An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
User avatar
Jackal44
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:41 am

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Jackal44 »

You´re tipically wrong.
Religions broke our brains in order to impose a dogma of "Enlightenment" as a concept without any practical medium of changing things on this world.
But the truth is that Enlightenment is something useful here and now.
Without Enlightenment we have no chance of being right.
Goodbye forever blind alley!
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

jufa wrote:
diebert wrote:There's a lot of truth in there, I've to say. But it's a powerful illusion to dream of "knowledge before thought" as some meaningful experience. It's just another sanctified "analyzed feeling of interpretation". Which is all we really know about experiences, no matter how mundane or lofty they might be. In the end, you've got nothing, you cannot have anything there but something which will cast the shadow of challenge and doubt on the walls. Which will cause all these intricate strategies to arise, to persist, assisting in the invalidation of it all. Sweet dreams!
But then in the saying above, one fails to consider it was not a specific thought of their conceptualization, but a Spirit of unification preceding, "knowledge before thought," which merged two elements of the universe to become one experience which produced life's experience, also, before "knowledge before thought" of the one who made such a statement, more than an illusion or dream.
Yes, a powerful illusion, to state there's a special "something" before all other "somethings". Lets call it Something!
Man's interpretation does not enlighten one to know what was before their beginning, nor what will be after their demise.
It suffices to know the stubborn illusions he sees as his beginnings or endings. The follies of "before birth" and "after death" included.
However, it is not an illusion, never can be an illusion, when one is aware of their living between the arc of birth and death.
It's that arc which is exactly that brilliant temporary illusion in a more exotic and seemingly lasting form. Enjoy!
It is the touch of the conscious upon the mind, and the touch of the flesh upon flesh which verifies the Presence of "something which will cast the shadow of challenge and doubt on the walls." It is that "something" which defines "What is Enlightenment," not words from "the shadow of challenge and doubt on the walls."
It's a shadow of ones own self, as illusionary as is its shadow or "unified origin". A projected self since the "original" one felt too unsafe at some point?
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:What is the nature of form, be it thought or not? One cannot say, but to doubt that form knows how to be form is ludicrous given that one must use the wisdom inherent in the form "doubt" to express doubt. The realization of the wisdom of form is not an experience, lofty or otherwise, it is the experience of wisdom, one that if cultivated, produces rest (absence of doubt) in emptiness.
Form does not "know" how to be form since form is just being supposed! That very supposition and reflection equals the whole form giving.

You don't need a form to give form, you don't need some "inherent" wisdom inside a form to express itself. You don't need a resting place in emptiness.

Then again, perhaps you do need it.
Pam Seeback
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:40 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
movingalways wrote:What is the nature of form, be it thought or not? One cannot say, but to doubt that form knows how to be form is ludicrous given that one must use the wisdom inherent in the form "doubt" to express doubt. The realization of the wisdom of form is not an experience, lofty or otherwise, it is the experience of wisdom, one that if cultivated, produces rest (absence of doubt) in emptiness.
Form does not "know" how to be form since form is just being supposed! That very supposition and reflection equals the whole form giving.

You don't need a form to give form, you don't need some "inherent" wisdom inside a form to express itself. You don't need a resting place in emptiness.

Then again, perhaps you do need it.
For now, yes, but that need is lessening every day. Keeping on remembering there is no perceiver (an I) that CAN rest.
User avatar
Jackal44
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:41 am

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Jackal44 »

Genius got to do with "will and imagination".
We can use words as beauty and hope.
But these are just words if we cannot experience
the intensity of testing ourselves with true "will and imagination"
in order to create the consequences of Enlightment.
Goodbye forever blind alley!
User avatar
chikoka
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:16 pm
Location: Zimbabwe

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by chikoka »

Perhaps there are concepts which do not "arise" from their definition...definitions being murky pointers to what is actual..how else could you mention what you are asking about..as in.."what is enlightenment" ..what did you mean by enlightenment when you were asking the question..what could you possibly be expecting as an answer excpept perhaps.."not what you've heard before"...hmmm
User avatar
John Paul
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:17 am

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by John Paul »

This is because individual words or sentences in a text can only be properly understood in terms of how they fit into the larger structure of the text and language itself.Words develop meaning because of contrast effects with other words.
User avatar
chikoka
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:16 pm
Location: Zimbabwe

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by chikoka »

John Paul wrote:This is because individual words or sentences in a text can only be properly understood in terms of how they fit into the larger structure of the text and language itself.Words develop meaning because of contrast effects with other words.
If you properly understand what enlightenment is. (there was given a scentence). Then why give a scentence of the form "what is enlightenment". You know already.
Patriarch
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Patriarch »

"Enlightenment" is not a word one should use: having passed through public perception, it has been defiled with various connotations including the most common association of mysticism. But that's an entirely different topic.

"Enlightenment" is simple: it's self-awareness. Few people understand that concept of "self-awareness", however, so let me sum it up. Think of something you know. Be it your job, some hobby, whatever; doesn't matter, as long as you know the subject in and out - you've "mastered" it. When you're doing the activity, you've got all the facts and details in your head, you think about all the pieces, how they fit together, how you can move them. When you get really, really good at something, you stop thinking about it because it's instinctual, it's habit.

Same thing with self-awareness, but the information you're dealing with is your emotions, your thought processes, your body, all that is you. If one can understand every component of themselves, consciously control them, move them at will, they are "enlightened". A simple concept, so why isn't it a common ability, given the extreme usefulness of it?

Simple: people are too small to easily comprehend the universe; while I'm certain the majority of people are capable of "enlightenment", the chances of them acquiring it are slim-to-none: they're too busy with staying alive, being pushed around by impulse, terrified by the ramifications and implications of self-assessment, being filled with blatantly incorrect information by culture [often about what constitutes "enlightenment" and other desirable traits]; frankly stupid; and riddled with comforting and useless self-imposed delusions [the religious, of course]. The point is: the average life, in this age, is not conducive to productive thought.


I've noticed alot of this thread has to do with the accuracy of one's perceptions. Yes, we can self-deceive; yes, we can misinterpret; yes, we can assume. Struggling with these patterns of thought, I'm sorry to say, reveals you as only beginning to become self-aware: these are, frankly, a child's mistakes. Try not to take that as an insult: I am showing you your position, not attempting to demean. If I wanted to hurt you, I'd start making up bullshit about the validity of the various religions.
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Hello Partriarch, welcome.

A couple of remarks on your post, as it looks like somewhat contradictory or at least unclear on what you're trying to say,
"Enlightenment" is simple: it's self-awareness. Few people understand that concept of "self-awareness", however
It's not simple then since you add that "few people understand". This means it cannot have been that simple as concept. And the word "simple" always relates to the conceptual or the estimated or observed effort it might take to grasp or reach. What is not conceptual is neither simple or complex.
If one can understand every component of themselves, consciously control them, move them at will, they are "enlightened". A simple concept, so why isn't it a common ability, given the extreme usefulness of it?
How could anyone understand every component? The truth of causality will lead you quickly to appreciate the complexity of what controls the body, the mood, the hopes and the dreams of people. It's debatable how much of it one can control. Most of that perception appears when walking some pre-defined path, created by others, following some idea and route carved out by others, "guided" by millions of random elements all leading up to the moment one looks back and wonders.
Simple: people are too small to easily comprehend the universe.... while I'm certain the majority of people are capable of "enlightenment.... The point is: the average life, in this age, is not conducive to productive thought.
What happened to "enlightenment is simple"? Clearly people lack some capacity if you say they're "too small" and their "age is not conductive"? You're really presenting enlightenment as something advanced, rare and difficult considering your assessment of people and their context.

But I'm looking forward to anything you have to say apart that something might be "simple", "advanced" or "childish". :-)
Patriarch
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Patriarch »

Ok. I'm done trying to work around the censor bot. Someone lift it's meddling, or find me another avenue.
User avatar
Russell Parr
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:44 am

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Russell Parr »

Step 1: Join a forum about Enlightenment.

Step 2: Claim to know 1) exactly what Enlightenment is and 2) that it is a word that shouldn't be used (i.e. censorship)

Step 3: Give up on the forum the first moment one's interpretation is challenged by complaining about.... censorship!
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Hmm, I was wondering if he meant some humorous filter Dan once enabled dealing with L.O.L.'s or the limitation on posting links. It's hard to imagine any philosophical post would have a problem dealing with limitations. Hey, isn't philosophy everything about dealing with various incredible limitations?
User avatar
Russell Parr
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:44 am

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Russell Parr »

I'm pretty sure "lol" is allowed again, and I think it was David that had a script that changed it to "I am stupid" or something like that.

As a younger fellow, it's actually hard not to use it myself.. it's far too common to avoid in mobile and internet texting language these days.

But yes, I think he was referring to your criticisms at the end of your response to him. I hope I am wrong!
Patriarch
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Patriarch »

You may want to consider your manners; some people are worth your time. Of course, others aren't, and it's best to ignore them; personally, I like proving they are fools before doing so - hopefully inspiring them to.. what's the politest way of saying this? Shut their ignorant, meddlesome mouths? You decide.

Now, out of patience and good-will, I'm going to tolerate a censor bot that I would have no idea existed [as I've just arrived] unless it interfered with me. I'm sure you thought of that though; this is a "genius forum", after all. Please be patient with my thoughtless, empty, loud-mouthed mistakes: I seek nothing but your approval.

Let's see if parting this response [which I developed in about 15 minutes immediately after waking up] will help it through the bot. I'm afraid I've lost the necessary interest to reedit it from my attempts to get through the bot, but I'm sure you possess the intellects to put it together.

Em, I've never been accused of being pedantic; I find the details are usually caught in the overall flow. Completely understand the necessity of zooming in to address tricky problems, but I find it mostly a waste. Now, I'm going to be polite; it's going to get in the way of conveying my message. I don't know the rules here, and now is a wonderful time to test the local personalities before investing - would anyone be so kind as to run me through them quickly? Oh, and apologies: I don't know how this quoting system works [so nice that these are common now]. And would someone be kind enough to inform me as to whether or not the forum has a streak of.. insecure, condescending, confrontational people? I prefer to spend less time politely talking down to people.
Does this place actually censor language, the bot is harassing me for "bad language"? I've had to butcher my work for the sake of a flashing bot. Please clarify on this specifically, as I won't tolerate censorship, and certainly not from an automated system.

Like all things, it's simple when you know how. The problem is that the zeitgeist has absolutely poisoned all information related to reflection - I mentioned it, and other factors, later in the thread, though certainly not with great elaboration. Oh, I was also vague on the nature of.. childish forms of semi-conscious self-adjustment leading to twisted mental structures.. likely too much elaboration to stay on point - depending on the rules.
Patriarch
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Patriarch »

Sit someone down with nothing else to distract them, and they're likely to adopt it quickly -even instinctively- but the problem at that point is, as just mentioned, building themselves incorrectly. Ya, big issue. But add a guide? I theorize most people would be capable of it, but I wouldn't know: I've never had a batch of students. Certainly a far better investment than most of what Academia sparkles out. Ever notice in docmentaries with tribes, out in the middle of no where, with little contact with people, how they behave? Course, I've personally seen one or two of those tribes drugged up and mean, but they had more contact.


Details, details. Anyone can find fault in anything, but who can make it work? Save us both alot of time if you figure out what I mean rather than looking for problems that I created through negligence in outlining every little thing - only so much time in a day. Recall those masters of various eastern religions being so enigmatic? This is the reason; it's filters out very specific types of people. Much like the "Mu", which is an absolutely fascinating, and frankly high-genius form of social-engineering. Digression.

What are you good at? Can you keep it all in your head at once? Or, can you only focus on a bit of it here and there? And every time you gotta switch [focus on something else], you switch what part of the whole you're paying attention to? You still know how it all works, you just can't imagine it all, as one pictures, with every single little flashing detail, all at once? Ya? Same thing. There are certainly limits on what of yourself you can influence - I doubt I could turn all the hair on my body pink without years of extreme focus and experimentation. But the point is, most people don't control themselves for sparkles, they certainly don't check the validity of their thoughts at more than a superficial level, and the best thing they can do with their emotions is force them into a predictable [though most likely unproductive] pattern.


See above. And my apologies if I'm misreading you, but there is a very common occurrence in my socializing which I find it best to avoid. So, gotta warn ya now, as I hate wasting time more than anything else: I'm not interested in peeing contests. You can agree with me, you can disagree with me, but I'm intolerant of meddling and belittling for the sake of ego. You can ignore me. I can leave. Both these things are more productive to me than splitting hairs. And, again, my apologies if I'm misreading you, but why would I care if you want to swing your ego around rather than develop a productive, strong community? World's a big flashing place, I got alot a options.
Patriarch
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Patriarch »

Ha, I think I found the culprit: it was the word c-u-m within "doc-u-mentary". That. Was a tremendous waste of my time.
User avatar
Russell Parr
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:44 am

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Russell Parr »

Patriarch wrote:You may want to consider your manners; some people are worth your time. Of course, others aren't, and it's best to ignore them; personally, I like proving they are fools before doing so - hopefully inspiring them to.. what's the politest way of saying this? Shut their ignorant, meddlesome mouths? You decide.

Now, out of patience and good-will, I'm going to tolerate a censor bot that I would have no idea existed [as I've just arrived] unless it interfered with me. I'm sure you thought of that though; this is a "genius forum", after all. Please be patient with my thoughtless, empty, loud-mouthed mistakes: I seek nothing but your approval.
Yes, I spoke too soon. At least you got a rise out of it!

No excuses, please forgive my interruption.

I assume your next post was addressed towards me.
Patriarch wrote:Sit someone down with nothing else to distract them, and they're likely to adopt it quickly -even instinctively- but the problem at that point is, as just mentioned, building themselves incorrectly. Ya, big issue. But add a guide? I theorize most people would be capable of it, but I wouldn't know: I've never had a batch of students. Certainly a far better investment than most of what Academia sparkles out. Ever notice in docmentaries with tribes, out in the middle of no where, with little contact with people, how they behave? Course, I've personally seen one or two of those tribes drugged up and mean, but they had more contact.


Details, details. Anyone can find fault in anything, but who can make it work? Save us both alot of time if you figure out what I mean rather than looking for problems that I created through negligence in outlining every little thing - only so much time in a day. Recall those masters of various eastern religions being so enigmatic? This is the reason; it's filters out very specific types of people. Much like the "Mu", which is an absolutely fascinating, and frankly high-genius form of social-engineering. Digression.

What are you good at? Can you keep it all in your head at once? Or, can you only focus on a bit of it here and there? And every time you gotta switch [focus on something else], you switch what part of the whole you're paying attention to? You still know how it all works, you just can't imagine it all, as one pictures, with every single little flashing detail, all at once? Ya? Same thing. There are certainly limits on what of yourself you can influence - I doubt I could turn all the hair on my body pink without years of extreme focus and experimentation. But the point is, most people don't control themselves for sparkles, they certainly don't check the validity of their thoughts at more than a superficial level, and the best thing they can do with their emotions is force them into a predictable [though most likely unproductive] pattern.


See above. And my apologies if I'm misreading you, but there is a very common occurrence in my socializing which I find it best to avoid. So, gotta warn ya now, as I hate wasting time more than anything else: I'm not interested in peeing contests. You can agree with me, you can disagree with me, but I'm intolerant of meddling and belittling for the sake of ego. You can ignore me. I can leave. Both these things are more productive to me than splitting hairs. And, again, my apologies if I'm misreading you, but why would I care if you want to swing your ego around rather than develop a productive, strong community? World's a big flashing place, I got alot a options.
I can assure you, I don't seek to waste anyone's time.

Other than that, and forgive me again, but I am really not sure where to begin in responding to this, if you are indeed looking for a response. It seems almost rhetorical.
Patriarch
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Patriarch »

Russell wrote:
Patriarch wrote: Yes, I spoke too soon. At least you got a rise out of it!

No excuses, please forgive my interruption.

I assume your next post was addressed towards me.

Other than that, and forgive me again, but I am really not sure where to begin in responding to this, if you are indeed looking for a response. It seems almost rhetorical.
You'll find that some people only accept apologies if you clearly outline the motives and methods of your mistake - proving you have grown enough to be worth their time and attention. But no, the second section, and the second half of the first, were responses to the person with the bird picture. As I've clarified: I did not reedit out of impatience for my first responses. I was certain you could follow.
User avatar
Russell Parr
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:44 am

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Russell Parr »

Patriarch wrote:You'll find that some people only accept apologies if you clearly outline the motives and methods of your mistake - proving you have grown enough to be worth their time and attention.
Even after the name calling and insults? If I must.. I had mistaken you for someone that would give up on the forum rather quickly, something not entirely uncommon around here. I confess that I didn't have a lot of hope after reading your first post. Was I too quick to judge? It appears so, at least to some degree. For what it's worth, I genuinely thought there was no censor bot, having never encountered it.
But no, the second section, and the second half of the first, were responses to the person with the bird picture. As I've clarified: I did not reedit out of impatience for my first responses. I was certain you could follow.
Point taken. I find using the preview button useful in figuring out how to use the codes, it does take a little getting used to.
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Patriarch wrote:Ha, I think I found the culprit: it was the word c-u-m within "doc-u-mentary". That. Was a tremendous waste of my time.
Yes, the anti-spam measures are quite strict on this forum for posters the first 24 hours after signing up but then again, the amount of spam accounts signing up is pretty high too. Without such filters there'd be a dozen a day signing up and posting spam! The world is a mad place. But there's no filter or censor otherwise to my knowing. I'm sorry if the system somehow didn't explain the reason of the restrictions better.

Let me make it clear the goal here is not to have some "productive, strong community". It's a forum that probably peaked in the past in terms of participation, never was much of a "community" but more like a collage of ego contests, female parading, challenges, insults, madness, poetry, dumbness and brilliance. There are nowadays weeks without any posts and whole topics remain unanswered. The reason I tell you this is to prevent needless disappointment and really nobody wants to waste your time, least of all me! I'l have to find some time to read and reply on your last post, in case you decide to hang around.
Patriarch
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Patriarch »

My fucking god; two people capable of attempting apology. This. This is a special place - and I wish I was being sarcastic.


Russell,

And what was lacking in the first post?


Diebert,

Well, that anyone can even admit to that being the condition [which most forums, especially those claiming quality of character, possess] is a good sign; and there's a sever deficiency of quality people wherever you are.

I'd repost the whole thing in a useful format, but I don't know if that would incur mod wrath, so I'll just give a outline.


Italicized section and last paragraph are general.

Starting below italicized section: 1st and 2nd paragraph respond to first question.

3rd and 4th sections respond to second.

5th to 3rd.
User avatar
ardy
Posts: 341
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:44 am

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by ardy »

"Enlightenment" is simple: it's self-awareness. Few people understand that concept of "self-awareness", however, so let me sum it up. Think of something you know. Be it your job, some hobby, whatever; doesn't matter, as long as you know the subject in and out - you've "mastered" it. When you're doing the activity, you've got all the facts and details in your head, you think about all the pieces, how they fit together, how you can move them. When you get really, really good at something, you stop thinking about it because it's instinctual, it's habit.
Patriarch: I am surprised that others have not questioned your understanding of enlightenment as many here have done work in that area. The basic rule about any description of it is that you cannot speak one word about it, as soon as you open your mouth you are wrong. In fact many who have done work in this area will tell you that you hit a point where you cannot even open your mouth.

Your description could equally apply to many great men of the past who mastered themselves and then lived instinctively from that point. Socrates, Julius Caesar are a couple of examples that jump to mind.

There is little that I or anyone here can offer you in terms of seeing it better and you seem limited in your understanding like the rest of us. I have been through your thinking about the 'logic' of enlightenment and the simplicity of it and it is a dead end. We are all too full of ourselves to recognise this fundamental part of us.
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

ardy wrote:There is little that I or anyone here can offer you and you seem limited in your understanding like the rest of us. I have been through your thinking about the 'logic' of enlightenment and the simplicity of it and it is a dead end. We are all too full of ourselves to recognise this fundamental part of us.
Hail to the Wizard of Ozardy, king of the Genius Realm, making his firm declarations, suggesting unspeakable nonsense is as deep as unspeakable enlightenment and hence it all must be true or at least pointless! Hail to the Master of Light, he who wants to tell you all but will invoke silence when challenged, protected by his mighty Legions of the Unspeakable. Oh, if only the Mighty One would have realized that before He spoke his First Word!
User avatar
ardy
Posts: 341
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:44 am

Re: An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?

Post by ardy »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
ardy wrote:There is little that I or anyone here can offer you and you seem limited in your understanding like the rest of us. I have been through your thinking about the 'logic' of enlightenment and the simplicity of it and it is a dead end. We are all too full of ourselves to recognise this fundamental part of us.
Hail to the Wizard of Ozardy, king of the Genius Realm, making his firm declarations, suggesting unspeakable nonsense is as deep as unspeakable enlightenment and hence it all must be true or at least pointless! Hail to the Master of Light, he who wants to tell you all but will invoke silence when challenged, protected by his mighty Legions of the Unspeakable. Oh, if only the Mighty One would have realized that before He spoke his First Word!
Thanks DvR - I most probably earned that but that does not make you right or me wrong. I have never claimed any particular attainment or even deep understanding as you should know if you read any of my posts about my history.

Can you point out what is wrong in what I wrote (apart from the arrogant assumptions)? If you are upset by my assumption that there is nobody here with anything but limited understanding, then I can understand that, but that is my perception of the people I read and that is also true for all unenlightened people on the planet.

There are people here that have done a lot of work and have a some understanding (If there was not I would not come here) but not one person here can say anything about enlightenment that is worthwhile.

Now if you feel differently please let me know? and it doesn't need a lot of space or 14,000 philosophical statements to discuss this...BTW if you have challenged me in the past I must have missed it! I normally don't walk away from challenges about this stuff.....
Locked