory or imagination. Neither exist except in what is true and real only in what is true and real only, that is the moment of cogitation of thought continuum which can only occur now,"
which mooted such an idea as using the word 'term' as a historical reference as God with a history.

Don't know where you come up with killing God, but it is clear you totally ignored the defining statement of the text which began
"Define to me the history of God. No asking you for the history of what man says of God. Nor what God has and has not done in the living history of man."
This is where this text stands. It can go nowhere else off-topic, there is no road to take it there. Let us be gentlemen and deal with the text in a gentlemanly manner. The jumping off point for this conversation begins here: "
Define to me the history of God."
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: God has no history

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

jufa wrote:Perhaps I have missed something here. Let's see, the thread say God has no history.
Yes, exactly like "an established truth with nothing but air as a plumline". It's always hard to look in the mirror.
Then in reply, Father & Law are given as representative of a history of God/Law without descriptive blueprint
That is exactly what it was: a possible description. Instead of talking of god having this or that, or lacking it, it was just suggesting that god "is" that history. You cannot deny things are having history or causes. In the same way one cannot deny god as "father of things". However this is not the same as the more personalized father of the Christian religion.
Neither exist except in what is true and real only in what is true and real only, that is the moment of cogitation of thought continuum which can only occur now,
If it has no history and no future, it cannot be said to exist meaningfully. Such "moment" is really illusionary as they go by with such a speed that it perhaps seems steady to your own perception. It's nonsense to declare them eternal just because you are not able to see their murky beginnings and endings. All cognition stretches out into the history of formation.
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Re: God has no history

Post by Pam Seeback »

You cannot deny things as having history or causes because you are history and causes (karma). Logically then, when you is removed from the equation, history and causes (karma) are removed from the equation.

Logically, "God" causes the delusion of you just as logically, "God" causes the crucifixion (death) of the delusion of you. Both pathways of the god of the delusion of you contain history (karma) with the key difference between the two pathways being:

1) while you is being formed/caused, ignorance of attachment and abiding in form is being formed/caused
2) while the death of you is being formed/caused, wisdom of nonattachment and nonabiding is being formed/caused

The yet-to-be-experienced future exists in both "realms" of you with the difference between the two being:

1) the continuation of you (the continuation of conditioning/suffering)
2) the cessation of you (the cessation of conditioning/suffering)
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Re: God has no history

Post by jufa »

Diebert wrote:
Yes, exactly like "an established truth with nothing but air as a plumline". It's always hard to look in the mirror.
Jibber jabbering does not, in opposition to my asking:

Code: Select all

Define to me the history of God.
nor does asking for an establish truth as a plumline define an establish truth which tell the history of God.

I have asked defining questions, and the crux of these questions are:
Tell me about the history of God. You understand what I am asking you here? Don't come back with anything a man has written and define that to be of God's history. "God is a Spirit." Tell me about the Spirit of God in me


Diebert has attempted to make what is simply, intricate by offsetting this topic with jibberish.

Diebert, all you have to do is tell me the history of God. All that prattling about killing God, and mirror babbling is a horse going in a different direction. Get on topic Diebert.


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Re: God has no history

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:You cannot deny things as having history or causes because you are history and causes (karma). Logically then, when you is removed from the equation, history and causes (karma) are removed from the equation.
You are that equation in the sense that you might end up removing the equation itself. .
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Re: God has no history

Post by jufa »

movingalways, no one has denied
You cannot deny things as having history or causes because you are history and causes (karma).


but that is not the question[s] presented here. To be a good speaker, one has to be a good listener. Listen to the question and then logically
Tell me about the history of God. You understand what I am asking you here? Don't come back with anything a man has written and define that to be of God's history. "God is a Spirit." Tell me about the Spirit of God in me.


All that philosophical logic about cause and effect serve to Diebert. Tell me the history of God is all I ask --- No more, no less. Can't be anymore defining with my question than that.


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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: God has no history

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

jufa wrote:Define to me the history of God.
I offered you the definition of God as being history itself.

History here as causality or creation. The moment you'd start to define things properly, everything falls into place.

You are positioning other people's god as some thing to "have" history which then functions as your personal straw god: easy to knock over! Of course it's clear you're trying to posit god as some unchanging present moment "spirity" thing but that's just a way to avoid reasoning about it. Even your concept of that spiritual, never-changing, constant god has a history: your thought and experiences have history. You cannot escape it but you're free to deny it of course.

Causality is real, Julius -- it's your Father, Luke! But you rather declare him dead and unnecessary. It's your right to rebel.
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Re: God has no history

Post by Pam Seeback »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
movingalways wrote:You cannot deny things as having history or causes because you are history and causes (karma). Logically then, when you is removed from the equation, history and causes (karma) are removed from the equation.
You are that equation in the sense that you might end up removing the equation itself. .
And? So?
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Re: God has no history

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
movingalways wrote:You cannot deny things as having history or causes because you are history and causes (karma). Logically then, when you is removed from the equation, history and causes (karma) are removed from the equation.
You are that equation in the sense that you might end up removing the equation itself. .
And? So?
So you are not removing anything from the equation at all. You are finding the impossibility of that particular notion unless you're finding there was a superfluous factor at both sides of the equation. Like writing 2A=2A instead of A=A?
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Re: God has no history

Post by Pam Seeback »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
movingalways wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
movingalways wrote:You cannot deny things as having history or causes because you are history and causes (karma). Logically then, when you is removed from the equation, history and causes (karma) are removed from the equation.
You are that equation in the sense that you might end up removing the equation itself. .
And? So?
So you are not removing anything from the equation at all. You are finding the impossibility of that particular notion unless you're finding there was a superfluous factor at both sides of the equation. Like writing 2A=2A instead of A=A?
True. In actuality there is no removal "from" because in actuality, "you" never existed.
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Re: God has no history

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Diebert wrote:
I offered you the definition of God as being history itself.

History here as causality or creation. The moment you'd start to define things properly, everything falls into place.

You are positioning other people's god as some thing to "have" history which then functions as your personal straw god: easy to knock over! Of course it's clear you're trying to posit god as some unchanging present moment "spirity" thing but that's just a way to avoid reasoning about it. Even your concept of that spiritual, never-changing, constant god has a history: your thought and experiences have history. You cannot escape it but you're free to deny it of course.

Causality is real, Julius -- it's your Father, Luke! But you rather declare him dead and unnecessary. It's your right to rebel.
Is there something wrong with people understanding? My position is asking one to TELL ME THE HISTORY OF GOD, not define God in term of history, when history is still occurring, and does not present who, what, where, why, and when of God's causation.

Any man can define their history by events of memories, and images. But no one can tell the history, at least not in this thread, of God, because God is the only entity [for lack of a better word] who can say I AM. and put a period behind it which shows no cause nor effect of ITSELF except I AM.

To make this easier for you Diebert, give me the history of God's memory and image, and reasoning which prompted creation.

You have also Diebert, attempted to institute the falseness of
You are positioning other people's god as some thing to "have" history which then functions as your personal straw god: easy to knock over!
, which is absurd based on my saying to you, then asking:
"God is a Spirit." Tell me about the Spirit of God in me.


Knock over God is a Spirit, and is Its Spirit in me.

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Re: God has no history

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Diebert: History here as causality or creation. The moment you'd start to define things properly, everything falls into place.
Let's define things properly (as per right view):

The causality or creation that is called historical is founded on the belief that one can find THE cause of something (the beginning point), and in doing so, accurately identify ITS effects (the ending point(s)). Of course this belief is shattered when one realizes that in order to discover the original cause of something one would have to literally see the history of every cause and every effect since "the beginning of time", or put in terms of the subject matter of this thread, see the omniscient and omnipresent "timeline" of God. Only a fool would lay claim to knowing such a thing.

Diebert, if I recall your POV correctly, you see no end to the restlessness of spirit. This explains your view of history (seeking causes) as being the "way" of god. If I am accurately interpreting your view of god, are you not putting god (as consciousness) squarely in the realm of hungry ghost?
jufa: But no one can tell the history, at least not in this thread, of God, because God is the only entity [for lack of a better word] who can say I AM. and put a period behind it which shows no cause nor effect of ITSELF except I AM.
As reasoned above, no one can tell the moment by moment history of God. Instead, consciousness "makes order" by way of reasoning a cause as if it is an actual or literal beginning. The question as I see it is: do we, as consciousness, continue the game of "making order" or do we, as consciousness, stop the game of "making order?" And if we choose to stop the game of "making order", how do we accomplish this without participating in the game of "making order?" The answer of course is that we can't. What must happen is that one invents the cause of ignorance as if it is true, and then because it is not true, one let's go of the invention. In other words one goes through the mind to get beyond the mind.

I AM (and I AM THAT I AM) is the way God appeared to Moses, the principle of the illusion of self consciousness. In truth, there is no "I" in the totality of the Spirit of God which is why in the more enlightened New Testament the metaphor used to "mean God" is the nonpersonal metaphor of "the law of the Spirit of life." As is the case for most of humanity today, Moses was not yet ready to let go of the dualistic (deluded/illusory) concept of cause-seeking self.
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Re: God has no history

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movingalways states:
As reasoned above, no one can tell the moment by moment history of God. Instead, consciousness "makes order" by way of reasoning a cause as if it is an actual or literal beginning. The question as I see it is: do we, as consciousness, continue the game of "making order" or do we, as consciousness, stop the game of "making order?" And if we choose to stop the game of "making order", how do we accomplish this without participating in the game of "making order?" The answer of course is that we can't. What must happen is that one invents the cause of ignorance as if it is true, and then because it is not true, one let's go of the invention. In other words one goes through the mind to get beyond the mind.

I AM (and I AM THAT I AM) is the way God appeared to Moses, the principle of the illusion of self consciousness. In truth, there is no "I" in the totality of the Spirit of God which is why in the more enlightened New Testament the metaphor used to "mean God" is the nonpersonal metaphor of "the law of the Spirit of life." As is the case for most of humanity today, Moses was not yet ready to let go of the dualistic (deluded/illusory) concept of cause-seeking self
Let us 1st admit the topic is as plain as can be. And 2nd should consciousness be used synonymous as God, then consciousness' history must be addressed in the same manner as a defining agent, by the telling of its history.
History, God has no history. How can That which is "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow" have a history?

Now the question has been squared danced around, in the reply to my last post by the statement
As reasoned above, no one can tell the moment by moment history of God. Instead, consciousness "makes order" by way of reasoning a cause as if it is an actual or literal beginning. The question as I see it is: do we, as consciousness, continue the game of "making order" or do we, as consciousness, stop the game of "making order?
The thing about movingalwlays latter reply to me is she admits - see bold wording immediately above - but then attempts to apply human reasons, via consciousness, and institutes what she calls consciousness "makes order", but doesn't informs us what authority consciousness derives the ability to "makes order", nor what is the order it makes, and why such an order is needed. She give no history of neither consciousness, nor what it is which needs to be "makes order" And out of all of what movingalways states, she does not answer the question us
How can That which is "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow" have a history?
Not asking for a dog chasing its tail musing, nor anything about consciousness. Just asking for a plain and simply rendition of the history of God. So movingalways, going to ask you to tell me the beginning history of God who is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, or that is to say, the history of that which changes not?

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Re: God has no history

Post by Pam Seeback »

Letting God be, peace out, Pam.
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Re: God has no history

Post by Leyla Shen »

Sorry, I'm not feeling the power God here, you false disciples!
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Re: God has no history

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Leyla, We have no message to share, even if we do believe we are trying to save the world and its souls, Blah, Blah Blah. Enjoy the Game, its all we have.

The avenue people take, the attitude they bring to the table when someone oppose their views is ego conformity. The food placed upon the table to digest or reject, should tell us never ride the coat tail of those of the past nor present. It should tell us, for discovery sake, we should be dedicated to what we express and acknowledge of our experience, not the 'they say syndrome'. And in these telling , we should realize they are our fragmented situations, which conditions of interpretations, are circumstanced only by their teeny weeny bit of information.

What experience we bring to the table is no different than what anyone else bring.. What is different concerning our presentation is our defiance of conformity; of fitting our self into a mold of standards which signifies there is more than One Life, One Power, One initiative, One Substance, One Essence, when the reality of any concept of any individual, and their conscious awareness of their living, is totally, and I repeat, totally dependent on upon their entrance into the realm of cognition on this level because of LIFE.

Men defy that which is undeniable. And that is the power of life which made them living souls. And in this defiance, they say they are the cause, ability, and effect of their lives because of their interpretations, and hypothesizing on that which they do not know.

Continue reading @ http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com/topic/874#.VnlnlfkrLIU

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Re: God has no history

Post by Leyla Shen »

Well, if you're not going to take yourself and your thinking seriously I don't see why you think anyone who takes their own thinking seriously will bother with you.

Ego is a human conception, thought up by thinking men, not an all-encompassing absolute truth. What is your point? Everyone is wise? Wisdom is egoism? All opinions are equal? Nobody is better than anyone else at anything?

Yet, we all need you to keep pointing it out?

What?
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Re: God has no history

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What makes you think you can determine who takes, or do not take themselves seriously? And what does human ego and concepts have to do with this topic? So, being you need me to point out my point, let me do just that. My point is asking you to tell me the history of God, no more, no less. You are in the wrong thread to present anything about the human ego. Now, there, do you get my point. Allow me to simplify it for you. Not asking for a dog chasing its tail musing, nor anything about my seriousness, nor human ego and concepts. Just asking for a plain and simply rendition of the history of God. So tell me the beginning history of God who is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, or that is to say, the history of that which changes not?

Your philosophical and psychological deductions are out of place in this thread, and you should seriously consider what you have presented here is out of order, and place your meandering in it proper venue while you are in-between your suicides.

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Re: God has no history

Post by Leyla Shen »

Oh, I get it now! God's history is the history of eternal inconsistency.
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Re: God has no history

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Leyla Shen wrote:Oh, I get it now! God's history is the history of eternal inconsistency.
INCONSISTENCY? Of what? Demonstrate. Please don't give any humanism inconsistency, for as your statement above, it doesn't answer the question I ask you to answer. Give it to me, if you can. I say you don't have it. Demonstration will shut me down.

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Re: God has no history

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Jufa shouts again: "TELL ME THE HISTORY OF GOD"

But don't you see you are first defining God for everyone? You are not interested in discussions but in preaching and making assertions about god being the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. For which you don't have proof. For all we know she changes every second without letting you know.

No wonder no sane discussion comes out of this, yet again. It's only a power trip and self-promotion. This thread is now history.
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