Will to Meaning

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Pam Seeback
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Will to Meaning

Post by Pam Seeback »

What I propose to be explored is that consciousness of existence and reason for existence and meaning of existence are all one and the same movement of spirit and that this movement of spirit is a synthesis of both of the male drive toward absoluteness and the female drive toward relatedness. In other words, while I am free and distinct from and of your world of thought, I am also a slave to our relatedness by virtue of our shared existence.

The title of this thread is obviously a reference to both Schopenhauer's “will to live” and Nietzsche's “will to power”, and because Nietzsche's philosophy of will came after (is an extension of) Schopenhauer's, I include only a passage from his "Beyond Good and Evil.” A second reason, but no less important for including the singular reference to Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil" is that the living philosophy of Will to Meaning, like the living philosophy of Will to Power is one that exists beyond the human realm of dividing existence or God into two separate things or wills.

I also ask the reader to consider that although Nietzsche declares that the world (you and I) are nothing more than the will to power and nothing besides, that in truth, hidden within his very own philosophy is the "higher" metaphysic of the will to meaning. I also ask that the reader consider that Nietzsche's eventual collapse into mental illness at the sight of a horse being beaten was a manifestation of this ignorance and that the legacy of this failure to see in his own philosophy, the will to meaning (or perhaps he saw, but couldn't express) is the legacy now of the philosophers who follow him.
from "Beyond Good and Evil":

"And do you know what “the world” is to me? Shall I show it to you in my mirror? This world: a monster of energy, without beginning, without end; a firm, iron magnitude of force that does not grow bigger or smaller, that does not expend itself but only transforms itself; as a whole, of unalterable size, a household without expenses or losses, but likewise without increase or income; enclosed by “nothingness” as by a boundary; not something blurry or wasted, not something endlessly extended, but set in a definite space as a definite force, and not a space that might be “empty” here or there, but rather as force throughout, as a play of forces and waves of forces, at the same time one and many, increasing here and at the same time decreasing there; a sea of forces flowing and rushing together, eternally changing, eternally flooding back, with tremendous years of recurrence, with an ebb and a flood of its forms; out of the simplest forms striving toward the most complex, out of the stillest, most rigid, coldest forms striving toward the hottest, most turbulent, most self-contradictory, and then again returning home to the simple out of this abundance, out of the play of contradictions back to the joy of concord, still affirming itself in this uniformity of its courses and its years, blessing itself as that which must return eternally, as a becoming that knows no satiety, no disgust, no weariness: this, my Dionysian world of the eternally self-creating, the eternally self-destroying, this mystery world of the twofold voluptuous delight, my “beyond good and evil,” without goal, unless the joy of the circle is itself a goal; without will, unless a ring feels good will toward itself— do you want a name for this world? A solution for all of its riddles? A light for you, too, you best-concealed, strongest, most intrepid, most midnightly men?— This world is the will to power—and nothing besides! And you yourselves are also this will to power—and nothing besides!”
Bobo
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Re: Will to Meaning

Post by Bobo »

The literature says that he had a brain tumour, he also burned money which is a whole other level of crazy. The man was also suspicious of the virtue of the philosopher's which is taken to be a good in itself, and the idea that creation and cure is destruction may be much more frightening than the way he is making it to be. Also god is often taken to be pure will, the will of god is actuality while our will involves possibilities.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Will to Meaning

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Why use the word "slave"? Nietzsche was describing reality as he saw it, followed with pointing out meaning making. His description sounds very similar to what you might find in the tao te Ching or even ashtavakra gita, in fact he has coincidentally quoted lines from those texts. What they had which he didn't was a oneness with that groundless yet definite reality, all he seemed to have was dramatization. So why use the word "slave"?
Pam Seeback
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Re: Will to Meaning

Post by Pam Seeback »

Seeker, I used the word slave because existence (us) has no choice but to make meaning. Do you never have moments when you experience weariness of meaning-making and the thought crosses your mind "okay, enough is enough!", but of course, enough is never enough.

I believe that at the heart of all suicides is weariness of meaning-making, but of course, whether the one contemplating suicide considers it or not, he or she does not know if by ending their current appearance as consciousness they are ending their meaning-making - logic of the infinite and eternal nature of consciousness suggests not.

As I see it, accepting one's existence as probable eternal meaning-maker (Conceptual [Son of] God as infinite and eternal meaning-maker) is the first step toward developing an eternally strong, awake, conscious meaning-making spirit. Where Nietzsche saw this as Ubermensch, the channeling of passions (if you notice, he uses the word "force" to describe the neverending drive of the will to power) rather than the suppression of them, I would say that meaning-making is not so much a passion as an inherent drive or urge of spirit to express itself.

Where Nietzsche's passions or force of will is blatantly masculine in nature, the Tao te Ching's reference to oneness is not, it has always been tied in more with the feminine yin more than the masculine yang. Which is why I suggest meaning-making that acknowledges both aspects of spirit, the drive towards absoluteness, individualism, something, logic, principles, values, justice and respect (yang/masculine) and the sinking into the relatedness of nothingness, emptiness, love (yin/feminine) when the masculine spirit is at rest. I am not suggesting they are separate from one another, one effects both, rather, that at any given moment of conscious attention, one or the other is "in the driver's seat." Let wisdom be one's guide.
Last edited by Pam Seeback on Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Will to Meaning

Post by Pam Seeback »

Bobo wrote:The literature says that he had a brain tumour, he also burned money which is a whole other level of crazy. The man was also suspicious of the virtue of the philosopher's which is taken to be a good in itself, and the idea that creation and cure is destruction may be much more frightening than the way he is making it to be. Also god is often taken to be pure will, the will of god is actuality while our will involves possibilities.
You are suggesting there are two wills in the universe? Can you give me the logic of this conclusion?
Bobo
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Re: Will to Meaning

Post by Bobo »

Maybe Newton's first law of movement gives a clear picture here, a body in movement will keep in movement unless acted upon by an external force. You could interpret this as there being internal and external forces, or as there being no need for any kind of internal forces since a body will tend to keep doing what it is doing anyway, no need for drives. The interactions happens between distiguished forces or wills.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Will to Meaning

Post by Pam Seeback »

Bobo wrote:Maybe Newton's first law of movement gives a clear picture here, a body in movement will keep in movement unless acted upon by an external force. You could interpret this as there being internal and external forces, or as there being no need for any kind of internal forces since a body will tend to keep doing what it is doing anyway, no need for drives. The interactions happens between distiguished forces or wills.
The force that acts upon the body in movement appears to be external, appears to be being the operative phrase. It is logically impossible for an actual external to exist anywhere in consciousness/existence.
Bobo
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Re: Will to Meaning

Post by Bobo »

I see, but something that exists eg. a chair, isn't the total of existence. We can say that a chair has four legs, I'm not sure that means we can say that existence has four legs in the sense we talk of the chair having it. Another example is that if someone injures their left arm in some way it can he said that that person is injured, it cannot be said that their right arm is injured.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Will to Meaning

Post by Pam Seeback »

Bobo wrote:I see, but something that exists eg. a chair, isn't the total of existence. We can say that a chair has four legs, I'm not sure that means we can say that existence has four legs in the sense we talk of the chair having it. Another example is that if someone injures their left arm in some way it can he said that that person is injured, it cannot be said that their right arm is injured.
We were talking about will, the spirit of causation, not its forms that appear to consciousness. While will is of (all of) existence, its forms appear as distinctions to sense consciousness, including "chair with four legs" and "left arm with injury." It is wrong thinking to confuse cause (formless spirit/will) with its effects (form).
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Will to Meaning

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:I also ask the reader to consider that although Nietzsche declares that the world (you and I) are nothing more than the will to power and nothing besides, that in truth, hidden within his very own philosophy is the "higher" metaphysic of the will to meaning.
It's I believe not as much hidden with Nietzsche as will to truth since he does suggest it to be another will to power. But one has to read Schopenhauer's work "The World as Will and Representation" to have a proper context of these terms as Nietzsche used them.
Pam wrote:I also ask that the reader consider that Nietzsche's eventual collapse into mental illness at the sight of a horse being beaten was a manifestation of this ignorance and that the legacy of this failure to see in his own philosophy, the will to meaning (or perhaps he saw, but couldn't express) is the legacy now of the philosophers who follow him.
Bobo wrote:The literature says that he had a brain tumour,
A note about this idea of a "mental illness" or "brain tumor". Leave it to females to wonder about a philosopher's health and pension plan! There are of course many theories on the various medical conditions and other causes although it's academic speculation with nothing being conclusive. It's interesting to read reports from for example Rudolph Steiner's visit to a silent but very "present" Nietzsche or the report of some of Nietzsche's good friends who still had conversations with him leaving them baffled. Something changed with him but what exactly and which conditions apply here, is difficult to tell.

It always seemed to me, admittedly speculation as everything else at this point, that the beaten horse being embraced was an actual expression of seeing his own philosophy, his view on humanity as a mistreated beast. It's something he did suggest in his work. Not just mistreated by our thought but by our consciousness, our fragmented views and imaginary worlds and things in which we see our reflections staring back like laughing mirrors... But the moment such realization becomes full and complete, perhaps there's nothing left but silence? Or letting go of the violence force, the very violent discipline which moves philosophy and all our world building, wouldn't it become a dangerous stress? Like a sudden full holiday after years of non-stop working? Food for thought.
he [Nietzsche] also burned money which is a whole other level of crazy.
Never heard that one before. It reminds me of Socrates though: accused of debasing the coinage. Who has pointy ears, please listen up!
Pam Seeback
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Re: Will to Meaning

Post by Pam Seeback »

movingalways wrote:
Can you honestly say that pure seeing does not have meaning for you?
Diebert wrote: Understanding meaning cannot have any further meaning. It's that way not like other kinds of seeing -- pure, undisturbed. Perhaps it should not be called seeing at all since all meaning forms out of connections. Even neutral observation remains a complex of connections, a sort of dialog, a language full of confusion.

Another way of saying this is that it becomes true because it's now seen in everything. Every breath one takes. It's become unavoidable.
I moved this from the Aquinas thread as it seemed a better fit here.

The truth that meaning is formed out of connections is at the core of my meaning of meaning. That while pure, undisturbed seeing of emptiness is the truth brought on by the understanding of the infinite nature of things it is impossible for consciousness to function without relating in some way to its things, in other words, that making a meaningful connection between observer and observed is, to use your word, unavoidable.

As food for further discussion if you are so moved is that this meaningful connection between observer and observed that comes of the realization of one's infinite nature is that of love of the agape or divine or universal kind. And that in finding this union (condition) of emptiness-love one is complete of Earth (female) and Heaven (male). Another way of saying this would be that every breath one takes of emptiness realization is the formation of love.

And further, that the formation of love comes in the form of bliss (the immediacy of union awareness) and of compassion for those who do not yet have knowledge of their infinite nature, which is the entirety of animal consciousness. An interesting connection to be made here is the universality of breath awareness; no being short of taking their own life can end their sentience, and even then one is not certain that in doing so sentience comes to a permanent end.
Bobo
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Re: Will to Meaning

Post by Bobo »

DvR wrote: Never heard that one before. It reminds me of Socrates though: accused of debasing the coinage. Who has pointy ears, please listen up!
Before his breakdown his landlord said that Nietzsche required to have the pictures removed from his room to make it look more like a temple, and had strange habits like dancing naked and burning money.
DvR wrote: t's I believe not as much hidden with Nietzsche as will to truth since he does suggest it to be another will to power. But one has to read Schopenhauer's work "The World as Will and Representation" to have a proper context of these terms as Nietzsche used them.
And Spinoza's conatus which is a form of self-preservation and was a source to them both, while the concept itself goes back to antiquity.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Will to Meaning

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

movingalways wrote:Seeker, I used the word slave because existence (us) has no choice but to make meaning. Do you never have moments when you experience weariness of meaning-making and the thought crosses your mind "okay, enough is enough!", but of course, enough is never enough.
Perhaps but the word slave still carries obvious negative connotations. Which in itself is 'meaning making'. Just to clarify, there is meaning and meaning assignation, we are not literally 'making meaning', since making usually implies intention or design, but that's just nit picking and surely already known. In answer to your questions, perhaps we all experience such moments, but I would not say that I am a slave to meaning making, if anything I would say that the awareness of it is closer to liberation as opposed to bondage.
movingalways wrote: I believe that at the heart of all suicides is weariness of meaning-making, but of course, whether the one contemplating suicide considers it or not, he or she does not know if by ending their current appearance as consciousness they are ending their meaning-making - logic of the infinite and eternal nature of consciousness suggests not.


Why "suggests not"? That implies uncertainty. Are you not certain of this logic? Or is there another reason or non-reason you refer to this conclusion uncertainly? I have noticed it a few times.
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