Squawk!

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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crow
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Squawk!

Post by crow »

I am a crow. I do not think as humans do. I am not an intellectual. Therefore, my genius is natural and no big deal.
Enlightenment - of the spiritual kind (is there any other?) - is nothing new to me, and so, although I do not think, I may be of some service here.

From the little I've read, so far, it would seem that 'reason', 'logic', and 'intellectualism' are regularly confused with enlightenment.
Maybe that's as good as it gets for humans, but it is far from what enlightenment is.
State beyond state. Void beyond mind. Where all things originate, and all things return.
Crows know these little things.
Intelligent, they are not.

I bid myself welcome, and hope not to be shot for my trouble. But even if I am, I do not care.
"Hello" (:>
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Squawk!

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

It seems what you've got is beginners mind. When you say things like
crow wrote:From the little I've read, so far, it would seem that 'reason', 'logic', and 'intellectualism' are regularly confused with enlightenment.
Maybe that's as good as it gets for humans, but it is far from what enlightenment is.
State beyond state. Void beyond mind. Where all things originate, and all things return.
It appears that you're caught up in the powerful experiences, of emptiness, of the ''inner'', and so on. We've all had those, they aren't special. Delusional Christians praying to god can have those experiences, and so can a teenager smoking weed. Don't confuse the experiences of emptiness, and the various realizations you might have, for enlightenment. Enlightenment goes hand in hand with wisdom, and there has never been any kind of enlightenment without logic and reason. (Though the words have obviously been given a bad name almost everywhere you look.)

What you have is beginners mind, and you definitely do think, stoopid. You read the tao te ching or something like it, bravo, I'm clapping for you.
crow
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Re: Squawk!

Post by crow »

A fine welcome. One I won't be bothering with. Happy headaches :)
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Squawk!

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

People are truly hopeless. (That goes for crow-people too)
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Squawk!

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Yeah, why make it hard for your self, crow? Why giving your self a head ache?

Your post makes a lot of claims using some reason, comparisons, criticism and reflection. Natural or simple, no matter, it's structure, has a point. Then you turn around and derail what you brought to the table. Are you afraid to move on, too tired perhaps? These kind of needless, woolly contradictions are called around here: emotional blinders, most often various attachments to petty love interests. All very human though.

Welcome anyway. But please elaborate. Emptiness and void -- all a given. And crows appear to be one of the few animals showing some human like intelligence, after all. Many experiments show recognition, language, some basic conceptualization, game play and perhaps all part of the social function they crave..."Crow".

Any aim you have by joining the discussion here? Teach, free, make the world better?
crow
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Re: Squawk!

Post by crow »

You fellows are too bright. See how it spoils all your interactions?
The too-sharp blade is easily dulled.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Squawk!

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

It's absolutely incredible how people can convince themselves so wholeheartedly that they have some special state which requires no intelligence, thinking, logic, or reason, then go on to claim a bunch of things using thinking and logic, for example about no self, and knowledge that we've all already read here probably a hundred times. Crow you're saying we are spoiling the interaction when you're just plain ignoring our responses. (ignorance)

The worst part is, that when you're eventually ignored as a self-righteous (and self-proclaimed idiot), you'll say "they're all just too bright! You have to be dull. I read it in the tao te ching!" and continue on to believe the experiences of emptiness and dropping knowledge are reserved for you.

So you would have responded to me if I pretended to write like a simplistic poet right?

The crow is black like the shit of bull.
His pond is a reflection of his dull soul.
He is like a child, intelligence is not for him.

You have what is called beginners mind. Some of us were exactly where you are now, years ago. A lot of what you're saying are insights many of us would agree with, and I do agree with some of them to a degree, they are just over simplified and not very well thought out. Regurgitated from things you've heard. (Since you're literally quoting texts and pretending it's your own writing)
Last edited by SeekerOfWisdom on Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ardy
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Re: Squawk!

Post by ardy »

crow wrote:A fine welcome. One I won't be bothering with. Happy headaches :)
Crow your right you don't have to be bothered about this and I am sure you won't. Too much (intellectual) weights, not enough (natural) speed with some posters here.

Still, when it is weighed up, it is a good thing to be questioned about yourself from time to time.
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ardy
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Re: Squawk!

Post by ardy »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote: The process goes like this:
Person has powerful experiences.
Person believes the powerful experiences were special or exclusive to himself.
Person defends them, declares them, clings to them, and creates very thick layers.
We 'attack' that person until he eventually drops those layers, and then continue to 'attack' him.

You're in a bad case of it, lots of layers. Will probably take you years to drop them, if ever.
SoW: I think your work in this area has involved much thinking and arguing and via this method you have gained what? Nothing that is obvious in your posts. I have never seen you mention anything about meditation or even introspection. Your claims of being years beyond certain layers are laughable, if you were not so serious about the claim.

My reply to your process goes like this:

SoW's Ego accepts 'I am brighter than others'.
Sow thinks, 'I do not need to follow any discipline used by enlightened men of the past'.
Sow thinks any claims of understanding are bullshit.
SoW attacks anything contrary to his ego view.
SoW feels superior to those who appear simple to him.

Sow has too much to say and too little to offer.
crow
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Re: Squawk!

Post by crow »

Love it Ardy :)
These clever chaps are the bane of all forums. Except mine.
Seeker: why call yourself that? What do you seek other than the belittlement of others for your imaginary gain?
There's hardly likely to be any wisdom in that.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Squawk!

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

I was recently informed of a hide post feature so I can't see ardy or beingof1's posts anymore.

From what I can see of your reply crow it seems that ardy took your 'side' in some sense, which is no surprise, since ardy is the kind of guy to defend crazy people (beingof1 who speaks to walls, literally, which is why they are both hidden) and yourself (not sure which category you fall under yet).
crow wrote:What do you seek other than the belittlement of others for your imaginary gain?
I seek for you to apply yourself a little more, use the reason you keep saying you don't use, use the thoughts you keep saying you don't think. Surely you can see the delusion there. All I have to gain is, well a lot, it would be difficult to list all the benefits. What I know is that there's nothing to be gained from the ignorant, at least nothing one couldn't gain without having to speak to them. Instead I'd hope you would drop your ridiculous self deception that you don't think, and there would be a little less hypocrisy and stupidity, and you'd be a little closer to truth. If you went all the way, that for me would be a very real gain.

That you "love" ardy's reply no doubt has created only one more barrier for you: The extra layer of defence which comes from other people agreeing with you. The fact is that, just below, you outright ignored the forum moderator's reply and simply said "You fellows are too bright, it spoils your interactions", despite that it was you spoiling the interaction by refusing to have one, so chances are you'll be removed from the forum soon enough if you refuse to follow the basic tenants of a conversation. On the other hand, if you make a change, you'll no doubt learn a lot.
crow
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Re: Squawk!

Post by crow »

Not interested, SoW. Even a bit. I've seen far too many of you over the years and years.
Please do ignore me; I have nothing for you. And, unlike you, I don't pretend to care about the welfare of the people I desperately seek to wreck.
Because I wreck nobody, unless in physical jeopardy.

I know what you don't. Ardy seems to, as well. Such a scenario is intolerable to such as you, and I can see why that would be so.
Hit that ignore button. It's really all you can do.

Meanwhile: best wishes, dear chap. It's been fun.
crow
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Re: Squawk!

Post by crow »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote: Any aim you have by joining the discussion here? Teach, free, make the world better?


I scour forums with misleading names to find the few others who have also been misled.
It is gratifying to connect with those few who have made something of the journey I have made.
Rarely does this bear fruit, but sometimes it can.

No, none of the things you mentioned motivate me. The world is already perfect. It's only the world of humans that isn't. And there's nothing to be done about that.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Squawk!

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

crow wrote: I've seen far too many of you over the years and years.
Really, I've barely written anything to you, nor have I said anything about the topic of enlightenment. How on earth would you know? Are you alsoa seer now? It seems that because I deem your denial of thinking as ignorance, I'm just another nay-sayer for you to disregard so that you can avoid having to explain yourself. Seriously, I'm truly wondering, how on earth do you truly believe that you don't think? What does that even mean?

Seen far too many of "me" over the years, bit of a blanket statement, don't you think?
crow wrote:desperately seek to wreck
If all I'm doing is writing, then a person can only 'wreck' themselves. If you want to believe that I'm trying to 'wreck' you, then keep doing that.
crow wrote:pretend to care about the welfare of the people
I definitely care about the welfare of all the people I converse with, to some degree, since their welfare is my welfare, and welfare is in wisdom. If they are wise, then that benefits me.

I'll ask you a very simple question: How do you know whether or not others have had the same insights as you? And why do you believe they are exclusive to you, in this situation?
crow
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Re: Squawk!

Post by crow »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote: I'll ask you a very simple question: How do you know whether or not others have had the same insights as you? And why do you believe they are exclusive to you, in this situation?
I don't write about mere insights. I write of experiences that almost nobody else writes of, because very, very few have ever had them.
Insights are useful, sometimes, as stepping-stones to results. But without the end result, what use are they?
Every moment of my life, every realization, every revelation, every experience, is exclusive to me.
Others have things exclusive to them.
None share identical lives.

I believe in nothing. Nothing at all. I don't need to. I know what I know, and what I know is more than enough for me. Why would anyone need anything more?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Squawk!

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

crow wrote:I believe in nothing. Nothing at all.
Not believing in the million malleable opinions is a good trait, but only with good reason, and there should always be clarity involved, not blanket statements like this one. But you're deceiving yourself, since you do believe in a few things. You believe in the vast universe that you say you're one with, you believe that you're similar to a crow, you believe you don't think, you believe enlightenment is the experience of no-mind and has nothing to do with logic, you believe you are enlightened, and you believe there is the void from which all things originate and return to.

These are all quotes from you, so you see, you do believe in things. You just don't believe in the wisdom of admitting your mistakes it seems!

Until you're able to do that, good luck to you.
crow
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Re: Squawk!

Post by crow »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote: These are all quotes from you, so you see, you do believe in things. You just don't believe in the wisdom of admitting your mistakes it seems!

Until you're able to do that, good luck to you.
Indeed, all I've said is all I've said.
It can not be helped, nor changed, that you are incapable of understanding what has been said.
Like the billion clones of yourself, and you of them, you say the same things, for the same reasons, with the same results.
Mind gets you nowhere useful, as you yourself illustrate so adeptly.
It only makes you unpleasant, as well as unknowing.

I need no luck, thank you. I don't need anything.
Morse
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Re: Squawk!

Post by Morse »

crow wrote:A fine welcome. One I won't be bothering with. Happy headaches :)
It might be good to read your own opening post again. To me you arrive criticizing participants in a general way and in a condescending manner. When this elicits a judgment in response to your judgments, you find this unwelcoming. If you arrive at a party and judge all the guests, you should not be surprised if some judge you in return. An enlightened being, especially one who says he or she is not an intellectual, would know this. I say especially a non-intellectual because it would take some real mental gymnastics to not realize that judgment will not elicit judgment. And note: I think it can be fine to judge and generalize. I am not saying you should refrain from that behavior. But if you engage in it as your hello, you can expect it to come back at you, just as running into someone will not just give them an experience of an impact.
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amerika
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Re: Squawk!

Post by amerika »

I have known crow for several years and, while he expresses himself in a unique way that is initially foreign to me, I think he makes some very good points.

1. Absolute Reality exists and can be perceived through meditation (of sorts).
2. The intellect -- the calculating, self-based mind -- inhibits this process.
3. Belief in nothing => only accepting that which is part of Reality.
4. Divisions between metaphysical and physical are not especially helpful.

This is my translation of his words, and he has not approved or disapproved of it, mainly because he has not seen it.

But, I think it's worth giving him a chance. Hopefully you do not mind doing the same for me. I agree with most of the above but have a different definition of "intellect."
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Squawk!

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

What do you mean "giving him a chance"? Crow's not at this forum any more mainly because of trying too hard with childish posturing and obsessing.

It certainly doesn't need a new member to translate the rambling and advocate it as something anyone "should consider". Actually nobody should need that service from anybody. It would betray a young unformed, still dependent mind. You stand on your own two feet, so prove you're capable of some stimulating conversation and nobody would stop you, even if you were just the clipped crow herself. It wouldn't matter, in the end it's content and depth which are the measuring sticks. Only when that doesn't seem to be there (but who dares to judge) other factors become important.
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amerika
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Re: Squawk!

Post by amerika »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:What do you mean "giving him a chance"?
I'm dropping the rest of your message, since without understanding the above -- which may be colloquial -- my message would make no sense.

By giving him a chance, I mean: take some time to understand where crow is coming from, before assuming that vocabulary troubles and his odd approach alone should doom the content.

If you don't mind a rock 'n' roll metaphor, you won't know if an album is good if you stop listening just because the production is bad. And some of the best albums take time to grow on you.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Squawk!

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

amerika wrote:By giving him a chance, I mean: take some time to understand where crow is coming from, before assuming that vocabulary troubles and his odd approach alone should doom the content.
Odd approach? It seemed all pretty mundane and boring to me. Thoughts hardly examined with glaring errors as a result. The only thing I can advice is to take as well a lot of time to understand where some others on this forum are coming from or where they are talking about.

It's not a good sign though that you even try to defend a poster everyone here already forgot about as many come and go. Focus on your own efforts! The only possible motive I see for you is that you (Crow) somehow came back to explain yourself because of some obsession. If you really want to stay it's better to be open and straight about it. You cannot start philosophy if you cannot be truthful even about the simple things, to your self and others.
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amerika
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Re: Squawk!

Post by amerika »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
amerika wrote:The only thing I can advice is to take as well a lot of time to understand where some others on this forum are coming from or where they are talking about.
Yes, but that's not logical.

I've been using forums for 30+ years and this is a human trope that means "respect the extant culture." That is usually designed to flatter the participants.

My point is that crow needs a translator, and then you can see what he has to say.
Diebert van Rhijn wrote: It's not a good sign though that you even try to defend a poster everyone here already forgot about as many come and go. Focus on your own efforts! The only possible motive I see for you is that you (Crow) somehow came back to explain yourself because of some obsession. If you really want to stay it's better to be open and straight about it. You cannot start philosophy if you cannot be truthful even about the simple things, to your self and others.
This looks like another trope to me. My record stands before you, if you want to check it out.
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