Perception and Reality

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Russell Parr
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

Seeker,

For a moment I thought that perhaps this was all a big misunderstanding of my expressions because I am usually inclined to reject any identification of self with anything else. But I understand when the wise say things like "I am God" or "I am the All", and I thought this is where you were going, but now it doesn't look that way.

What is it that you believe exactly? Reincarnation? That consciousness that once inhabits the body continues on after death? If so, why?

And calm the hell down. No need to be all pompous about this stuff. Belittling others is counterproductive more often than not.

btw, I may not be able to respond further after this post; will continue tomorrow.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Perception and Reality

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Cahoot
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Cahoot »

Seeker, though you may be fascinated by the wandering movement of bright shiny thoughts, for the benefit of readers, folks customarily get their thoughts together in order to make a coherent posting. You have the same amount time, and you’re working with the same materials, as everyone else. So quit whining that you don’t have what you need. You’ve got your sissors and construction paper. Stop pointing at the other children and hollering about what you can’t see on their worktables, and let’s see what you’ve done.

While we’re patiently waiting with baited breath … :D
movingalways wrote:Nothing inherently exists. Done and dusted. Do I hear a but?”
seeker wrote: So the sentence has little use by itself, in fact, I have absolutely no clue what your understanding of it is from the sentence alone.
Seeker, though you have made a tentative venture into the realm of facts, do you have a clue as to what your understanding is?

*

movingalways, for the benefit of the clueless, if you could elucidate on that “but” of yours that you included …

Nothing inherently exists.
No … thing inherently exists.

Russell has referenced “absolute truth” a number of times.

1. Based on the assertion that nothing, or no thing, inherently exists, can we say that absolute truth is not a thing, and thus inherently exists?

2. Or, must we say that absolute truth does not inherently exist?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Perception and Reality

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Cahoot
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Cahoot »

Seeker, calm down.

My question was posed to movingalways.

She will answer in order of importance to her life, I will reply in kind.

At least give her the courtesy to answer.

Be realistic.

*

As far as anything else goes, see if you can focus and clearly state whatever it is that’s bugging you.

Be brief. Be clear. Be honest. Don’t try to confuse me.

And then I’ll get back to you, in order of importance.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Perception and Reality

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Pam Seeback
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Pam Seeback »

Hi Seeker:
That's not going to clear anything up for them moving. Did you not read how deeply the confusion is rooted? They actually believe in the body as being a self-substance and in a self which is subject to an end at bodily death.
I haven't read all the posts, so I'll deal only with what you are presenting to me. The truth that nothing inherently exists states the truth that everything is causally interdependent, therefore there is nothing permanent in the universe, certainly not the concept of self. Realizing that belief in a continuing or eternal self is THE cause of ignorance and that if such a belief were dropped wisdom would naturally come is the core message of all wisdom teachings. Hopefully this happens before death, that way the individual will have some time on earth free of the "self's" unnecessary burdens. Are you aware that one of the principle teachings of the Buddha is that of Annatta which states that there is no agent or experiencer present? Which is an insight I had long ago but has taken me years to finally absorb. Here is a logical account of what "happens at death" is given here in Wiki in their page of The Middle Way:

In Theravadin soteriology, the principle of anattā means there is neither a permanent self nor complete annihilation of the person at death; there is only the arising and ceasing of causally related phenomena
When you tell them nothing inherently exists they think you're talking about cause and effect, they idolize that idea, and imagine their existence as being causal and thus dependent/it will end.
See above quote from Wiki.
"Nothing inherently exists" is the catch phrase of one of the forum founders, yet he made this video about how brain-death is an end to your existence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Brxaz0OKG8
The moment the video started and I saw the monk sitting in his orange robe in the lotus position looking all wise and "guru-y" I knew every word that would come out of his mouth would be indeed, as Kevin said, nonsense. The truth is as Kevin states, the monk is speaking of near-death experiences, not after death experiences even though as the video progresses he gets them confused. The truth is, no one knows what happens when that candle flame of consciousness is snuffed out by way of wisdom of no-self, only that the universe or life continues being the universe, causing what it causes.
So the sentence has little use by itself, in fact, I have absolutely no clue what your understanding of it is from the sentence alone. Only by having read your other posts and witnessing you demonstrate a correct understanding do I know otherwise, such as right here:

movingalways
"whether the one contemplating suicide considers it or not, he or she does not know if by ending their current appearance as consciousness they are ending their meaning-making - logic of the infinite and eternal nature of consciousness suggests not."
I'm not sure how old that quote is, but no matter, since saying those words, I have let go the burden of the ignorance of the idea of self. Note that unlike the Buddhist monk in the video, I did not claim to know what happens after death, instead I presented skewed logic based on previous attachments.
This is in direct contradiction to the forum founders view; in the video he exactly states that consciousness dies with the body. Yet "nothing inherently exists" is his catch phrase...

Seeing the 'problem' here? This whole time we've overlooked people like Cahoot as they vaguely dance around truths and engage in pretend-wisdom while at the same time harboring a hundred nonsensical and contradictory beliefs. Don't put faith in people out of a "benefit of the doubt" sort of respect, you'll find it is almost always misplaced. Be blunt, be clear, otherwise each person will continue making vague statements in a way that allows only imprecise interpretation and thus avoids any logical confrontation.
Blunt and clear: There is no self. It is belief in self as a permanent or fixed thing that causes belief that all things or some things are permanent and fixed, aka the many attachments to things that we can't imagined our life without. As for consciousness dying with the body, I turn you to the Buddhist teaching of the causal chain of dependent origination which places consciousness as an effect of ignorance. So what do you think is the effect on consciousness when ignorance ends? I refer you to this teaching because I am aware you often refer to Buddhist ideas.
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Pam Seeback
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Pam Seeback »

Hi Cahoot:
movingalways, for the benefit of the clueless, if you could elucidate on that “but” of yours that you included …

Nothing inherently exists.
No … thing inherently exists.
Hopefully my but was sufficiently elucidated in my response to Seeker.
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Cahoot
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Cahoot »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:You asked "What's the proof of otherwise?", yet the burden of 'proof' falls to the one making the claim. You claimed that bodily death is "the end", of I'm assuming one or all of the following, take your pick: consciousness, existence, the self, you, the mind.

Elaborate on why you think this is the case, otherwise I am unable to answer your question, as I cannot provide proof of otherwise since you haven't clearly stated what is coming to an "end" at bodily death? As far as I can tell you were referring to your existence or consciousness. Is that correct?
Here’s some more of the original quotation, from another thread. This is not what I’m adding, this is just a little bit more of what you’ve subtracted.
After asserting a number of times that reality is infinite, perhaps some reasoning to support that theory is in order? Or is the reasoning merely, faith?

Because, empirical evidence indicates that once the body dies, Fini. Last stop. End of the road. End of the line. Punch the ticket.

What’s the evidence of otherwise? (Turn the receiver dial away from the reception setting that marks this question as an assertion that the evidence does not exist.) (;
The evidence of otherwise, which was the question, is reasoning.

Moving supplied reasoning. Which was pretty decent of her.

No biggie. Q&A.

Now that’s cleared up …

Do you think that the fella in the video is experiencing reality? Yes or no … but feel free to elaborate. I notice moving answered the question, but you did not.

You do know that the end is just a thought in your noggin, don’t you?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Perception and Reality

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Re: Perception and Reality

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Cahoot
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Cahoot »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:
Cahoot wrote:
You do know that the end is just a thought in your noggin, don’t you?
You're getting somewhere! If only you spent more time in your noggin' thinking about that thought regarding the end just being a thought. That would be a good start. I'll provide the tidbit I provided earlier, and probably little else for now:

"You believe in 'the end'."
Since you already know that, then you could have skipped all your bs.

Where do I sign up for misogyny?
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Cahoot
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Cahoot »

Russell wrote:And calm the hell down. No need to be all pompous about this stuff. Belittling others is counterproductive more often than not.
I think it was an interesting discussion, and it's helpful to never forget that it’s not the noise that distracts, but one’s reaction to noise.

I think that the fella in the video can only experience reality, and not believe that temporal delusion is reality, when he never forgets that he is experiencing reality.

To always experience reality is to never forget that one is experiencing reality. Never forgetting is effortless.

Never forgetting is distinct from always remembering.

To always remember requires effort, and you will fail in the effort. If you try to always remember, you will forget and slip into delusion, though you will also remember and apprehend reality from time-to-time, rather than experiencing reality corrupted by delusion.

In self-enquiry as a practice, you can maintain the focus of every moment with intellectual thought, and this will wear out the intellectal base that is the root of trying to remember.

However, when one never forgets, one perceives the canvas all the time, one perceives the helmet all the time, one perceives contrasting impermanence, all the time.

And all the time becomes necessary without anchor, or stars, or shoreline, or sextant.

So yes, I say that philosophically, the fellow in the video is experiencing reality, as long as he knows that he is experiencing reality, and this knowing is of the type that is perpetual, never ending, not dependent upon thought because thought comes and goes, but dependent upon awareness that precedes thought, though thought can recognize reality at any moment when it remembers to look.

Empirically it can be said that one loses a lot, but something is gained in awareness, something that was not there before, and that something is never forgetting.

Are these thoughts too mundane for the forum?

Or is it that they do not follow accustomed formats, though because they are rationally valid, they can be discussed rationally.
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Russell Parr
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

Things Seeker hasn't processed in all the time he's been here:

-Consciousness has no way of existing without being harnessed by a finite entity it in order to be aware of "self" and "other."

-Infinite Causality renders all things null and equal, including consciousness.. No wonder he never has anything to say about it.

-Nonduality has no meaning if consciousness is permanent.. No wonder he never has anything to say about this one either.

-The concept of non-inherent existence has no meaning either, because apparently consciousness inherently exists. Oh look, another thing he never has anything to say about.

Clearly, believing something this distorted stunts the potential for wisdom. All that's left to do is pretend to be wise.

Your head is too big Seeker. You come in thinking you had already won, and offer a whole lot of "I'm right, you're wrong" or "the sages agree with me, not you guys", and virtually zero "here's why I'm right:".

You need to explain exactly how it is that consciousness continues after death, or that consciousness is the all, or whatever it is that you believe. Any further statement to the effect of "you have to figure it out" or "I ain't giving it away for free" says nothing more than "I don't really know, but I really believe it!!!"
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Russell Parr
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

Cahoot wrote:Are these thoughts too mundane for the forum?
I'm afraid it is, Cahoot. There's nothing particularly profound in your comment, such an understanding isn't all that uncommon in everyday average people.
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Russell Parr
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:As if one is allowed to dance around so much as to state all at once that consciousness will die but the mind is reborn but existence will end but there is no self but "I" is god.
I'll square this one off for you.

Indeed, consciousness will die, in the sense that when someone dies, so does their consciousness.
No, no mind is "reborn", except perhaps in the sense that the mind's experiences change from time to time, as in the concept of buddhist reincarnation. Nothing to do with bodily death and resurrection.
Yes existence comes and goes along with consciousness, i.e. the appearance of separation.
Indeed, there is no self, ultimately.
I am god is a way of saying that I have no self, I am merely a part of infinite creation, in which there is ultimately no separation.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

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Pam Seeback
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Pam Seeback »

Seeker:
It is my prediction that at the end of the conversation, by way of your adoption of the virtue of humility, you will be able to point out many of the flaws and misunderstandings you displayed in your previous post regarding death and the self. Which I also believe will be helpful in illuminating truth for other members. I assure you that my enduring intentions, as so far as I have any, are 'good'. Whenever I have recently put down the views of others, or had my own views put down, I have kept in mind, as I often keep in mind, the powerful wisdom expressed in this quote:

A great nation is like a great man:
When he makes a mistake, he realizes it.
Having realized it, he admits it.
Having admitted it, he corrects it.
He considers those who point out his faults
as his most benevolent teachers.
He thinks of his enemy
as the shadow that he himself casts.

I look forward to your reply.
I read this post after our PM conversation began. Although I am happy to continue with our inbox discussion, I am unclear as to why whatever truth you believe you know about death and the self that you believe I lack cannot be shared here on the board.
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Russell Parr
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

I agree. As if it's magically going to make him right.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

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Russell Parr
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:(It's in my nature to never not-reply)
I.e., "My ego won't let anyone else have the last word."
"the end is coming for my no-self"
This is just a gross misinterpretation of the concepts. No-self is the realization that the boundaries between all things are illusory, and thus oneness of the all is what is ultimately true. What comes to an end are appearances of the moment. When we talk about "self", "you", "I", and "body", these are all appearances, which again, come and go in various lengths of time.

You probably have a decent awareness of what I've wrote thus far. Now carefully read the following.

Causation permeates the whole of reality. Appearances arise when consciousness is caused, but consciousness isn't always caused. In fact, it isn't caused anywhere and everywhere outside the reach of consciousness, as well as before and after it is caused.

In a very real sense, your consciousness is never even there, only causality. You are at the mercy of causality, and whatever you perceive is strictly according to causation's whims. When you're awake, causation gives the appearance of everyday life on earth. When you are asleep, causation gives the appearance of dreamland. Keep in mind that the "you" that is "awake" or "asleep" is just another casual appearance. Once the cause of your consciousness changes into something that doesn't cause consciousness, *poof* no more things, concepts, awareness, nothing. Self, I, all gone. Just pure, unconscious, unbounded Reality, which is always ultimately the case, hence the illusory nature of things.

Set your ego aside and read that over and over.

In fact, how much do you even actually read? Have you read DQ's Wisdom of the Infinite? It spells this stuff out so clearly, and if you had read it, you would've never assumed that the forum founders agreed with you. I've no idea why you would be here for so long, for over 2000 comments, without studying their materials more thoroughly.

Do you smoke a lot of weed, Seeker? I enjoy a toke too every now and then, but that stuff can make people way overly confident in themselves.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Pam Seeback »

Russell: Causation permeates the whole of reality. Appearances arise when consciousness is caused, but consciousness isn't always caused. In fact, it isn't caused anywhere and everywhere outside the reach of consciousness, as well as before and after it is caused.
It appears as if Seeker does equate the All with consciousness, an error I once made myself. It is an error that is difficult to see through because one is tied to the idea of being conscious while trying to "figure it out." This is why the concept of infinite causality (as opposed to the more common and erroneous ego-centric concepts of infinite self or infinite consciousness) is so helpful. What is critical to making this shift is to realize that understanding the concept of infinite causality is not the same as understanding the concept of linear or 3D cause and effect.
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Russell Parr
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

movingalways wrote:What is critical to making this shift is to realize that understanding the concept of infinite causality is not the same as understanding the concept of linear or 3D cause and effect.
Great point. I agree, it's not that easy to figure out. I remember user Beingof1 was a big proponent of this belief as well. Even worse is when people claim things like "love" to be the fundamental substance of reality. It basically amounts to an egotistical desire to spread at least some part of the self to encompass the All, and usually leads to a great amount of false pride.
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Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Bobo »

I don't think this is about our ability to pin point a beginning and end in things, the arguments put forth are that things without beginning and end don't exist, and things that exist have to be empirically verified and have beginnings and ends.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Perception and Reality

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