Perception and Reality

[Beingof1]

Consciousness is all you have known, are knowing and using a handy thing called logic, will know.

All the abstract thinking about cause and effect (which is transpiring in consciousness) being the end all that is somehow outside of the reach of consciousness is but a thought. Where does this thought of cause and effect take place, outside of consciousness?

Can there be a reality 'outside' of consciousness? Please, all the wise ones take a shot at this would ya?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

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[Russell Parr]

For the benefit of the forum, I am sharing my comment which was in response to Seeker in PM:

My exact statement on the cause of consciousness is that it appears to be the body. This makes all of my statements consistent with each other. Your entire reply is basically a response to this, so I hope you'll understand that I see no reason to reply to it in complete detail.

I don't know exactly what causes consciousness, or anything, for this is an empirical matter, which is always inherently uncertain to some degree. This point keeps going over your head, and I can see why with your outlook.

I want to present a few questions that will hopefully give you a better understanding of where I'm coming from.

Why are there individual, finite instances of consciousness?

Why can't we read other people's minds?

Why is it we are so limited in our choices? For example, why can't we fly, teleport, grow or shrink at will, etc.?

Why is reality so consistent? Every day has striking similarities, with many events happening almost the exact same way. Science experiments can be performed numerous times producing the same results. What's with that?

You can't answer these questions without causality. If everything is merely consciousness, where does causality fit in?

Btw, I explained causality in more detail in Knais' thread, in case you missed it.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

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[Bobo]

>> Can there be a reality 'outside' of consciousness? Please, all the wise ones take a shot at this would ya?

Why not, there are things that aren't thoughts which are located spatio-temporally on the 'outside', outside is just how we call it and the evidence for it is that it can be referred to with incredible high precision compared to some other forms of inter-subjectivity.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

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[Russell Parr]

Seeker,

You've continually projected beliefs into my statements that are completely inconsistent with what they actually say, so it's pointless to break it all down. I'll just make a couple of points.

-I've always said that all things are impermanent and are appearances, and yes this includes consciousness. The materialist is the one who believes that at least one thing inherently exists, and that's you.

-To say there is no consistency in reality is absolutely absurd.

Your outlook works within itself, I'll give you that. The tricky part is that it allows you to read actual wise sayings from others that seem compatible to your views, even though they mean something far different. Nevertheless, such a view is far too simplistic, and leaves too many questions unanswered. I was close to falling for it long ago, but continued to probe. Until you honestly open your mind to questions like "why does logic always work?" or "how can there only be appearances?", you'll be stuck with this pseudo-enlightenment.

[Bobo]

>> Whenever such things "which are located spatio-temporally on the 'outside'" are 'experienced', it is only ever as impermanent appearances such as sensation and thought.

It appears to be so, I am not so sure about what is 'not experienced' tough, as it doesn't appears to be experienced.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

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[Beingof1]

>> Can there be a reality 'outside' of consciousness? Please, all the wise ones take a shot at this would ya?

Why not, there are things that aren't thoughts which are located spatio-temporally on the 'outside', outside is just how we call it and the evidence for it is that it can be referred to with incredible high precision compared to some other forms of inter-subjectivity.

There is no such 'thing' that exists outside of consciousness. That belief is the greatest myth of all.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

>> Can there be a reality 'outside' of consciousness? Please, all the wise ones take a shot at this would ya?

Why not, there are things that aren't thoughts which are located spatio-temporally on the 'outside', outside is just how we call it and the evidence for it is that it can be referred to with incredible high precision compared to some other forms of inter-subjectivity.

There is no such 'thing' that exists outside of consciousness. That belief is the greatest myth of all.

There's another perhaps even larger myth however: that consciousness has insides or outsides. Or would be endless. Any "thing" like any sense of consciousness equals that very boundary between what is and isn't. Consciousness as the ultimate superficial affair, where our conscious world plays out. Those boundaries stem from causality and are always subject to change and perspective. But they're not imaginary unless consciousness itself would be seen as that as well.

[Beingof1]

>> Can there be a reality 'outside' of consciousness? Please, all the wise ones take a shot at this would ya?

Why not, there are things that aren't thoughts which are located spatio-temporally on the 'outside', outside is just how we call it and the evidence for it is that it can be referred to with incredible high precision compared to some other forms of inter-subjectivity.

There is no such 'thing' that exists outside of consciousness. That belief is the greatest myth of all.

There's another perhaps even larger myth however: that consciousness has insides or outsides.

Yup - you should not promote that myth. Consciousness has a centre that is everywhere and a circumference that is no where.

Or would be endless.

And right after saying this is a myth - right back to your contradictory myth. If it is not endless, it has a stopping point. If it ends - it has an 'outside'. I mean, that is just logic, would you agree?

Any "thing" like any sense of consciousness equals that very boundary between what is and isn't.

Where is the boundary of consciousness?

Consciousness as the ultimate superficial affair, where our conscious world plays out. Those boundaries stem from causality and are always subject to change and perspective. But they're not imaginary unless consciousness itself would be seen as that as well.

Uh huh - says someone who has never, at any time, ever, under any circumstances experienced a single experience outside of their consciousness.

Do you remember a time you were not?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

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[Pam Seeback]

Ultimately it doesn't matter if there are causes or things outside of consciousness because we wouldn't be conscious of them anyway. Perhaps I'm only speaking for myself but what seems to be happening here is wisdom fatigue, the 'is that all there is' syndrome when the truth of boundary illusion and emptiness finally hits home. Like we've pulled the sword out of the stone and instead of being warriors for being imbued with the truth we've found, we've become procrastinating sabre bashers instead. Just a thought.

[Russell Parr]

Things Being or Seeker might randomly appear as tomorrow, or hell, even the next few moments since, you know, only consciousness underpins everything in existence, not something that would actually hold everything together like "causality":

-A dog
-A cloud
-An 8-foot alien insect, complete with memories of a 200 year long lifespan and an unshakable belief in the flying spaghetti monster
-Something completely unfathomable to our imagination as of yet
-The same person he is today, who still believes that consciousness = reality. What a coincidence that would be!

[Russell Parr]

Perhaps I'm only speaking for myself but what seems to be happening here is wisdom fatigue, the 'is that all there is' syndrome when the truth of boundary illusion and emptiness finally hits home.

Oh, I doubt it. Look at Being, 10 years plus and running believing in this nonsense. Some people just don't have what it takes.

In case your accusation was aimed at me as well, the phrase "all that there is" is just a linguistic tool, useful at times for explaining things. I don't hold any ultimate merit in it.

Wait a minute..

Ultimately it doesn't matter if there are causes or things outside of consciousness because we wouldn't be conscious of them anyway.

You don't know if consciousness is caused? Or are you letting a desire to disperse an argument cloud your judgement?

[Bobo]

>> Do you remember a time you were not?

I may not remember a time I were, that doesn't appear to be in consciousness

[Beingof1]

Seeker:

I think his meaning was just that perceived boundaries aren't imaginary things, otherwise we'd have to say that the entirety of consciousness was unreal in some way.

He meant the exact opposite. I have discussed this with Diebert on many occasions.

In order for cause and effect to be the ultimate it implies a mechanical universe all run by series of trip hammer causes independent of any life at all. In the end, we are an accident and reduced to the ghost in the machine.

movingalways:

Ultimately it doesn't matter if there are causes or things outside of consciousness because we wouldn't be conscious of them anyway.

Unless of course you one day realize you are omniscient, omnipotent and are the cause of all effect.ace as a wh perhaps that seems to far fetched for you right now and because that very well may be the case - it all really does not matter.

Perhaps I'm only speaking for myself but what seems to be happening here is wisdom fatigue, the 'is that all there is' syndrome when the truth of boundary illusion and emptiness finally hits home. Like we've pulled the sword out of the stone and instead of being warriors for being imbued with the truth we've found, we've become procrastinating sabre bashers instead. Just a thought.

We are approaching a singularity and unless the human race as a whole graduates from these kindergarten mind sets, it is doomed to recessing into Neanderthal design board time.

You may think what you want and I do not care at this point but I have meditated more than any human being I have ever known. I have more understanding than any human being I have ever met and I have more - shall we say - hyper human abilities than anyone I have ever met. It is a travesty that those that think they know are still barely crawling out of the muck and smack the hand away that is trying to pull them to safer ground.

But what do I know? I have an unbroken lineage of Christian ministers for hundreds of years that I have descended from. I have only changed all of physics, seen more non ordinary events(miracles) and communed face to face with the meta mind of the universe in an audible voice.

But again, what do I know, right? I am sure most will spin this as ego flexing because they cannot seem to wrap their noodle around the idea that I actually exist.

The unlearned have no idea I almost never, ever talk like this but the density of the human race is choking out true wisdom and understanding.


Russell:

Things Being or Seeker might randomly appear as tomorrow, or hell, even the next few moments since, you know, only consciousness underpins everything in existence, not something that would actually hold everything together like "causality":

-A dog
-A cloud
-An 8-foot alien insect, complete with memories of a 200 year long lifespan and an unshakable belief in the flying spaghetti monster
-Something completely unfathomable to our imagination as of yet

I have a suggestion; try a word search for my screen name to see if I 'get this'. To much work?
I know, its just to easy to talk smack.

It is so stunning that the ones who have barely understood cause and effect think they have reached the pinnacle of understanding.

-The same person he is today, who still believes that consciousness = reality. What a coincidence that would be!

I remember our last conversation. You ignore everything I say, stick both of your fingers in your ears and stick out your tongue and believe you used logic to trounce all opposition.

Answer just one question. Can you manage that? is that to much to ask? Can you try to focus on just one question? Is that to much work? Will you try?

Tell me one thing in your list above that exists outside of consciousness?

Shall we go for question #2 or would that stretch your mind to much?

Where does cause and effect begin and your consciousness end?


Bobo:

>> Do you remember a time you were not?

I may not remember a time I were, that doesn't appear to be in consciousness

If you were at a baseball game and do not remember being there, were you conscious at the event?

[Bobo]

There's a funny thing about memories that sometimes they come in flashes and flushes. So if something like that happened with a memory of being in a baseball game for example for a moment a person wouldn't be counscious of have been conscious at the game. So it seems that things can be brought into counsciouness, isn't there a difference between not remembering and never being there?

[Russell Parr]

Answer just one question.

Meh, not interested. All you do is regurgitate the same set of questions over and over, and I'm sure the answers have been spelled out for you dozens of times, and can be found on the forum hundreds, if not thousands of times.

Tell mr meta mind I said Hi.

[Beingof1]

Answer just one question.

Meh, not interested. All you do is regurgitate the same set of questions over and over, and I'm sure the answers have been spelled out for you dozens of times, and can be found on the forum hundreds, if not thousands of times.

Tell mr meta mind I said Hi.

You are a hypocrite and dishonest.

What is like to never look behind your eyelids?

[Beingof1]

There's a funny thing about memories that sometimes they come in flashes and flushes. So if something like that happened with a memory of being in a baseball game for example for a moment a person wouldn't be counscious of have been conscious at the game. So it seems that things can be brought into counsciouness, isn't there a difference between not remembering and never being there?

Yes there is. If you were to not remember the event it would be as if it never were experienced. If something were to trigger the memory of the event, you would recall the memory. Prior to remembering, where was the memory of that event?

[Bobo]

Somewhere in the brain? The distinctions we would have to make are between counscious , unconscious and not even conscious as parts of what we experience as events and other people's consciousness.

[Pam Seeback]

All we ever get is a sense of what is true moment by moment. Try to grab onto it and experience the consequences.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

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