Jiddu Krishnamurti's answer on the process of his mind

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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lopatamd
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Jiddu Krishnamurti's answer on the process of his mind

Post by lopatamd »

Question: Will you please explain the process of your mind when you are actually speaking here. If you have not gathered knowledge, and if you have no store of experience and memory, from where do you get your wisdom? How do you manage to cultivate it? (Pause)

Krishnamurti: I am hesitating because I have not seen the questions before. I shall answer spontaneously, so you also will have to follow spontaneously and not think along traditional lines. The question, then, is how my mind works, and how I have gathered wisdom. "If you have no store of experience and memory, from where do you get your wisdom? How do you manage to cultivate it?" First of all, how do you know that what I am saying is wisdom? (Laughter) Sirs, do not laugh. It is easy to laugh and pass it by. How do you know that what I am saying is true? By what measurement, by what yardstick do you measure? Is there a measurement for wisdom? Can you say this is wisdom and that is not? Is sensation wisdom, or is the response to sensation wisdom? Sir, you do not know what wisdom is; therefore, you cannot say I am speaking wisdom. Wisdom is not that which you experience, nor is it to be found in a book. Wisdom is not something that you can experience at all, that you can gather, accumulate. On the contrary, wisdom is a state of being in which there is no accumulation of any kind; you cannot gather wisdom.
The questioner wants to know how my mind works. If I may go into it a little, I will show you. There is no center from which it is acting, there is no memory from which it is responding. There is memory of the road which I took just now, of the road where I live, there is the recognition of people, of incidents, but there is no accumulating process, no mechanical process of gradual gathering, from which comes response. If I did not know the usage of English or some other language, I would not be able to speak. Communication on the verbal level is necessary in order to understand each other, but it is what is said, how it is said, from where it is said, that is important. Now, when a question is put, if the answer is the response of a mind which has accumulated experiences and memories, then it is merely reaction, and therefore it is not reasoning; but when there is no accumulation, which means no response, then there is no frustration, no effort, no struggle. The accumulating process, the accumulating center, is like a deep-rooted tree in a stream which gathers debris around itself, and thought, sitting on the top of that tree, imagines it is thinking, living. Such a mind is only accumulating, and the mind which accumulates - whether knowledge, money, or experience - is obviously not living. It is only when the mind moves, flows, that there is living.
The questioner wants to know how wisdom is come by, and how to cultivate it. You cannot cultivate wisdom; you can cultivate knowledge, information, but you cannot cultivate wisdom because wisdom is not a thing that can be accumulated. The moment you begin to accumulate, it becomes mere information, knowledge, which is not wisdom. The entity that cultivates wisdom is still part of thought, and thought is merely a response, a reaction to challenge. Therefore, thought is merely the accumulation of memory, of experience, of knowledge, and so thought can never find wisdom. Only when there is a cessation of thinking is there wisdom, and there can be cessation of thinking only when there is an end to the process of accumulation - which is the recognition of the 'me' and the 'mine'. While the mind functions within the field of 'me' and the 'mine', which is merely reaction, there cannot be wisdom. Wisdom is a state of spontaneity which has no center, which has no accumulating entity. As I am talking, I am aware of the words I am using, but I am not reacting from a center to the question. To find out the truth of a question, of a problem, the process of thinking - which is mechanical and which we know - must come to an end. Therefore, it means there must be complete inward silence, and then only will you know that creativeness which is not mechanical, which is not merely reaction. So, silence is the beginning of wisdom. Look, sirs, it is fairly simple. When you have a problem, your first response is to think about it, to resist it, to deny it, to accept it, or to explain it away, is it not? Watch yourself and you will see. Take any problem that arises, and you will see that the immediate response is to resist or to accept it; or, if you do not do either of those things, you justify it, or you explain it away. So, when a question is asked, your mind is immediately set into motion; like a machine, it immediately responds. But if you will solve the problem, the immediate response is silence, not thinking. When this question was asked, my response was silence, complete silence, and being silent, I saw immediately that where there is accumulation, there cannot be wisdom. Wisdom is spontaneity, and there can be no spontaneity or freedom as long as there is accumulation as knowledge, memory. So, a man of experience can never be a wise man nor a simple man, but the man who is free from the process of accumulation is wise; he knows what silence is, and whatever comes from that silence is true. That silence is not a thing to be cultivated; it has no means, there is no path to it, there is no "how." To ask "how" means cultivating; it is merely a reaction, a response of the desire to accumulate silence. But when you understand the whole process of accumulating, which is the process of thinking, then you will know that silence from which springs action which is not reaction, and one can live in that silence all the time; it is not a gift, a capacity - it has nothing to do with capacity. It comes into being only when you closely observe every reaction, every thought, every feeling; when you are aware of the fact without explanation, without resistance, without acceptance or justification; and when you see the fact very clearly without intervening blocks and screens, then the very perception of the fact dissolves the fact, and the mind is quiet. It is only when the mind is very quiet, not making an effort to be quiet, that it is free. Sir, it is only the free mind that is wise, and to be free the mind must be silent.



That's actually a very rare gem to find in those meetings, it's rarely when he goes personally and speaks about himself.
Anyways it's useless to ask others if they 'are at his level' because the moment you say you are free of ego/self you are no longer free from it.
But still, i wonder how many of us actually have the capacity to go through this and actually be serious enough to work on ourselves to completely understand us and drop our 'selves', not partially but completely.

Also as he mentioned, it is completely possible to be in that 'silent' state of mind All the time. I noticed a lot of resistance on my part after hearing that bold statement.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti's answer on the process of his mind

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Hellopatamd,
Krishnamurti wrote: So, a man of experience can never be a wise man nor a simple man, but the man who is free from the process of accumulation is wise; he knows what silence is, and whatever comes from that silence is true. That silence is not a thing to be cultivated; it has no means, there is no path to it...
But is then a simple man, who is not capable of accumulating much, or the simpleton, who doesn't do such thing at all, a guaranteed persuer of wisdom? It's perhaps a wiser perspective to see human birth already as major accumulation, of attachments, of needs, of dependencies. Then the process of learning starts, to fulfill the needs, to maintain and then perhaps some space and time to reflect, to let go and gain wisdom, not just by becoming empty but also have the means for "proper" thought, right action and so on.

Krishnamurti himself of course would agree since he founded several schools centered around proper learning and accumulation.He's right that wisdom cannot be learned or gathered like a trick, guide manual or some degree to achieve. But it's definitely subject to forces of growth and decline in human beings. In that sense it's wrong to maintain it cannot be accumulated because wisdom simply means "knowledge of the way". The way itself lies beyond accumulation but understanding and realization of such definitely not. Otherwise it would be meaningless to teach or share anything about it! Thus I oppose the conflation of wisdom and way (tao), just like his definition of intelligence is only partly helpful and confusing to many, if not simply deceptive. It's important to reach for internal opposition here instead of going with some famous bloke's constructs. The healthy mind demands it!
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Cahoot
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti's answer on the process of his mind

Post by Cahoot »

dvr wrote:But is then a simple man, who is not capable of accumulating much, or the simpleton, who doesn't do such thing at all, a guaranteed persuer of wisdom?

According to Krishnamurti, if such a man is also free of the process of accumulation, then he is wise.

One who is not capable of accumulating much is not necessarily free of the process of accumulation. A man may lack the capacity to accumulate money but can still be chained to the process of accumulating money, whether he earns it or is on the dole.

Also, to say that one is wise does not imply that the wise one pursues wisdom.
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti's answer on the process of his mind

Post by Pam Seeback »

Krishnamurti: I am hesitating because I have not seen the questions before. I shall answer spontaneously, so you also will have to follow spontaneously and not think along traditional lines.
It is impossible not to think spontaneously regardless of the subject matter. Once the truth of the spontaneous nature of thought as a totality is realized, one can then move on to exploring the nature of thought and its effects on consciousness.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti's answer on the process of his mind

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Cahoot wrote:
dvr wrote:But is then a simple man, who is not capable of accumulating much, or the simpleton, who doesn't do such thing at all, a guaranteed persuer of wisdom?

According to Krishnamurti, if such a man is also free of the process of accumulation, then he is wise.One who is not capable of accumulating much is not necessarily free of the process of accumulation. A man may lack the capacity to accumulate money but can still be chained to the process of accumulating money, whether he earns it or is on the dole.
It's better to first read and then reply. Didn't I write that "it's perhaps a wiser perspective to see human birth already as major accumulation, of attachments, of needs, of dependencies"? In that case it means that such "simple man" would generally be worse off in terms of suffering as he does not have the wits to address all the accumulation already in place, since he's born into a world, as the context he's occurring in. Best effort for him would be to try to forget, for example "not think" or being non-stop intoxicated by for example emotion. Cue the simpleton and his half-wit cousin the idiot.
Also, to say that one is wise does not imply that the wise one pursues wisdom.
Actually, the only thing it ever implies is that wisdom is being perused in everything all the time. What would "being wise" imply otherwise? Because it's not something that can be "gained" permanently, it will have to be a new and renewing orientation, a new and renewing activity or otherwise wisdom will quickly perish. No harm done.
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Cahoot
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti's answer on the process of his mind

Post by Cahoot »

So, a man of experience can never be a wise man nor a simple man, but the man who is free from the process of accumulation is wise; he knows what silence is, and whatever comes from that silence is true. That silence is not a thing to be cultivated; it has no means, there is no path to it...
From the sliver of quote that you extracted from the larger Krishnamurti quote, you would probably have a better chance of understanding his meaning by first determining what Krishnamurti means by the term “man of experience,” and the term “process of accumulation.”

Everyone has experience, so what makes a “man of experience,” different from others who simply have experiences?

What is this process of accumulation he references? What is the beginning of this process … need and/or desire?

Also, a quote from Krishnamurti (who said that truth is a pathless land) about the pursuit of wisdom, to bolster the opinion that he considers wisdom to be a pursuit, would convincingly support that opinion.

Perhaps he meant that truth is a maritime pursuit, rather than a land pursuit? Then the path would be the stars.
JK wrote:It is only when the mind is very quiet, not making an effort to be quiet, that it is free. Sir, it is only the free mind that is wise, and to be free the mind must be silent.
Does a mind that is quiet, free, wise and silent ... pursue wisdom? If it is pursuing wisdom, then wisdom must be a quality that is not quiet, free, wise and silent.
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Cahoot
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti's answer on the process of his mind

Post by Cahoot »

movingalways wrote:
Krishnamurti: I am hesitating because I have not seen the questions before. I shall answer spontaneously, so you also will have to follow spontaneously and not think along traditional lines.
It is impossible not to think spontaneously regardless of the subject matter. Once the truth of the spontaneous nature of thought as a totality is realized, one can then move on to exploring the nature of thought and its effects on consciousness.
I think he just provided a living definition of premeditation, in context. ;)
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti's answer on the process of his mind

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

lopatamd wrote:sirs, it is fairly simple. When you have a problem, your first response is to think about it, to resist it, to deny it, to accept it, or to explain it away, is it not? Watch yourself and you will see. Take any problem that arises, and you will see that the immediate response is to resist or to accept it; or, if you do not do either of those things, you justify it, or you explain it away. So, when a question is asked, your mind is immediately set into motion; like a machine, it immediately responds. But if you will solve the problem, the immediate response is silence, not thinking. When this question was asked, my response was silence, complete silence, and being silent, I saw immediately that where there is accumulation, there cannot be wisdom. Wisdom is spontaneity, and there can be no spontaneity or freedom as long as there is accumulation as knowledge, memory. So, a man of experience can never be a wise man nor a simple man, but the man who is free from the process of accumulation is wise; he knows what silence is, and whatever comes from that silence is true. That silence is not a thing to be cultivated; it has no means, there is no path to it, there is no "how." To ask "how" means cultivating; it is merely a reaction, a response of the desire to accumulate silence. But when you understand the whole process of accumulating, which is the process of thinking, then you will know that silence from which springs action which is not reaction, and one can live in that silence all the time; it is not a gift, a capacity - it has nothing to do with capacity. It comes into being only when you closely observe every reaction, every thought, every feeling; when you are aware of the fact without explanation, without resistance, without acceptance or justification; and when you see the fact very clearly without intervening blocks and screens, then the very perception of the fact dissolves the fact, and the mind is quiet. It is only when the mind is very quiet, not making an effort to be quiet, that it is free. Sir, it is only the free mind that is wise, and to be free the mind must be silent.



That's actually a very rare gem to find in those meetings, it's rarely when he goes personally and speaks about himself.
Anyways it's useless to ask others if they 'are at his level' because the moment you say you are free of ego/self you are no longer free from it.
But still, i wonder how many of us actually have the capacity to go through this and actually be serious enough to work on ourselves to completely understand us and drop our 'selves', not partially but completely.

Also as he mentioned, it is completely possible to be in that 'silent' state of mind All the time. I noticed a lot of resistance on my part after hearing that bold statement.
If only the people on most of the internet and real world would embrace this philosophy. Some times I take the quiet philosophy and apply it to other things, such as not eating. Thus fasting was born.

As for wisdom not being accumulative, he seems a bit contradictory to me. Obviously his mind is not empty, other wise would we be hearing baby-talk oogagalaga? It seems like he describes wisdom as biding and allowing subconscious thought to *ahem* accumulate into a greater whole and avoiding reactionary behavoirs. Never the less, it's a good philosophy. Soft pleasant round of applause from soft gloves.
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti's answer on the process of his mind

Post by Bobo »

Take a simple model from information/data to knowledge/experience to wisdom, that is the bottom-up movement. You have also to consider the top-down movement that goes from wisdom to knowledge/experience to information/data. The bottom-up view says that a man needs knowledge and information to be wise. The top-down view that the wise man doesn't need knowledge or information to be wise.
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