What Insights Have You Experienced?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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ardy
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What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by ardy »

A few months ago I asked a question about how much experience others here have had on the road to finding yourself.

Now I am interested in what insights have been thrown up and what you observed within yourself.

I was a member of the School of Philosophy for 5 years and one thing they claimed was that only 11% of the population are interested in the world within. So on this site we have many who are within this 11%.

Things happen to you as you wander into yourself and I am hoping you are as interested as I am in what has happened to you.

Last time I stated my experience upfront, this time I would like to hear what has happened to you and then I will add my meagre insights.
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Pam Seeback »

No-self, impermanence, timelessness, non-duality, causality, the first three around ten years ago, the fourth about seven years ago, the fifth just recently. The most memorable of the four was the insight of no-self. I was lying in bed thinking as I usually did about these things and suddenly, I bolted upright and said out loud to myself "there is no self, there really is no self!" Since having these insights, I have had an ongoing insight: having an insight is not the same as living/being true to an insight!

I haven't formally studied philosophy or theology or logic, my quest has been entirely self-guided, beginning in 1989 with New Age "spirituality"/mysticism. At the time, I had no idea what I was looking for, perhaps some sort of mystical paradise or magical realm that would permanently fill me with light and happiness, I really had no idea. When no insights of any substance came, disillusionment set in and I found myself, beginning around 2004 on the path not of what would make me happy 24/7 but, rather, what is true 24/7.
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

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movingalways wrote:No-self, impermanence, timelessness, non-duality, causality, the first three around ten years ago, the fourth about seven years ago, the fifth just recently. The most memorable of the four was the insight of no-self. I was lying in bed thinking as I usually did about these things and suddenly, I bolted upright and said out loud to myself "there is no self, there really is no self!" Since having these insights, I have had an ongoing insight: having an insight is not the same as living/being true to an insight!

I haven't formally studied philosophy or theology or logic, my quest has been entirely self-guided, beginning in 1989 with New Age "spirituality"/mysticism. At the time, I had no idea what I was looking for, perhaps some sort of mystical paradise or magical realm that would permanently fill me with light and happiness, I really had no idea. When no insights of any substance came, disillusionment set in and I found myself, beginning around 2004 on the path not of what would make me happy 24/7 but, rather, what is true 24/7.
Thank You for this post. Very interesting, the recognition of no-self is something I have not experienced and is something that really (if there was any logic which there isn't) should have been at #5. As you state, insights are rare glimpses but so frustrating like a spark in the dark. The disillusionment you mention has taken many in suicide which is one of the reasons the inner search has its dangerous side.

I assume the path to find what is true is ongoing? I have something to say about this when I post my own stuff.

Just re-reading your post reminds me of the Van Morrison line "No method, No guru". It seems any search within throws up stuff that to me seems amazing...
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Russell Parr
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Russell Parr »

ardy wrote:the recognition of no-self is something I have not experienced and is something that really (if there was any logic which there isn't)
How are you able to determine that there is no logic within an experience you claim to have never had?
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by ardy »

Russell wrote:
ardy wrote:the recognition of no-self is something I have not experienced and is something that really (if there was any logic which there isn't)
How are you able to determine that there is no logic within an experience you claim to have never had?
I sort of expected this comment from you. What I was referring to was that the identification of No-Self is generally associated with a final stage before enlightenment and nothing else.

I am not sure what I can add to you and DvR's love affair with logic. It is very interesting to see a couple of good brains having at it over exact words and logical inexactitudes but in my world that takes you nowhere. You can be thick as a brick and still break through.

Why don't you add your insights to this thread to show what your logic has thrown up, rather than trot out the same well-worn logical path you and DvR love so much?
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Russell Parr »

ardy wrote:I sort of expected this comment from you. What I was referring to was that the identification of No-Self is generally associated with a final stage before enlightenment and nothing else.
Oh, ok. I thought you might've meant that but I didn't want to waste a good opportunity, just in case :)
I am not sure what I can add to you and DvR's love affair with logic. It is very interesting to see a couple of good brains having at it over exact words and logical inexactitudes but in my world that takes you nowhere. You can be thick as a brick and still break through.
There's no love affair with logic, just a desire to emphasize its importance in a world that sorely undervalues and misunderstands it.
Why don't you add your experiences to this thread rather than trot out the same well-worn path you and DvR love so much?
Maybe later. This feels too much like some sort of mundane group assignment honestly, and I don't see how it would benefit anyone involved.

Anyone can come in here and say they've experienced this or that, but how would we know that they know what they're talking about without delving into the details?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Yes this thread looks like some declaration of love with ego after it felt hurt (it always is). Logic is a blessing given to anyone willing to disinfect.

The whole topic of this forum is discussing insights and understanding when it comes to reality, perception and the path to deepening these until all the nonsense once seen as so important can be clearly seen as not. About every thread aims to discuss "insights" being "experienced". The point is to be able to talk about it using clear, individual, honest language without feeding your own or other people's hungry ego. That's the reason it might often sound too logical, boring, pointless and unpleasant. There's nothing there "in it" for us after all.
movingalways wrote: I bolted upright and said out loud to myself "there is no self, there really is no self!"
Like there's no mountain. When you had that no-self moment, didn't you notice other things disappearing as well? Didn't you look out of the window without knowing anymore what it was you're looking at? There's no difference between self and world. You cannot drop one without the other. It's at such moment that you realize that there's no isolation between self and world, that it's the same "nonsense" while both still rise and fall.

Not wanting to put down a rare achievement but seeing through various of the more obnoxious illusions and dreams of whatever it is we're telling our selves is like seeing the elephant in the room. It might be rare that someone sees it but it's still in the realm of obviousness. But addressing what it all does at the core: providing the world and the other, that's what philosophy is ultimately about. And when on that path it becomes clear we need a language to address the language. Since we exist in the exchange and flow of symbols, gestures and verbs, there's really no way to wake up to what we are without also becoming more self-reflective on those core elements: symbols, words and gestures. The call for logic is nothing but a call for carefulness, deliberation, dispassionate reasoning and the understanding that our language arises out of our understanding, like our understanding rises out of our life and our world. Target the one and you target them all.
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Pam Seeback »

ardy: Thank You for this post. Very interesting, the recognition of no-self is something I have not experienced and is something that really (if there was any logic which there isn't) should have been at #5.
I wasn't aware there was correct order of insights. :-)

It is totally logical that there is no self in existence. "Self" implies an objective or outside thing that is observing/managing the things of existence. Since nothing can be outside existence, the totality of things, it is therefore illogical to believe in an external thing called a "self."

Another example of why insight and logic are not mutually exclusive is the insight of "desire" as being the root of attachment. One can have the insight that "I desire" keeps the engine of self alive and in the same breath realize that the appearance of "I desire" is illogical. Why? For the same reason the idea of self is illogical, why would that which is a totality of things need to desire "its" things?

For years I fought logic as factor in understanding the nature of reality which in hindsight I attribute to my desire for that mystical non-thinking realm I mentioned. What helped was to fool myself for a while by denying the concept of logic and embracing the concept of wisdom, but eventually, I could no longer deny that wisdom and insight logic are one and the same.
I assume the path to find what is true is ongoing?
I have found what is true, the task now is to keep what I have found.
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Pam Seeback »

The whole topic of this forum is discussing insights and understanding when it comes to reality, perception and the path to deepening these until all the nonsense once seen as so important can be clearly seen as not. About every thread aims to discuss "insights" being "experienced". The point is to be able to talk about it using clear, individual, honest language without feeding your own or other people's hungry ego. That's the reason it might often sound too logical, boring, pointless and unpleasant. There's nothing there "in it" for us after all.
And why desire for the world continues instead of being extinguished.
movingalways wrote:
I bolted upright and said out loud to myself "there is no self, there really is no self!
"
Diebert: Like there's no mountain. When you had that no-self moment, didn't you notice other things disappearing as well? Didn't you look out of the window without knowing anymore what it was you're looking at? There's no difference between self and world. You cannot drop one without the other. It's at such moment that you realize that there's no isolation between self and world, that it's the same "nonsense" while both still rise and fall.
It was indeed a radical moment of disappearance of the world, but it took many more of these moments before its truth "sunk in."
Not wanting to put down a rare achievement but seeing through various of the more obnoxious illusions and dreams of whatever it is we're telling our selves is like seeing the elephant in the room. It might be rare that someone sees it but it's still in the realm of obviousness.
This is what can derail us, this failure to see that we have deluded ourselves into believing in the reality of a self, and that because we have deluded ourselves, all that needs to be done is to remove the delusion. But, being so used to being seduced by the idea of enlightenment as being something "better" or "higher", waking up in the realm of the obvious is the last thing the desiring I wants. But this is where compassion comes in - it's as if we have to be seduced into giving up being seduced :-)
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:But, being so used to being seduced by the idea of enlightenment as being something "better" or "higher", waking up in the realm of the obvious is the last thing the desiring I wants. But this is where compassion comes in - it's as if we have to be seduced into giving up being seduced :-)
Hmm yeah; seduced to discover the truth of seduction. A modern koan! With seduction there's always both sides being seduced while seducing. The first being the obvious but the reverse being the real gotcha. Are we then also tempting the world to exist? How dares it!
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
movingalways wrote:But, being so used to being seduced by the idea of enlightenment as being something "better" or "higher", waking up in the realm of the obvious is the last thing the desiring I wants. But this is where compassion comes in - it's as if we have to be seduced into giving up being seduced :-)
Hmm yeah; seduced to discover the truth of seduction. A modern koan! With seduction there's always both sides being seduced while seducing. The first being the obvious but the reverse being the real gotcha. Are we then also tempting the world to exist? How dares it!
Without defining which action of seduction is more obvious, the rational (will to exist, to be) by the irrational (will not to exist, not to be) or the irrational by the rational, it is clear that it is the seduction of contrast that causes the world of contrast to exist. And of course, the only way to question whether or not it is possible to be conscious/awake without the seduction of contrast is by using the rational. Which begs the question, is rationality the way beyond (first) irrationality and then, rationality?

Note: In using the term "going beyond" I am not suggesting going beyond existence (impossible!) rather, going beyond a particular way of existing (in this case, the desire for/the making of contrast).
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by ardy »

DvR: So you have managed to drag this thread back onto your well worn path and still nobody has any idea if you or Russell have had any insights at all.

Why not just start a thread called 'Post here if you want to discuss the detritus of Logic and language ad infinitum?'
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

ardy wrote:DvR: So you have managed to drag this thread back onto your well worn path and still nobody has any idea if you or Russell have had any insights at all. Why not just start a thread called 'Post here if you want to discuss the detritus of Logic and language ad infinitum?'
If you're not able to express your experienced insights in some reasonable language, then you're still a child. Your dislike of logic is clear and related to your attachment to things which have nothing to do with the realities being discussed here. Your attempts to insert spurious attempts to discuss some "describing of experiences" show you don't understand much of them, that your whole focus is still backwards!

Don't you get that nearly every discussion at this forum is aiming for exactly the same thing you are suggesting to do in this thread? It's rather absurd and that's because you do not realize that the type of logic and reason employed here is deeply connected to all experiences, to all of reality, not just thoughts. It's growing out of truth and experience as a ripe fruit. This is the reason your hero Laozi couldn't keep his mouth shut about the unspeakable Tao either. There's no difference between his words and Tao, the only differentiator of importance to us being quality. But only because the natural context of growth drives us to go for the ultimate and reach for what's the most connective, powerful and rich expression of our experiences available. And that has always been the case.
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

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Diebert van Rhijn wrote:If you're not able to express your experienced insights in some reasonable language, then you're still a child. Your dislike of logic is clear and related to your attachment to things which have nothing to do with the realities being discussed here.


You grossly misunderstand me. I have a high regard for logic but only when it offers something apart from an ego pat on the back. I spent 25 years working in large IT companies I met and worked with some of the great logical brains in that area ie guys who designed chipsets and others who built complex algorithms to simulate the ocean/sky/wind etc. which are used in movies and games everywhere today.
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Your attempts to insert spurious attempts to discuss some "describing of experiences" show you don't understand much of them, that your whole focus is still backwards!
If you have nothing to say, say nothing...If you learn nothing from backwards then forwards can be difficult. BTW it is about insights! which have always been regarded as significant.
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Don't you get that nearly every discussion at this forum is aiming for exactly the same thing you are suggesting to do in this thread?
NO! It strikes me that many threads here are to prove that the name 'Genius' has some foundation here and not to show or elucidate insights or assist others in understanding.
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:It's rather absurd and that's because you do not realize that the type of logic and reason employed here is deeply connected to all experiences, to all of reality, not just thoughts. It's growing out of truth and experience as a ripe fruit. This is the reason your hero Laozi couldn't keep his mouth shut about the unspeakable Tao either. There's no difference between his words and Tao, the only differentiator of importance to us being quality. But only because the natural context of growth drives us to go for the ultimate and reach for what's the most connective, powerful and rich expression of our experiences available. And that has always been the case.
Have few hero's Lao Tzu is not one of them.

And yet this eminent logical scholar could not answer a simple question.

Hui-neng, the sixth Patriarch, asked, “Whence do you come?”
Huai-jang of Nan-yueh said, “I come from Tung-shan.”
Hui-neng asked, “What is it that thus comes?”
Huai-jang did not know what to answer. For eight long years
he pondered the question; then one day it dawned upon him,
and he exclaimed,
“Even to say it is something does not hit the mark.”

Nagarjuna's Buddhist logic:

All things (dharma) exist: affirmation of being, negation of non-being
All things (dharma) do not exist: affirmation of non-being, negation of being
All things (dharma) both exist and do not exist: both affirmation and negation
All things (dharma) neither exist nor do not exist: neither affirmation nor negation
or
a = a
a does not = a
a is both not a and a
a is neither a nor not a
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Russell Parr
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Russell Parr »

ardy wrote:You grossly misunderstand me. I have a high regard for logic but only when it offers something apart from an ego pat on the back. I spent 25 years working in large IT companies I met and worked with some of the great logical brains in that area ie guys who designed chipsets and others who built complex algorithms to simulate the ocean/sky/wind etc. which are used in movies and games everywhere today.
Logic is not limited to such materialistic avenues. How else can one become wise but by restructuring one's mind in a way that enables proper perception of reality? Logic is the very essence of structural thinking. Why do you so oppose this idea?
ardy wrote:It strikes me that many threads here are to prove that the name 'Genius' has some foundation here and not to show or elucidate insights or assist others in understanding.
I highly disagree. I think that every post can be seen is an incremental exposure of the depths of the user's knowledge. The direction you guide discussions, such as in asking us to spell out our experiences, tells us things about you. In fact, we learn more about others in the organic flow of conversation, in our responses, in our actions, than we do from mere declarations.
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Pam Seeback »

ardy, your words:
The whole of the Tao strikes me as about breaking through the dualities and joining the natural flow of life.
I would like your insights (your own words, no quoting others) on the why and how the dualities came to be, why we must break free of them and how we break from them. Who knows? A most fruitful discussion may develop!
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

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ardy wrote:I have a high regard for logic but only when it offers something apart from an ego pat on the back. I spent 25 years working in large IT companies I met and worked with some of the great logical brains in that area ie guys who designed chipsets and others who built complex algorithms to simulate the ocean/sky/wind etc. which are used in movies and games everywhere today.
Do you need a pat on the back because you did some IT support work assisting something of mediocre importance? It seems to me, based on these exchanges, that you have a highly mechanical outlook on logic, reason and perhaps even nature as some set of biological and physical notions which is then being compared to some other more mystical and non-rational reality. But you'll have to try to wrap your mind around higher, deeper and broader applications of reason. One of them is the realization that you're already applying reason and logic to have a self and a world operational for you. Which is then covered up with a lot of make-up to make it look like something else entirely. That probably has its causes and "reasons" why that has to be that way but the point is to see how it's happening.
Have few hero's Lao Tzu is not one of them.
You seem quite pedantic here and needlessly obsessive with some selective meaning of words. You were the one bringing up Laozi's work, stressing its influence on you over 25 years and calling it one of the great books in the world. Since the only thing we know about Laozi is that writing, he certainly can be called your hero within reason although I do understand you might not like the choice of words as it might indicate worship of a person or a book. But that's not its only meaning and this is simply about influence, impact and admiration of its pure significance.
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

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Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Do you need a pat on the back because you did some IT support work assisting something of mediocre importance? It seems to me, based on these exchanges, that you have a highly mechanical outlook on logic, reason and perhaps even nature as some set of biological and physical notions which is then being compared to some other more mystical and non-rational reality. But you'll have to try to wrap your mind around higher, deeper and broader applications of reason. One of them is the realization that you're already applying reason and logic to have a self and a world operational for you. Which is then covered up with a lot of make-up to make it look like something else entirely. That probably has its causes and "reasons" why that has to be that way but the point is to see how it's happening.
What I do need is something concrete from you that shows you have some understanding of the what happens during insights that is discussed here.

You stated that had some experience of meditation and some affinity with existential philosophy but it seems to have made little impact on you. You prefer your own methodical ploughing through logic, words, dissecting and hanging out to dry meaning and stroking your ego with your own thoughts about how smart you are, ie 'something of mediocre importance?'. Are you stating that you have done something of outstanding world importance that has had more impact than the worlds best software engineers who changed the world of movies, computer design and aerospace that I worked with? If so please enlighten me I can't wait...
You seem quite pedantic here and needlessly obsessive with some selective meaning of words. You were the one bringing up Laozi's work, stressing its influence on you over 25 years and calling it one of the great books in the world. Since the only thing we know about Laozi is that writing, he certainly can be called your hero within reason although I do understand you might not like the choice of words as it might indicate worship of a person or a book. But that's not its only meaning and this is simply about influence, impact and admiration of its pure significance.
Yes I enjoy reading the Tao Te Ching from time to time to try to understand it more, but in terms of influence he has not had a great influence on me. Is that clear enough for your stunted imagination?
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Russell Parr »

Ardy,

Enlightenment and the bliss of mystical experiences are widely held to be the same thing, and it seems you are no different. Logic, in contrast, is taught and regarded to be no more than a means to temporal gain. This couldn't be further from the truth. This is the ego's dream of eternal happiness in self-fulfillment, with total disregard to the whole of Reality. In Enlightenment, the mind is in full control of logic, untethered by the influence of selfish, emotional desire.

The temporal nature of all things, the infinitude of causation, the truth that life and death are illusory; these are all purely logical realizations. Achievements in technological advancements are infinitesimal to the logical realization of the Infinite, indeed mediocre in comparison, in implication and application.

This isn't to claim that Diebert or myself have achieved some sort of greatness (which would be irrelevant), but to expose the error in comparing the two differing applications of logic.
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Russell Parr »

I've been reading some of the transcripts of K.Solway and D.Quinn's radio show from the 90s, The Hour of Judgement, and came across this quote by Kevin, which I think is relevant to our discussion here:
Kevin: This is a very popular idea in all the New Age philosophies - that is, the idea that reasoning and rationality has a fundamental flaw - that it's not realistic, that somehow it's not natural, that it does draw up these sharp divisions between things which supposedly don't have these divisions, when they don't really exist in nature. But I must say that this idea is badly flawed, because reasoning is a part of the human mind, and the discursive, discriminating intelligence is a part of the way that we're made; it is part of the way we've been hard-wired. For as long as we perceive things in any way at all, for as long as we're able to even talk about things, the discriminating intelligence is operating. This applies to fully enlightened people like the Buddha as well. If a Buddha can talk about "things", then discriminating intelligence is in operation. When a Buddha determines what is the right course of action, what is not the right course of action, what stage of evolution a student is at, then a very, very severe discriminating intelligence is in operation. And in fact, I put it to you, that the wiser a person is, the more severe is their discriminating intelligence - the more "vicious" is the discrimination.
Source - http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/j11.html

In fact the whole transcript is relevant, although a bit annoying to read since the guests refused to have their words transcribed verbatim. Kevin and David used "reasoning" more, which perhaps provides relief from the strenuous use of the word "logic" here lately. Discussed in depth is the importance of reasoning in the judgement of wisdom, as well as the role of authoritative figures.
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

ardy wrote:What I do need is something concrete from you that shows you have some understanding of the what happens during insights that is discussed here.
You could start by reading more carefully all what's ever written about it, right from the beginning. Perhaps it's all about granularity and attention?
You stated that had some experience of meditation and some affinity with existential philosophy but it seems to have made little impact on you. You prefer your own methodical ploughing through logic, words, dissecting and hanging out to dry meaning and stroking your ego with your own thoughts about how smart you are, ie 'something of mediocre importance?'.
It's indeed my failure to bring it down to easier more relevant sounding chunks. If only modern human minds were not complex tricky swamps to navigate, then I could just use simpler and stronger phrases to address my view on and experience of existence. But then again, before we know we'd be cows contently mooing to each other and that's not enlightenment! The confrontation with truth is always way sharper and unsettling.
Are you stating that you have done something of outstanding world importance that has had more impact than the worlds best software engineers who changed the world of movies, computer design and aerospace that I worked with? If so please enlighten me I can't wait...
You sound like a very important person knowing such great minds! But movies, computers and aerospace are all unreal worlds in a sense. You seem to be lost in that game somewhat and I know the worlds you speak of better from the inside than you might realize. But that doesn't matter, it's not philosophy, it doesn't address existence much in any relevant way.
Yes I enjoy reading the Tao Te Ching from time to time to try to understand it more, but in terms of influence he has not had a great influence on me. Is that clear enough for your stunted imagination?
You called it " one of the great books in the world" which you "have read many times, always gaining more from it". And yet now you say it didn't have any "great influence" on you. You have been wasting your time then, reading many times "one of the great books" and "gaining always" from it but still not experiencing any great influence.
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by ardy »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:You could start by reading more carefully all what's ever written about it, right from the beginning. Perhaps it's all about granularity and attention?
No! Its about your reluctance to say anything, of any depth or worth, about experiences you have had in the spiritual world. I am starting to get the idea that your brain is so inflexible that no experience could find a way through to you. Your imagination could be atrophied by your rationality and your clinging to logic as some sort of iron-clad god.
It's indeed my failure to bring it down to easier more relevant sounding chunks. If only modern human minds were not complex tricky swamps to navigate,
Human minds are not so complex as any experience of prajna would show you. They are devious and evil some times but that is their lack of insight and not their nature.
then I could just use simpler and stronger phrases to address my view on and experience of existence.
No you would not! you have had umpteen offers to do just that and you avoid it like a plague.
But then again, before we know we'd be cows contently mooing to each other and that's not enlightenment! The confrontation with truth is always way sharper and unsettling.
No we would not be mooing together. We take ourselves with us, according to what I understand but the edge is blunted somewhat by compassion.
You sound like a very important person knowing such great minds! But movies, computers and aerospace are all unreal worlds in a sense.


Avoidance again! Just throw your computer out the window if it is an unreal world. This begs the question what is a real world?
You seem to be lost in that game somewhat and I know the worlds you speak of better from the inside than you might realize. But that doesn't matter, it's not philosophy, it doesn't address existence much in any relevant way.


No of course it doesn't matter as that would be opening yourself up and you never do that. Love the little ego stroke of understated assumptions of knowing more than you are prepared to say about your accomplishments. You almost remind me of those second rate climate scientists, who's first approach to dealing with any questioning of their 'closed science' attacks the 'denialist' scientist with ad hom insults followed up with a concerted effort to get them kicked out of their jobs.
You called it " one of the great books in the world" which you "have read many times, always gaining more from it". And yet now you say it didn't have any "great influence" on you. You have been wasting your time then, reading many times "one of the great books" and "gaining always" from it but still not experiencing any great influence.


I have read many books and gained from most of them, some of them I have read many times and gained insights from them all. I have been influenced by few things in an obvious way. One slightly older guy from my late teens that budged me out of my working class socialist B.S. and into independence. A Jewish guy in Cape Town who opened my eyes to things happening around me, then in my mid 40's Zen philosophy and the insights I gained from meditation. I am 68 now and still prepared to dump all I have discerned if anything more real to me showed up.

You could be more easily influenced than I am? I hold onto my free thinking far more than most. I am convinced that you have been strongly influenced by David Quinn et al and like many bigots you refuse to see anything else or open yourself up. Maybe you are just scared?
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Russell Parr
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Russell Parr »

Ardy, maybe the reason a few of us think it's a pointless idea to "participate" in your thread is because of your behavior leading up to it. You've already expressed, more than once, where you rank the lot of members here, without giving much of any indication that you are qualified for such lofty judgement. So this thread looks more like a way to further adjust and fortify your ranking of us, rather than a desire to learn and share.

Why don't you just share your wisdom with us, like Pam asked?

Keep in mind, the direction you take this thread, or anything you post, speaks volumes of your insights anyway.
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ardy
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by ardy »

Russell wrote:Ardy, maybe the reason a few of us think it's a pointless idea to "participate" in your thread is because of your behavior leading up to it. You've already expressed, more than once, where you rank the lot of members here, without giving much of any indication that you are qualified for such lofty judgement. So this thread looks more like a way to further adjust and fortify your ranking of us, rather than a desire to learn and share.

Why don't you just share your wisdom with us, like Pam asked?

Keep in mind, the direction you take this thread, or anything you post, speaks volumes of your insights anyway.
Yes Russell - I agree that we should just share as Pam suggests....I do not rank the members here, what I have said is that 'I do not think that anyone here is(fully) enlightened'. You may disagree but I do not want to open that one here either.

I did not start this thread with the idea of talking, talking and talking some more with you and DvR about the things that give you two your jollies. I really want to learn from others insights then post my own.

I did not drag this thread in this direction, you and DvR did! AND STILL! no response from either of you about what insights you two have experienced. I can't begin to describe how frustrating and stupid this is.

I assume neither of you have anything to offer.
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Russell Parr
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Re: What Insights Have You Experienced?

Post by Russell Parr »

We have been sharing insights the whole time, in this thread and the others. It's strange that you propose that we must not have anything to offer, unless you mean by your terms only.

It remains that this thread has a dirty feeling to it, and your agenda seems questionable at best.

It's actually looking more and more like you don't have anything to offer.
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