Perception and Reality

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
User avatar
Cahoot
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Cahoot »

I understand what you’re saying, Russell.

The logical consequence of what you’re saying is: absolute truth can only be absolutely perceived by absolute awareness, and pure logic can only be purely perceived by pure awareness.

Who claims pure and absolute awareness? I do, says Buddha. And what is your proof, Buddha? Buddha touches the earth with a fingertip.
SeekerOfWisdom
Posts: 2336
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Edited
Last edited by SeekerOfWisdom on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Cahoot
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Cahoot »

Seeker, Seeker.

There should be a more intelligent way to indicate a good belly laugh other than digital petrogliphs and cliched abbreviations, so we harken to older times with a hardy and genuine haw haw haw. Check your hinges, they are loose, headed for un.

"Because, empirical evidence indicates that once the body dies, Fini. Last stop. End of the road. End of the line. Punch the ticket."

That’s exactly what empirical evidence indicates. Duh. You think it indicates something else? What, you think zombies are real too? No, they’re not, and neither has man stepped on Mars. You watch too much TV. There are no zombies, but there are energy vampires who latch onto the thoughts of another. Sound familiar?

But it's okay. You can stick around. That laugh was worth it.
User avatar
Russell Parr
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:44 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:
Russell wrote:Further absolute inferences include that the appearance was caused, that something other than the observer must exist,
I think if you take a second look at it, this quote isn't exactly an absolute inference.
Even though existence has no ultimate substantiality in reality, conceptions that imply separation, and thus existence, can still have meaning when it comes to absolute truth.

Where there is an appearance, there is an observer, and vice versa. This is absolutely true.

There are some absolute truths that seem to contradict others that end up completely compatible in view of the whole picture.
I had to go through a long process of being 'attacked', criticized, and called out on my beliefs before I could drop them. Each person knows if they've reached it. It took me a good 4 years of it to finally get to the end. There's no wisdom without that completion, that balance between the conventional and the ultimate. Sadly, the more intelligence, the more bullshit, the harder it is.
While attaining is certainly a mountain climb, the hardest part to wisdom is holding onto it.

I think Cahoot is utterly satisfied with his worldview, and just isn't compelled enough to see through it. Or perhaps he, like our resident senior Ardy (elbow jab for ardy), is simply too set in his ways.
User avatar
Cahoot
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Cahoot »

"Because, empirical evidence indicates that once the body dies, Fini. Last stop. End of the road. End of the line. Punch the ticket."

Russell. You can’t prove otherwise, can you?

Such are the limitations of logic and reason.
User avatar
Cahoot
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Cahoot »

Seeker wrote:I had to go through a long process of being 'attacked', criticized, and called out on my beliefs before I could drop them.
You came through your long years of experience conditioned rather than unscathed, which is perfectly natural. Likely the conditioning is hidden from you, as it's obvious that you perceive attack where there is none, and spend a lot of dramatic time in delusional retaliation.
SeekerOfWisdom
Posts: 2336
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Edited
Last edited by SeekerOfWisdom on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Cahoot
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Cahoot »

seeker wrote:Empirical evidence indicates the body will die, sure, but you said it indicates more than that, "the end", "end of the road", and so on, you were talking about more than the passing of the body. You meant consciousness, or what you are, who you are, the self, your existence, however you want to put it. You believed that was the case. No getting around it now. Eventually you'll agree it ain't "the end", and hopefully then you'll be able to recognize your clinging.

I indicate no belief. I asked for, and continue to ask for, evidence. Since there aren't zombies, try reasoning.

What’s with you anyway? You couldn’t provide an insight on ardy’s thread, and you can’t provide any evidence in this thread.

Your only evidence has been, “Me too Russell! Me too Russell!” (That was one of the belly laughs.)

You offer no reasoning or empirical evidence, because obviously your assertion that death of the body is not the end, is based on some kind of faith or belief, because it sure ain’t based on evidence that you have provided, as you continue to dodge and weave.


Geeze. You’re enough to make a man misogynistic.
SeekerOfWisdom
Posts: 2336
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Edited
Last edited by SeekerOfWisdom on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Cahoot
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Cahoot »

That’s all right. You’ve proven your dishonesty, no need to keep convincing.

For your own sake you should quit trolling and address facts, not that anything you write matters here, since you’re proven that you are a dishonest person.

Here’s the actual quote that you keep lying about.
Cahoot wrote:Because, empirical evidence indicates that once the body dies, Fini. Last stop. End of the road. End of the line. Punch the ticket.

What’s the evidence of otherwise? (Turn the receiver dial away from the reception setting that marks this question as an assertion that the evidence does not exist.) (;
I have confidence that Russell can provide evidence in the form of reasoning.

Not much confidence in Seeker’s ability to do the same, since he has yet to even try, but apparently is ever-poised to shout, "Me too, Russell! Me too, Russell." haw haw haw
SeekerOfWisdom
Posts: 2336
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Edit
Last edited by SeekerOfWisdom on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Cahoot
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Cahoot »

seeker wrote: “what's in it for me”
It depends. Nothing new for you when you continue with your dishonesty and lies. But if you can find your way to be honest and drop your pettiness, you’ll experience what is the unknown for you, and the unknown for you is honest rationality. You should really seek that rather than your notions of wisdom that are limited by your dishonesty, for it is sublime, for when you’re honest then truth is within your grasp. And it’s just ‘bout the most fun they is, just ‘bout. But if you continue to be dishonest, you’re just another arrogant wanker, and as a matter of fact, you really should get with the program, as many have repeatedly advised. Other than that, time will tell if you've managed to shift your inertia.
SeekerOfWisdom
Posts: 2336
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Edit
Last edited by SeekerOfWisdom on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Russell Parr
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:44 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

You two.. lol
Cahoot wrote:"Because, empirical evidence indicates that once the body dies, Fini. Last stop. End of the road. End of the line. Punch the ticket."

Russell. You can’t prove otherwise, can you?

Such are the limitations of logic and reason.
If you insist.. end of what exactly? Life? Existence? Consciousness? Truth? Yes, according to empirical evidence, the death of the body means the end of those things for that person.

Or do you mean the end of reality? Reality has no beginning or end, and has no dependency on a living being. Reality is simply what is.
SeekerOfWisdom
Posts: 2336
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Edit
Last edited by SeekerOfWisdom on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Russell Parr
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:44 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

As far as I can tell, when people die, their consciousness dies along with them. This is an educated guess, sure, but I don't see why anyone should believe otherwise.

Are you referring to something else? I'm not sure what you mean by "final death" and "final end".
SeekerOfWisdom
Posts: 2336
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Edit
Last edited by SeekerOfWisdom on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Russell Parr
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:44 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

Here I was, thinking, hoping, that you had figured this out by now.

What you don't seem to understand is that what exactly happens to consciousness at death, or what causes consciousness, is an empirical matter, and can only possibly be an educated guess, as with all empirical matters. Consciousness is a thing, and just like everything else, it is finite, with a beginning and end. The only thing that doesn't fit this description is Reality itself (which of course isn't really a thing due to it's ultimately indivisible and wholesome nature).

Consciousness is clearly not the whole of reality, it is one caused phenomena in the midst of an infinitude of causes. All causal processes come and go. The Tao isn't characterized by consciousness, but rather its ever-flowing nature within and beyond consciousness. Consciousness comes and goes within the Tao.

And please, stop with this "I'd be giving it away for free" bullshit. Everyone knows you have to work for enlightenment, but that doesn't stop the Buddha or any other sage from sharing insight tirelessly. Your responding in this way does little more for you but make you appear to be someone who thinks he knows it all, brags about it, then scurries away from the probing spotlight of investigation. If you want to say that you disagree, that's fine, but otherwise, either put up or shut up.

Oh, and if you think the forum founders disagree with me, then explain this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Brxaz0OKG8

Or read the material under "Consciousness" from Solway's Poison for the Heart, especially the part labeled "Material consciousness". And before you try to use the Q&A part as proof for what you're saying, re-read it and note that he refers to consciousness as 'thoughts', which too are clearly finite.
Last edited by Russell Parr on Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bobo
Posts: 517
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:35 pm

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Bobo »

Uhhh, Russell if I'm not mistaken you also think that things only have existence when they appear to an observer?

So your concept of existence is relative -ie. it only makes sense to talk about something existing in relation to some observer- other than that from this position the question of consciousness existing after death can only mean "does something exists without it existing?".
User avatar
Russell Parr
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:44 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

Bobo wrote:Uhhh, Russell if I'm not mistaken you also think that things only have existence when they appear to an observer?
Things don't exist at all without an observer.

Existence itself is ultimately illusory. Existence implies contrast, and for there to be contrast there must be a contrasting agent, i.e. consciousness. Without consciousness, there is no contrasting, thus blending all things together into oneness or nothingness.

This naturally leads to questioning the existence of consciousness. Consciousness is indeed real, but it has no actual existence beyond the appearance that it does. It doesn't inherently exist either because it, like all things, are caused.

I know this can be hard to make sense out of, but you just have to work with it until it clicks.
Bobo
Posts: 517
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:35 pm

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Bobo »

What caught my attention was "or what causes consciousness, is an empirical matter.", it seems that you're talking about things that have an existence without an observer.
User avatar
Russell Parr
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:44 am

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Russell Parr »

When we are talking about something, there is a 'something other' necessarily implied, a something that is not the original something. Consciousness is a thing that can be talked about just like everything else, but what makes it unique is that it, as we define it, is the seat of all demarcation, the starting point so-to-speak. So when discussing what causes consciousness, we have no choice but to refer to something that precedes it, and is thus indiscernible. All we can know is that it is definitely something other than consciousness.

Empiricism gives us a useful idea of what that something is, but as discussed, can never be absolute.
SeekerOfWisdom
Posts: 2336
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Edit
Last edited by SeekerOfWisdom on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Pam Seeback
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:40 pm

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by Pam Seeback »

Hey boys, can't see clearly for the flying piss :-)

Is not the simple truth that all things (thoughts are things) are empty of inherent existence? The simple truth that may take a while to sink in, but the simple truth all the same. The simple truth that once absorbed allows one to go forward thinking of things without getting all tied up in metaphysical/philosophical knots.

Nothing inherently exists. Done and dusted. Do I hear a but?
SeekerOfWisdom
Posts: 2336
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Re: Perception and Reality

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Edit
Last edited by SeekerOfWisdom on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Locked