What do you think the ego is?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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ardy
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What do you think the ego is?

Post by ardy »

I have been giving this some thought recently and it has left me wondering. We all know it as the voice in your head (at least in a forum like this one) and the driver that is attempting to take over your life.

Shakespeare described its function so well in Hamlet:
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.
What I am struggling with is what its real/natural function is, does it die as part of enlightenment and what the hell is it.
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Cahoot
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Cahoot »

Good question Ardy, how ya doin?

Coming at it from a different angle, of what use is another’s ego, to you?

If you don't mind a bit of reading, it’s like …

Consciousness is pure light, everywhere all at once and thus sourceless. This light reveals no shadow, thus no differentiation. Think of awareness suspended in space with a uniformly dense fog cloud all around that is uniformly lighted from an unidentified source. No shadows anywhere. This fog cloud is consciousness.

Then you enter a large and opaque bubble through which the light of consciousness does not glow, however it is covered with tiny stained-glass windows. Many windows, an uncountable number, in all directions all at once. The fog outside of the opaque bubble lights up the windows and while the windows are all different shapes and sizes, they all allow the light to pass through. And because the light is passing through stained glass, the glass glows.

Thus, the pure light is consciousness, the darkness is the void and the stained-glass portals through which consciousness glowingly passes are life.

The portals are all different, though some are similar to one another. The similarities are why one group is differentiated as human, another group as cow, or another group as cute bunny rabbits.

The human portals have additional details to differentiate them from one another. Some of these details in the stained glass are called ego, and through them the light glows in various ways.

Thus in the allegory, the purpose of an ego housed within life, like a detail in a stained-glass window, a window made visible by glowing consciousness, is to make that ego distinguishable.

Why?

So that the ego perceiving ego can arrange all the egos around in glowing lighting arrangements that enhance the ego’s lifestyle, which is defined by the ego’s needs and conditioning.

The ego is the self in self-cherishing that facilitates functioning, but it is not the real Self.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

ardy wrote:I have been giving this some thought recently and it has left me wondering. We all know it as the voice in your head (at least in a forum like this one) and the driver that is attempting to take over your life.
Hmm, I never heard any voice in my head, not even my own. Only while doing drugs. But that's perhaps as I think in pictures and non-verbal concepts.

But to answer your question, from the psychological angle the ego function creates some kind of model, like a doll, to be able to interact socially and with the demands of life. Like a complex dashboard in a car. To function it has to imagine an abstract being something, somewhere, reacting and contemplating in terms of object and subject, me and thou.

Spirituality is the force which questions this rather automated function of assuming the model is actually existing somewhere in place and time. Because only within exchange and interaction it keeps reappearing, like during a board game a player appears as part of the game rules or like a ghost might appear in some spooky setting and open minds. The spiritual teaching is to not get overly attached to such phantoms. However trying to "eradicate" it would be another mistaken game and usually with disabling effects too. What is being called for is understanding, the end if ignorance and not the end of any ego, self or world. Simply because they didn't have any clear beginning or existence either.
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

ardy wrote:I have been giving this some thought recently and it has left me wondering. We all know it as the voice in your head (at least in a forum like this one) and the driver that is attempting to take over your life.

Shakespeare described its function so well in Hamlet:
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.
What I am struggling with is what its real/natural function is, does it die as part of enlightenment and what the hell is it.
"At least in a forum like this one" So there are forums out there that noone has an ego? Not even mods? Cool!

Ah, the word function. Well our fingers have a function to hold tools, keep us safe. But that's an emergent property. If we didn't have fingers, we'd have some other thing to keep us safe, or we wouldn't exist. If we didnt exist we wouldnt be here to care about it. Think of all the infinite creatures that could but dont exist right now, and thank goodness for it.
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Bobo
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Bobo »

I will try to give an example of what I think it is, take the idea of omniscience, part of the idea would involve the ablity to predict the future, and that would include other ideas as well as prophecies and clairvoyance. If we take a position that knowledge is limited, or that no one is demonstrably omniscient, the ego would be something that would fall on this category of being ominiscient or something that is partially supported by the idea.

Besides that one could also derive from it a faculty that goes against the ego that can be exercised and put into practice by analyzing thoughts and perceptions. From a proposition that is deemed contraditory (ominiscience) we gather a theory and practices that identify and combat the ego. It is as if a tool were being used to identify and combat the ego, so one could see this process of ego elimination as something absolute (as the elimination of one idea) or not (as it must be applied to all thoughts).

Mmmm, the idea of eliminating the process of elimination itself, may be another tool?
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Bobo wrote:I will try to give an example of what I think it is, take the idea of omniscience, part of the idea would involve the ablity to predict the future, and that would include other ideas as well as prophecies and clairvoyance. If we take a position that knowledge is limited, or that no one is demonstrably omniscient, the ego would be something that would fall on this category of being ominiscient or something that is partially supported by the idea.

Besides that one could also derive from it a faculty that goes against the ego that can be exercised and put into practice by analyzing thoughts and perceptions. From a proposition that is deemed contraditory (ominiscience) we gather a theory and practices that identify and combat the ego. It is as if a tool were being used to identify and combat the ego, so one could see this process of ego elimination as something absolute (as the elimination of one idea) or not (as it must be applied to all thoughts).

Mmmm, the idea of eliminating the process of elimination itself, may be another tool?
I too believe that the ego can predict the future, easily in dreams. The resting state is the most powerful, creative state, and the sitting on the computer state is arguably the weakest state.
The ego is so powerful, that it can also possess and explore other sentient consciousnesses, in what you call the real world.
It is also so powerful as to send telepathic thoughts to other sentient consciousnesses, in what you call, real time.
The ego must be fed, from time to time, and it is fun to worship it, but don't get so carried away that you lose your sense of direction. Be no respecter of persons. That includes your own family, your idols, and even your teachers. Respect your teachers, give them the time of day, but do not respect them.
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Bobo
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Bobo »

These are great examples of the ego, thanks. But I don't believe that the ego can predict the future. Predicting the future is not enough, it must be shown how it is done and is appliable to other cases something that the ego will fail to do, otherwise it is just another guess, a guess can be used to demonstrate mastery over a subject you don't need a prediction for that.

We get impressions from other people, maybe there's another clue for the ego in here, huh?
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Bobo wrote:These are great examples of the ego, thanks. But I don't believe that the ego can predict the future. Predicting the future is not enough, it must be shown how it is done and is appliable to other cases something that the ego will fail to do, otherwise it is just another guess, a guess can be used to demonstrate mastery over a subject you don't need a prediction for that.

We get impressions from other people, maybe there's another clue for the ego in here, huh?
Empirically speaking, yes, you can't choose when you want to see the future, it has to happen, and you only know it's a prophecy once it comes true. But after enough time, you develop the sense to sense what prophecies have weight, and which don't. For example, I knew an atheistic, godless man, who woke up one day after a powerful dream that his aunt died. Sure enough she died that morning.

I doubt such a device would humor making a long-term, weighted prophecy just to appease a doubting world's whims.

Ego in here? In you, or a kind of super ego floating in the forums?

Are the forums...alive?
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Atri
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Atri »

ardy wrote:What I am struggling with is what its real/natural function is, does it die as part of enlightenment and what the hell is it.
Easiest to explain by analogy of the dream. So in a dream which is actually created solely by your mind, you still occupy a body which is separate from the dream universe, you still see yourself as the body separate from the dream universe and work towards its betterment and preservation. All the while the whole of dream universe and its characters were just you.

Something akin to this is happening in the "real" world wherein consciousness is seemingly divided among various avatars, all these are struggling and fighting.

It does not disappear with enlightenment but you gain a firm understanding of what it is and what you are.
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ardy
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by ardy »

Hi Atri: Funny you should say
It does not disappear with enlightenment but you gain a firm understanding of what it is and what you are.
I always assumed the ego death was a part of enlightenment. Certainly there are many examples ie Jesus where his ego death seems to have happened in the 40days+4-nights. There is also a lot spoken about the idea of dying as the last gate before enlightenment.
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ardy
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by ardy »

Cahoot wrote:Good question Ardy, how ya doin?

Coming at it from a different angle, of what use is another’s ego, to you?

If you don't mind a bit of reading, it’s like …

Consciousness is pure light, everywhere all at once and thus sourceless. This light reveals no shadow, thus no differentiation. Think of awareness suspended in space with a uniformly dense fog cloud all around that is uniformly lighted from an unidentified source. No shadows anywhere. This fog cloud is consciousness.

Then you enter a large and opaque bubble through which the light of consciousness does not glow, however it is covered with tiny stained-glass windows. Many windows, an uncountable number, in all directions all at once. The fog outside of the opaque bubble lights up the windows and while the windows are all different shapes and sizes, they all allow the light to pass through. And because the light is passing through stained glass, the glass glows.

Thus, the pure light is consciousness, the darkness is the void and the stained-glass portals through which consciousness glowingly passes are life.

The portals are all different, though some are similar to one another. The similarities are why one group is differentiated as human, another group as cow, or another group as cute bunny rabbits.

The human portals have additional details to differentiate them from one another. Some of these details in the stained glass are called ego, and through them the light glows in various ways.

Thus in the allegory, the purpose of an ego housed within life, like a detail in a stained-glass window, a window made visible by glowing consciousness, is to make that ego distinguishable.

Why?

So that the ego perceiving ego can arrange all the egos around in glowing lighting arrangements that enhance the ego’s lifestyle, which is defined by the ego’s needs and conditioning.

The ego is the self in self-cherishing that facilitates functioning, but it is not the real Self.

I'm doing fine Cahoot: Off to Bali today for 10 days diving but I will try to stay up with this thread.
I find your analogy struck a bell of recognition within me from my time of deep meditation a few years ago. Certainly the large insight I experienced at the time seemed multifaceted and all encompassing of which I was the most minute piece, but encompassed all at the same time. Strange but wonderful.
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

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When ego quiets down, takes a sabbatical or permanent leave, the body floods with energy that ups the amperage of everything. Less sleep, less food, greater calm, self-control and peace.

Why does ego exist?

Ego can be discarded when it obstructs survival of the body, which is why people can eat bugs when they must, but otherwise don’t.

Example: The ego of a 110-pound woman knows she can’t lift a car, but when lifting a car becomes the only option, survival discards ego (along with rationality and what she knows of causality). In lifting the car and redefining what is known of physical laws, the 110-pound woman is no longer bound by the limitations of that ego identity, at least while she is straining in the lift.

Ego can also function as a survival mechanism because without it to limit her actions, the 110-pound woman would have thrown out her back out a long time ago lifting heavy stuff.

That kind of strength comes from a sudden energy surge. I once picked up a half-wild scared kitten that couldn’t have weighed more than a pound. I thought I could control it with a good grip on the scruff of the neck. It turned into an egoless piece of steel with claws moving at warp speed. I was lucky to get away with just minor scars.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Cahoot, ego when seen that way is really just another survival mechanism. The question is really what the perceived threat is (like the stress examined in Buddhism?). Being with or without ego, both remain "natural" states, the energy just goes to different things, dealing with different level of threats or promises.

The question overarching this is of course what's real, what's worthy, what's wise and what's ignorance. Animals do not care and just as easily run into the abyss of stupidity, highly energized and amped us as they might be,,,
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Cahoot wrote:When ego quiets down, takes a sabbatical or permanent leave, the body floods with energy that ups the amperage of everything. Less sleep, less food, greater calm, self-control and peace.

Why does ego exist?

Ego can be discarded when it obstructs survival of the body, which is why people can eat bugs when they must, but otherwise don’t.

Example: The ego of a 110-pound woman knows she can’t lift a car, but when lifting a car becomes the only option, survival discards ego (along with rationality and what she knows of causality). In lifting the car and redefining what is known of physical laws, the 110-pound woman is no longer bound by the limitations of that ego identity, at least while she is straining in the lift.

Ego can also function as a survival mechanism because without it to limit her actions, the 110-pound woman would have thrown out her back out a long time ago lifting heavy stuff.

That kind of strength comes from a sudden energy surge. I once picked up a half-wild scared kitten that couldn’t have weighed more than a pound. I thought I could control it with a good grip on the scruff of the neck. It turned into an egoless piece of steel with claws moving at warp speed. I was lucky to get away with just minor scars.
I fear that your definition may be self-defeating.

You say its absence provides peace, calm, and tranquility. Then you describe an ego-less cat, who has the strength and viciousness of a feral tiger.

Perhaps what you are saying, is that to the cat, and to someone with a quieted ego, viciousness and ferality provides them the same peace, calm and tranquility as most anything else.
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Cahoot
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Cahoot »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Cahoot, ego when seen that way is really just another survival mechanism. The question is really what the perceived threat is (like the stress examined in Buddhism?). Being with or without ego, both remain "natural" states, the energy just goes to different things, dealing with different level of threats or promises.

The question overarching this is of course what's real, what's worthy, what's wise and what's ignorance. Animals do not care and just as easily run into the abyss of stupidity, highly energized and amped us as they might be,,,
I wouldn't make light of the word "just." Survival is the hokey-pokey for the species, that's what it's all about.
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Cahoot
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Cahoot »

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Cahoot wrote:When ego quiets down, takes a sabbatical or permanent leave, the body floods with energy that ups the amperage of everything. Less sleep, less food, greater calm, self-control and peace.

Why does ego exist?

Ego can be discarded when it obstructs survival of the body, which is why people can eat bugs when they must, but otherwise don’t.

Example: The ego of a 110-pound woman knows she can’t lift a car, but when lifting a car becomes the only option, survival discards ego (along with rationality and what she knows of causality). In lifting the car and redefining what is known of physical laws, the 110-pound woman is no longer bound by the limitations of that ego identity, at least while she is straining in the lift.

Ego can also function as a survival mechanism because without it to limit her actions, the 110-pound woman would have thrown out her back out a long time ago lifting heavy stuff.

That kind of strength comes from a sudden energy surge. I once picked up a half-wild scared kitten that couldn’t have weighed more than a pound. I thought I could control it with a good grip on the scruff of the neck. It turned into an egoless piece of steel with claws moving at warp speed. I was lucky to get away with just minor scars.
I fear that your definition may be self-defeating.

You say its absence provides peace, calm, and tranquility. Then you describe an ego-less cat, who has the strength and viciousness of a feral tiger.

Perhaps what you are saying, is that to the cat, and to someone with a quieted ego, viciousness and ferality provides them the same peace, calm and tranquility as most anything else.
No, not when you look past the surface.
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Cahoot
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Cahoot »

Survival is the hokey-pokey for ego, too.
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Bobo »

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:Ego in here? In you, or a kind of super ego floating in the forums?
That would be fun but no, I mean that we get impression from other people and appearances don't necessarily equate to facts, being impressed or the will to impress people may come from the ego.
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Hmm, I never heard any voice in my head, not even my own. Only while doing drugs. But that's perhaps as I think in pictures and non-verbal concepts.
It's like talking or reading, people learn to read talking in a loud voice and the parts of the brain that are are responsible for it never goes out. There must be some research on it as it must not be difficult to see it on a brain scan. So how do you think exactly, if you were to do something do you picture yourself doing the thing instead of thinking "I should to this thing next"?
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Cahoot
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Cahoot »

Cahoot wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Cahoot wrote:When ego quiets down, takes a sabbatical or permanent leave, the body floods with energy that ups the amperage of everything. Less sleep, less food, greater calm, self-control and peace.

Why does ego exist?

Ego can be discarded when it obstructs survival of the body, which is why people can eat bugs when they must, but otherwise don’t.

Example: The ego of a 110-pound woman knows she can’t lift a car, but when lifting a car becomes the only option, survival discards ego (along with rationality and what she knows of causality). In lifting the car and redefining what is known of physical laws, the 110-pound woman is no longer bound by the limitations of that ego identity, at least while she is straining in the lift.

Ego can also function as a survival mechanism because without it to limit her actions, the 110-pound woman would have thrown out her back out a long time ago lifting heavy stuff.

That kind of strength comes from a sudden energy surge. I once picked up a half-wild scared kitten that couldn’t have weighed more than a pound. I thought I could control it with a good grip on the scruff of the neck. It turned into an egoless piece of steel with claws moving at warp speed. I was lucky to get away with just minor scars.
I fear that your definition may be self-defeating.

You say its absence provides peace, calm, and tranquility. Then you describe an ego-less cat, who has the strength and viciousness of a feral tiger.

Perhaps what you are saying, is that to the cat, and to someone with a quieted ego, viciousness and ferality provides them the same peace, calm and tranquility as most anything else.
No, not when you look past the surface.
Ignoring the woman imperils understanding, like ignoring reality imperils meaning.
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ardy
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by ardy »

Cahoot wrote:
Cahoot wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Cahoot wrote:When ego quiets down, takes a sabbatical or permanent leave, the body floods with energy that ups the amperage of everything. Less sleep, less food, greater calm, self-control and peace.

Why does ego exist?

Ego can be discarded when it obstructs survival of the body, which is why people can eat bugs when they must, but otherwise don’t.

Example: The ego of a 110-pound woman knows she can’t lift a car, but when lifting a car becomes the only option, survival discards ego (along with rationality and what she knows of causality). In lifting the car and redefining what is known of physical laws, the 110-pound woman is no longer bound by the limitations of that ego identity, at least while she is straining in the lift.

Ego can also function as a survival mechanism because without it to limit her actions, the 110-pound woman would have thrown out her back out a long time ago lifting heavy stuff.

That kind of strength comes from a sudden energy surge. I once picked up a half-wild scared kitten that couldn’t have weighed more than a pound. I thought I could control it with a good grip on the scruff of the neck. It turned into an egoless piece of steel with claws moving at warp speed. I was lucky to get away with just minor scars.
I fear that your definition may be self-defeating.

You say its absence provides peace, calm, and tranquility. Then you describe an ego-less cat, who has the strength and viciousness of a feral tiger.

Perhaps what you are saying, is that to the cat, and to someone with a quieted ego, viciousness and ferality provides them the same peace, calm and tranquility as most anything else.
No, not when you look past the surface.
Ignoring the woman imperils understanding, like ignoring reality imperils meaning.
Ignoring a woman can be imperilling, ignoring reality kills understanding.

regards to all from a warm and pleasant Bali
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Tomas
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Tomas »

[quote="ardy"]quote]

Its a free country and I'm within my rights.
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by Pam Seeback »

ardy: What I am struggling with is what its real/natural function is, does it die as part of enlightenment and what the hell is it.
In order to answer that question, one must be awake to the truth that attachment to form is the false reality. Once awakened to this truth, it becomes clear that the aspect or principle of consciousness that keeps this false view of reality alive is the ego. There is a saying that ego stands for "edging God out" which fits when one understands that God (and man of his/its image) is infinite spirit. Logic of wisdom tells us infinite spirit is attachment-free.

Logic also tells us that if ego is the principle of false view of attachment to form, ego is extinguished when attachment to form is extinguished.
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ardy
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by ardy »

Cahoot:
I once picked up a half-wild scared kitten that couldn’t have weighed more than a pound. I thought I could control it with a good grip on the scruff of the neck. It turned into an egoless piece of steel with claws moving at warp speed. I was lucky to get away with just minor scars.

You should have picked up a large sharp knife and said "If anyone can mention one word of Zen I will save this cat. If not I will cut it in half before it scratches my hand off"

I think its been done before but such an opportunity should not be missed!
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ardy
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by ardy »

movingalways wrote:
ardy: What I am struggling with is what its real/natural function is, does it die as part of enlightenment and what the hell is it.
In order to answer that question, one must be awake to the truth that attachment to form is the false reality. Once awakened to this truth, it becomes clear that the aspect or principle of consciousness that keeps this false view of reality alive is the ego. There is a saying that ego stands for "edging God out" which fits when one understands that God (and man of his/its image) is infinite spirit. Logic of wisdom tells us infinite spirit is attachment-free.

Logic also tells us that if ego is the principle of false view of attachment to form, ego is extinguished when attachment to form is extinguished.
MA: If form is your perception of reality and reality just exists. When you slap your hand on a table is that reality or just your form of reality?
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ardy
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Re: What do you think the ego is?

Post by ardy »

Tomas wrote:
ardy wrote:quote]

Its a free country and I'm within my rights.
tomas you are too smart for me. Nothing new there!
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