Questions and Answers

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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SeekerOfWisdom
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Questions and Answers

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

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Russell Parr
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Re: Questions and Answers

Post by Russell Parr »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:After having recently posted a thread regarding the general tendency of forum users to ignore questions and topics in relation to their lives, I received responses which expressed the belief that such discussion was mostly irrelevant. It seemed to me as if certain people denied the relevance of their existence altogether, as if they'd had no experiences, no jobs, no relationships, no emotions, no confusions, no delusions, ever.
The purpose of this forum isn't to deny that we all experience these things, but to explore how to grow beyond our attachments to them. Dwelling on them is ultimately a form of indulgence, in an attempt to comfort the ego. The point of the path is to equip oneself with the skills to adequately peer through dualistic experience in order to perceive the forest for the trees, the big picture, the Ultimate, and reside therein. Focusing on the individual experience is a very personal matter, and as such usually deters discussions from the intended direction.

What we do in our private lives is obviously important and relevant.. to us individually. Again, expressing one's personal life experiences is usually an attempt to feel a part of something, which is obviously egotistical.

Now this isn't to say we should never express life experiences at all. Sharing our own experiences in order to help illustrate a point can be very helpful. Let's just not do it for the sake of doing it, otherwise we might as well hold hands and sing kumbaya.

As for ardy's thread, there's a bit of underlying context that might be subtle to perceive, but make no mistake, his intentions were to drive the discussion into something less, backwards even, than what the real purpose is. Moving's answer wasn't wrong or bad per se, but not very helpful if you really consider the point of it. Diebert's post (which was more or less a reply to me), as brash as it may appear, was more relevant overall.

To put it briefly, get over yourself so that you may know no-self. Unless you make the determined effort to make enlightenment the dominant part of your life, your ego will continue to pursue avenues for dominant expression, and most likely succeed.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Questions and Answers

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Russell Parr
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Re: Questions and Answers

Post by Russell Parr »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:
Russell wrote:Dwelling on them is ultimately a form of indulgence, in an attempt to comfort the ego
The same can easily be said for one who, for example, makes the attempt t ignore or avoid such attachments.
Yes, avoiding or ignoring won't help, one must reform their thinking so that one perceives reality in the ultimate sense. It is more like a 'growing out of' ego centered thought.
The word you rightly used in the following sentences was usually, which you left out of this sentence. Of course it is obvious that people in general are doing this all the time, but few of these people log on to this forum and the usual is not really our concern. As you said, there's a strictly personal aspect to it. For this reason it is only a detriment to assume the mindset or purpose of another.
I left out 'usually' because I can't see any reason for the wise to ever dwell on personal experiences. Perhaps we differ in what we mean by dwelling.
The point of my post was not specifically on the avoidance of discussing life experiences. It was instead a general outlining of the lack of direct response to questions of all kinds. This lack of direct response is usually replaced by a wider answer due to the very same kind of assumptions or generalities you made in your comment, i.e. that the topic is usually an indication of some struggle with the ego.
Sometimes it might be better to not respond directly to every detail of a post in order to get to the point. Getting into elaborate answers of why this or that question or statement is illogical or misguided can lead into lengthy, fruitless discussions, just because the illogical or misguided one might feel obligated to simply defend his position. With some people, such strenuous elaboration may be beneficial, with others, only detrimental to any chance that they might see the truth. Either way, what's important is that the main point is being made and the truth is expressed.
Speaking of further exploration, I think elaboration on the primary cause of avoiding self-related discussion would be beneficial. I think you point out that cause, which appears to be in the form of a belief, or more hopefully, a conclusion from observation, here:
Russell wrote:get over yourself so that you may know no-self. Unless you make the determined effort to make enlightenment the dominant part of your life, your ego will continue to pursue avenues for dominant expression,
You've probably read this before: "There is a mountain. There is no mountain. There is a mountain." To me the purpose of this is closely in line with the points made here:

"realisation of Noble Wisdom...which is devoid of all predicates such as being and non-being, oneness and otherness, bothness and not-bothness, existence and non-existence, eternity and non-eternity; which has nothing to do with individuality and generality,”

"things have nothing to do with qualified and qualifying, nor with the course of birth, abiding and destruction, and instead they assert that they are born of a creator, of time, of atoms, of some celestial spirit. It is because the ignorant are given up to discrimination that they move along with the stream of appearances”


The dissolving of such beliefs, attachments, and discrimination is what leads to one no longer being mired in delusion. While using terms such as getting over 'yourself' and knowing 'no-self' are useful for communication, such predicates are inaccurate. Perhaps this innaccuracy carrys over, leading to categorization followed by intellectual aversions toward what is seen as attributes of 'yourself' or 'ego', as opposed to knowledge of 'no-self'. These grounded distinctions regarding what the attributes of the 'ego' are do not hold merit to the groundless, where attachment to preconceived notions regarding the origin of form, thought or self no longer exists. This is where enlightenment appears and cultivates in depth, and is no longer deluded by relatively meaningless terminology.
How I understand the mountain analogy: First, there are attachments to perceptions (grounded in duality), then there is a dismantling of perceptions in order to rid oneself of attachments, and finally there is perception without attachments.

What I meant by 'get over yourself to know no-self' is to dissolve the belief in self (and other) in order to perceive/understand groundlessness.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Questions and Answers

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Cahoot
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Re: Questions and Answers

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From Neo’s pov, the Oracle was a Liar.
Lest the point of this also be lost, wisdom can be found on the rocky shoreline of wrecked preconceptions.

*

After the first baby steps, the transmitter in Timbuktu is not so much responsible for garbled reception caused by aftermarket add-ons to the receiver, add-ons such as preconceptions, conditioning, obstinance and willful ignorance. Philosophies concocted out of such garbled reception, and then a foot-stamping insistence on discussing said philosophies, is not so much the concern of the transmitter.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Questions and Answers

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Cahoot wrote:From Neo’s pov, the Oracle was a Liar.
Lest the point of this also be lost, wisdom can be found on the rocky shoreline of wrecked preconceptions.
Off-topic but recently I realized the Matrix movie is all about waking up in the body. Nothing too fancy when the scifi elements are unwrapped. So realizing the social construct our waking world is engaged in, one is "reborn" into the more immediate concerns and powerfull motivators of the body and its genes. This is why, visually, the movie outside the matrix looks so much like Asimov's "Fantastic Voyage", added to that the close-up shots of faces, skin and all the dancing and machinery.

Of course even the organic world of the body and unconscious is something to journey and at some point perhaps to be understood as illusion and metaphor, just an older more persistent one. Going blind is the true metaphor of philosophy here. Well, this is as far as the movie went, a blend of postmodern writings, science and biology.
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