Enlightened Am

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Atri
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Enlightened Am

Post by Atri »

I am the husband of Kunyab. I claim to be enlightened.
This is because there is no confusion in me as to my nature. I am simply the ever unchanging subject and do not take myself to be any object.
This is the difference between enlightened and unenlightened, the unenlightened take themselves to be an object whether physical and mental, when this confusion is removed then enlightenment dawns.
That's what its all about.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Welcome Atri. You are free to claim, to live, to write but are you free to answer and make distinctions?

What would be the difference between your definition of enlightenment and the definition of a depersonalization disorder, according to psychiatry? Or would you suggest they are diagnosing enlightened people?
  • Common descriptions of symptoms from sufferers include feeling disconnected from one's physicality or body, feeling detached from one's own thoughts or emotions, feeling as if one is disconnected from the reality of one's self, and a sense of feeling as if one is dreaming or in a dreamlike state. In some cases, a person may feel an inability to accept their reflection as their own, or they may even have out-of-body experiences
Or do you think these sufferers would experience some state of enlightenment while still experiencing attachment to what's supposedly missing?
Atri
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by Atri »

Diebert,

This is a good question that I have also pondered, the description of enlightenment and this disorder have much in common.

Could it be that the sufferers of this disorder are experiencing "reality" but they simply have no knowledge about it and without context to them it feels as if they are losing their mind?

The difference between the sufferer and the enlightened is this:

In enlightened knowledge precedes experience. He first gets knowledge of Vedanta, of the nature of consciousness and mind/body/world. By steady application of this knowledge his experience also changes and harmonizes with this knowledge.

In the suffererer the experience happened without any knowledge, leaving his mind confused and scared.
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ardy
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by ardy »

Atri - Very interesting and I am pleased you are here as I (same as many here) have posed questions via Kunyab.

My first question is regarding your statement: "I am simply the ever unchanging subject and do not take myself to be any object."
So as a non identifier with your objective self what happens if someone cuts your arm off? Do you observe the event as a subject or an object?
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Welcome Atri. You are free to claim, to live, to write but are you free to answer and make distinctions?

What would be the difference between your definition of enlightenment and the definition of a depersonalization disorder, according to psychiatry? Or would you suggest they are diagnosing enlightened people?
  • Common descriptions of symptoms from sufferers include feeling disconnected from one's physicality or body, feeling detached from one's own thoughts or emotions, feeling as if one is disconnected from the reality of one's self, and a sense of feeling as if one is dreaming or in a dreamlike state. In some cases, a person may feel an inability to accept their reflection as their own, or they may even have out-of-body experiences
Or do you think these sufferers would experience some state of enlightenment while still experiencing attachment to what's supposedly missing?
I too can vouch for this. One time I got so stoned, I thought I was going to die, it felt as my soul was trying to leave my body, and I was struggling to keep my soul from leaving, because it felt if we became separate we would surely die. It was scary, but also exhilarating, strange but at the same time, soothing. My hand eye reflexes became nearly non-existent, I could not stop laughing, I felt so happy it was painful even, I no longer hand any sense of pain or inhibition, in fact I could not even feel my own bladder. The pain only made me laugh more...The actions I did not seem as my own...Even in our split mind the disconnect was extreme...Usually we can regulate and override ourselves, but this one was out of our control...

I would not classify this experience as enlightenment, but looking back, it sure was a lot of fun. But the glossy eye of nostalgia always makes things seem better than what they are...I would not classify such and experience as wholly good or bad, but good in the sense of a learning experience.

Since then I am drug free, no need because I can kind of alter my mind to have similar experiences than any drug can provide.
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Atri
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by Atri »

Hi Ardy,
Glad to be here and discuss with like like minded people such as you.
As for the question, well what is the point of imagining such extreme scenarios and what will happen then. Indeed what will happen is simply karma of the mind and body resolving itself i.e. past flowing into the future.
Being enlightened does not change the law of karma. In the enlightened there is a certain knowledge in the mind which tells you what you are, or more precisely inhibits attaching to false imaginations of what you are, which then leaves you as you are.
Arising of this knowledge is also a play of karma. If the mind and it's knowledge is compromised somehow then enlightenment will too vanish.
As for subject and object all of us are the subject only at all times, and occupy a unique position. Only that we get attached to mental images and concepts and imagine ourselves to be some object or another. Enlightenment is the firm knowledge of you as a subject that can never be objectified.
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ardy
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by ardy »

Hi Atri: That brings up another question regarding part of your post.
i.e. past flowing into the future
.

Now in my world the past has no impact, the present moment is impossible to grasp and the future is unknown. (my twist on the diamond sutra) How do you know that the past is flowing into the future?

Some of your post I do not understand, in terms of the influence of Karma. I think your view of Karma is different to mine, maybe I have not read enough about it as I hold little interest in Karma or reincarnation.

Prajna is not hard to get and anyone who meditates long enough experiences this phenomenon, those who are very sick or dying seem to access a similar thing.

Enlightenment, by what I have read, holds you as neither a subject nor an object but as the basic truth of your existence, giving you access to who you really are. To hold yourself as a subjective being, an observer of the objective world around you seems somewhat dream like to me. In the 10 Ox pictures it ends with this quote:

10. Return to Society
Barefooted and naked of breast,
I mingle with the people of the world.
My clothes are ragged and dust-laden,
and I am ever blissful.
I use no magic to extend my life;
Now, before me, the dead trees
become alive.

Are these dead trees alive for you and are they a subject or an object?
Atri
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by Atri »

ardy wrote:How do you know that the past is flowing into the future?
Based on observation this is how things are karma is nothing but cause and effect.
Last edited by Atri on Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Atri
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by Atri »

ardy wrote:neither a subject nor an object but as the basic truth of your existence, giving you access to who you really are. To hold yourself as a subjective being, an observer of the objective world around you seems somewhat dream like to me
There are only two thing in the world. I as a formless timeless and spaceless subject and everything else which is fundamentally an appearance to me the subject, all these appearances are objects.

Thus it is not true that I am neither a subject nor an object for then I would be nothing since there is nothing else in the creation except these two.
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Cahoot
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by Cahoot »

Hello Atri
As long as we’re dividing
awareness into two
subject and object
Keep it up and divide into three
Subject, object, and me
Include yourself
To make it four
Any more
And the juggling
Distracts ...
from the jiggle
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Atri wrote:There are only two thing in the world. I as a formless timeless and spaceless subject and everything else which is fundamentally an appearance to me the subject, all these appearances are objects.

Thus it is not true that I am neither a subject nor an object for then I would be nothing since there is nothing else in the creation except these two.
It's tempting to boil down to dualities. The only two things (2 objects) in the "world" (hey 3 objects?) are always the many opposites. Any division, any polarity would do. But with all these objects conveniently lumped together we have to distinguish between true and false appearances if we want to remain reasonable, wise and thoughtful, okay? So we cannot ignore the question if this spaceless subject isn't another object. There are more objects which qualify for timeless and spaceless, for example abstracts or cosmological constants and so on.

But I'm not disagreeing really, as it's true enough. We have the natural necessity and causality, ruled by time and seen as "objective" on the one hand and what I call an artifice, which seems timeless, secret, subjective, unknown, magical and defying all laws at the other hand. The "outer" world and the "inner" power.

It's good to see this but in my view it's part of understanding to see both aspects interacting. What "we" are is defined by both since a human is both natural and "artificial". Although some have called it having a "soul". Most people seem to believe they are truly an object stuck in time and activities and in that sense truely lost but only in the sense that the secret has become near complete for them. But discovering the power of the subject (as you call it) seems only the beginning: it doesn't overrule causality after all.
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ardy
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by ardy »

Atri wrote:
ardy wrote:neither a subject nor an object but as the basic truth of your existence, giving you access to who you really are. To hold yourself as a subjective being, an observer of the objective world around you seems somewhat dream like to me
There are only two thing in the world. I as a formless timeless and spaceless subject and everything else which is fundamentally an appearance to me the subject, all these appearances are objects.

Thus it is not true that I am neither a subject nor an object for then I would be nothing since there is nothing else in the creation except these two.
Atri - it is not correct that you are a subject. My understanding about enlightenment is that once complete you are part of everything, the distinction between you and everything else disappears, there is no subject or object there is just you existing in this world in the common reality, except you are free of all discrimination. The dualities no longer exist. This existence is impossible to imagine and even harder to put into words.


"If things could be expressed like this with ink and paper,
what would be the purpose of Zen?"

Huang Bo
Atri
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by Atri »

Ardy,

You are making this more complex then it needs to be. The fundamental question is who am I. The answer is not mysterious it is just awareness. Everything else is just appearances to the awareness that you are.

Ask yourself this: what is it that remained unchanged since you were a child till now? That is what you are, rest everything else is flux.

In Vedanta the two principles are Brahm and Maya. Awareness and appearance.

Vedanta does say that Maya is ultimately Brahm because it does not exist apart from Brahm, (i.e. appearances cannot stand apart from awareness). This is what is meant by your this statement here
ardy wrote: My understanding about enlightenment is that once complete you are part of everything, the distinction between you and everything else disappears,
However, to realize enlightenment you must take a stance as awareness and negate all appearances as not you. Even though ultimately all appearances are dependent upon you (i.e. Brahm).
Bobo
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by Bobo »

Do you see other people as enlightened or unenlightened?
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Atri wrote:Hi Ardy,
Glad to be here and discuss with like like minded people such as you.
As for the question, well what is the point of imagining such extreme scenarios and what will happen then. Indeed what will happen is simply karma of the mind and body resolving itself i.e. past flowing into the future.
Being enlightened does not change the law of karma. In the enlightened there is a certain knowledge in the mind which tells you what you are, or more precisely inhibits attaching to false imaginations of what you are, which then leaves you as you are.
Arising of this knowledge is also a play of karma. If the mind and it's knowledge is compromised somehow then enlightenment will too vanish.
As for subject and object all of us are the subject only at all times, and occupy a unique position. Only that we get attached to mental images and concepts and imagine ourselves to be some object or another. Enlightenment is the firm knowledge of you as a subject that can never be objectified.
Do you view karma as a causal reality...simple cause and effect, action and reaction?

Or are you saying that if you do something bad to someone, something bad happens to you. Because if that's the case, people don't even KNOW the MEANING of karma. They haven't even got what's coming to them. All I see are bad people hurting people and yet they don't seem to have any negative karma at all. All I can do is PRAY they get what's coming to them. Pain and death.
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SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Atri wrote:Ardy,

You are making this more complex then it needs to be. The fundamental question is who am I. The answer is not mysterious it is just awareness. Everything else is just appearances to the awareness that you are.

Ask yourself this: what is it that remained unchanged since you were a child till now? That is what you are, rest everything else is flux.

In Vedanta the two principles are Brahm and Maya. Awareness and appearance.

Vedanta does say that Maya is ultimately Brahm because it does not exist apart from Brahm, (i.e. appearances cannot stand apart from awareness). This is what is meant by your this statement here
ardy wrote: My understanding about enlightenment is that once complete you are part of everything, the distinction between you and everything else disappears,
However, to realize enlightenment you must take a stance as awareness and negate all appearances as not you. Even though ultimately all appearances are dependent upon you (i.e. Brahm).

Atri, you're 100% correct. Except for the language and distinction, "whats me" awareness, and "not me" appearances. Yet you're obviously talking about the timeless self and impermanent appearances, so you are correct, I just wouldn't use those distinctions and say appearances are "not me".
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Do you view karma as a causal reality...simple cause and effect, action and reaction?

Or are you saying that if you do something bad to someone, something bad happens to you. Because if that's the case, people don't even KNOW the MEANING of karma. They haven't even got what's coming to them. All I see are bad people hurting people and yet they don't seem to have any negative karma at all. All I can do is PRAY they get what's coming to them. Pain and death.

Karma as described by the Buddha is habit energy, not some mystical force that punishes you, but a result of perpetuating ignorance, and continuing the.."become entangled in a coccoon of discrimination".

Anyway, you still haven't stopped with the meaning-making? You need to get on board with "Listening" as opposed to just reading.
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Do you view karma as a causal reality...simple cause and effect, action and reaction?

Or are you saying that if you do something bad to someone, something bad happens to you. Because if that's the case, people don't even KNOW the MEANING of karma. They haven't even got what's coming to them. All I see are bad people hurting people and yet they don't seem to have any negative karma at all. All I can do is PRAY they get what's coming to them. Pain and death.

Karma as described by the Buddha is habit energy, not some mystical force that punishes you, but a result of perpetuating ignorance, and continuing the.."become entangled in a coccoon of discrimination".

Anyway, you still haven't stopped with the meaning-making? You need to get on board with "Listening" as opposed to just reading.
But if I'm not you, and your existence is always and forever a third person extension of my own mind, how do I know you are real, other than just a person in my mind? How do I know you still exist, even when I don't think about or interact with you?
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Atri
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by Atri »

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote: Do you view karma as a causal reality...simple cause and effect, action and reaction?

Or are you saying that if you do something bad to someone, something bad happens to you. Because if that's the case, people don't even KNOW the MEANING of karma. They haven't even got what's coming to them. All I see are bad people hurting people and yet they don't seem to have any negative karma at all. All I can do is PRAY they get what's coming to them. Pain and death.
Karma is essentially cause and effect. Patterns forming and dissolving and transforming other patterns
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Cahoot
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by Cahoot »

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
SeekerOfWisdom wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Do you view karma as a causal reality...simple cause and effect, action and reaction?

Or are you saying that if you do something bad to someone, something bad happens to you. Because if that's the case, people don't even KNOW the MEANING of karma. They haven't even got what's coming to them. All I see are bad people hurting people and yet they don't seem to have any negative karma at all. All I can do is PRAY they get what's coming to them. Pain and death.

Karma as described by the Buddha is habit energy, not some mystical force that punishes you, but a result of perpetuating ignorance, and continuing the.."become entangled in a coccoon of discrimination".

Anyway, you still haven't stopped with the meaning-making? You need to get on board with "Listening" as opposed to just reading.
But if I'm not you, and your existence is always and forever a third person extension of my own mind, how do I know you are real, other than just a person in my mind? How do I know you still exist, even when I don't think about or interact with you?
You don’t know, for sure
For sure you only know “I Am”
In every situation that you know
The surety of all else
Is of varying probability
Based on memory and reasoning
Which collect obscurations
Like windows collect dirt

Like the knowing
Of memory and reasoning
The “I” thought
Is the knowing of Am

Even when you talk to another person face-to-face, you infer that person’s existence based on probability founded on memory and reasoning, which may or may not be clear. This will likely become more apparent in daily life as AI interactions move from telephone and gaming to face-to-face, and we modify discrimination clues for discerning what is human.
BardoXV
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by BardoXV »

Enlightenment?
Those who know, don't say.
Those who say, don't know.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »


And those who just "say" usually stopped listening a long time ago :-)

All knowledge is an active principle of listening, change and expression. The rest a mixture of dead letters and drunk feelings.

Welcome Bardo!
BardoXV
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by BardoXV »

Thankyou for the welcome.

Listening is not talking, just as enlightenment is not thinking.

A Cup of Tea
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”
“Like this cup,” Nan-in said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by crow »

To the unenlightened, the enlightened makes only a claim to it, and is thus mad.
To the enlightened, there is no claim to make, only what-is. He sees the madness of the unenlightened.

There is no way for communication to take place. No common ground.

The enlightened leaves self behind. He has to, otherwise enlightenment cannot occur.
The unenlightened clings to self for his very life. He cannot conceive of life without self.

Self is only an idea. The mind creates it. Clings to it. Perpetuates it.
Like a job-creation program.
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ardy
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Re: Enlightened Am

Post by ardy »

crow wrote:To the unenlightened, the enlightened makes only a claim to it, and is thus mad.
To the enlightened, there is no claim to make, only what-is. He sees the madness of the unenlightened.

There is no way for communication to take place. No common ground.

The enlightened leaves self behind. He has to, otherwise enlightenment cannot occur.
The unenlightened clings to self for his very life. He cannot conceive of life without self.

Self is only an idea. The mind creates it. Clings to it. Perpetuates it.
Like a job-creation program.
Yes Crow and therefore it is often referred to as the Ego Death. Having been close to letting my 'self' go I can understand why it often needs a strong push to send you through. It is a very scary situation and feels like you will die with nothing to hold onto.
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