If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it be?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
RZoo
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If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it be?

Post by RZoo »

Trick question - you can't eliminate anything without eliminating it all. Although that's a good question - would you happily eliminate it all?

Let's discuss the human bias against life. Almost everyone seems to want to eliminate something, be it violence, lying, fallacies, poverty, or so on.

Why is everyone so pessimistic? Why is life viewed as "imperfect" and "flawed" (metaphysical nonsense, but it reveals a bias)?

Is it likely that these people will eventually destroy humanity along their quest?
Glostik91
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Glostik91 »

RZoo wrote:Trick question - you can't eliminate anything without eliminating it all. Although that's a good question - would you happily eliminate it all?

Let's discuss the human bias against life. Almost everyone seems to want to eliminate something, be it violence, lying, fallacies, poverty, or so on.

Why is everyone so pessimistic? Why is life viewed as "imperfect" and "flawed" (metaphysical nonsense, but it reveals a bias)?

Is it likely that these people will eventually destroy humanity along their quest?
I would eliminate the 'f' and replace it with a 'v'.
a gutter rat looking at stars
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

RZoo wrote:Let's discuss the human bias against life. Almost everyone seems to want to eliminate something, be it violence, lying, fallacies, poverty, or so on.
Part of waking up and smelling the roses is the realization how twisted, sad, damaged and alienated humanity is. And so the disgust ("shame") is the first sign of any deeper consciousness of the situation. For the average man this works mostly subconsciously, he will actually work very hard to put the genie back in the bottle, achieving "happiness and contentment" by some formula or practice ("clothing"). Ignorance swiftly follows in its wake with various forms of institutionalized insanities. The Big Project of the human race appears to be this, to hide its own inherent violence toward life, nature and essentially truth, pushing it deeper in many creative, enticing ways. And on this shrine, this secret burial place whole civilizations have been built nevertheless. Which is intriguing!

It's unclear if humanity is not doing something very natural by destroying itself. Perhaps to change that, one first has to redefine human and reconstruct the notion.
Glostik91
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Glostik91 »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote: Part of waking up and smelling the roses is the realization how twisted, sad, damaged and alienated humanity is. And so the disgust ("shame") is the first sign of any deeper consciousness of the situation. For the average man this works mostly subconsciously, he will actually work very hard to put the genie back in the bottle, achieving "happiness and contentment" by some formula or practice ("clothing"). Ignorance swiftly follows in its wake with various forms of institutionalized insanities. The Big Project of the human race appears to be this, to hide its own inherent violence toward life, nature and essentially truth, pushing it deeper in many creative, enticing ways. And on this shrine, this secret burial place whole civilizations have been built nevertheless. Which is intriguing!

It's unclear if humanity is not doing something very natural by destroying itself. Perhaps to change that, one first has to redefine human and reconstruct the notion.
Well said!
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RZoo
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by RZoo »

Interesting thoughts, thanks.
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:The Big Project of the human race appears to be this, to hide its own inherent violence toward life, nature and essentially truth....
Humanity seems to be getting nearer to truth than ever. In the past we had crude religions, then mere morality, and now we have existentialism. Of course we're also getting farther from it at the same time, as necessary. The hottest water, on a normalized scale, will also be accompanied with the coldest, and nobody would need to become an existentialist if not in flight from something worse. :-)

Or maybe you meant "truth" as the state of not feeling neither either hot nor cold (both as delusions), truth nor falsehood, etc, kind of like back before evolution even got started: the calm, quite, peaceful planet without those energetic young organisms reeking havoc and stirring up chaos. In that case, one must wonder what is so bad and ugly about "truth" that it made life turn a 180 and evolve as fast as possible in the opposite direction. :-)
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Part of waking up and smelling the roses is the realization how twisted, sad, damaged and alienated humanity is.
One more thing - is this really how you judge humanity? (If so, you're getting close to demonstrating the bias quite well. :-)
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

RZoo wrote:one must wonder what is so bad and ugly about "truth" that it made life turn a 180 and evolve as fast as possible in the opposite direction. :-)
Much of life appears to thrive on the lack of hesitation and the overarching importance given to some specific drive, physically or mentally. The will to truth, as Nietzsche mused, might be already a sign of some kind of "damaged instinct". Even worse, realizing the function of masking and camouflage hinders the ability to mask and hide which appears to be the one true defining quality of a human being so far: to expertly hide himself and his intentions for himself.

As for existentialism, didn't Sartre also describe how our fear for freedom seems so defining, as if it was the prison which gave us existence and life in the first place? One could easily argue how meaning itself is always constructed by various restrictions and impositions. Which are then naturally opposed and challenged.
Diebert wrote:Part of waking up and smelling the roses is the realization how twisted, sad, damaged and alienated humanity is.
One more thing - is this really how you judge humanity? (If so, you're getting close to demonstrating the bias quite well. :-)
I just wrote that it's part of waking up or developing any consciousness (or "conscience"). The realization of good and evil, of suffering. But I'd suggest it as understandable passage, not as any final judgment on humanity. Although one has to laugh at some of the "solutions" being offered, like the eradication of conscience as some kind of final liberation.
Leyla Shen
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Leyla Shen »

RZoo wrote:Trick question - you can't eliminate anything without eliminating it all. Although that's a good question - would you happily eliminate it all?

Let's discuss the human bias against life. Almost everyone seems to want to eliminate something, be it violence, lying, fallacies, poverty, or so on.

Why is everyone so pessimistic? Why is life viewed as "imperfect" and "flawed" (metaphysical nonsense, but it reveals a bias)?

Is it likely that these people will eventually destroy humanity along their quest?
Well, if you're Nietzschean (and therefore anti-metaphysics) at heart, it's not really a matter of pessimism and optimism so much as it is a matter of strong and weak will; strong will as creator of values, weak will as slave morality.
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Pam Seeback
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Pam Seeback »

Diebert: The Big Project of the human race appears to be this, to hide its own inherent violence toward life, nature and essentially truth, pushing it deeper in many creative, enticing ways. And on this shrine, this secret burial place whole civilizations have been built nevertheless. Which is intriguing!
The problem is, once the Wizard is revealed, it's back to life on the farm with Auntie Em. Intriguing, no longer intriguing, we're back to the same old loop of "to be or not to be." As for enticing, is this not the poison of Femininity that the reasoning Masculine mind is "supposed" to reject and overcome? And what are shrines but someone's subjective idea of what is holy, right and true, another "supposed to/should" that the will will inevitably resist with all its might?
It's unclear if humanity is not doing something very natural by destroying itself. Perhaps to change that, one first has to redefine human and reconstruct the notion.
Nothing is ultimately clear. So what are we changing from/into except our individual, subjective, momentary definitions of being? I'm not going to say that THE reason comedy/laughter exists is because of the insanity of the search for perfection, but I'd like to. :-)
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:The problem is, once the Wizard is revealed, it's back to life on the farm with Auntie Em.
Why would that be? Farm life is just an earlier version of civilization, agricultural of course but the big estates are still more like mini-societies. In any case, the wizard is still us, no matter which backwater we'd magically locate ourselves "through the stage trapdoor".
Intriguing, no longer intriguing, we're back to the same old loop of "to be or not to be." As for enticing, is this not the poison of Femininity that the reasoning Masculine mind is "supposed" to reject and overcome? And what are shrines but someone's subjective idea of what is holy, right and true, another "supposed to/should" that the will will inevitably resist with all its might?
The opening post suggested to "discuss the human bias against life". It's just a context one can work with, like all other frameworks for discussion, action, meaning and life. Personally I see similarities to "the human bias against truth", also implied by the OP by the use of the word "bias", meaning "contaminated view".
So what are we changing from/into except our individual, subjective, momentary definitions of being?
"Except"? Especially any notions on individuality, subjectivity, momentariness and being!
RZoo
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by RZoo »

Leyla Shen wrote:Well, if you're Nietzschean (and therefore anti-metaphysics) at heart, it's not really a matter of pessimism and optimism so much as it is a matter of strong and weak will; strong will as creator of values, weak will as slave morality.
Strong will as creator of values, weak will as slave morality. Values that slander reality ("idealism"; values that glorify some other world) as "pessimism" (this world sucks). Metaphysics as the means by which other such worlds are imagined.
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Leyla Shen »

Why would you be concerned about the slander against reality of the weak-willed? Reality certainly isn't. In fact, isn't it necessarily true that it's reality that makes the weak-willed weak, just as it is reality that makes the strong-willed.

Will the "meek" destroy the Earth from an inability to act?

Probably.
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Leyla Shen
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Leyla Shen »

I was in the process of closing webpages before starting a game of AOE2. Here's an excerpt from a man whose observations are always across the totality of the subject:
We see how the history of industry and the established objective existence of industry are the open book of man’s essential powers, the perceptibly existing human psychology. Hitherto this was not conceived in its connection with man’s essential being, but only in an external relation of utility, because, moving in the realm of estrangement, people could only think of man’s general mode of being – religion or history in its abstract-general character as politics, art, literature, etc. – ||IX| as the reality of man’s essential powers and man’s species-activity. We have before us the objectified essential powers of man in the form of sensuous, alien, useful objects, in the form of estrangement, displayed in ordinary material industry (which can be conceived either as a part of that general movement, or that movement can be conceived as a particular part of industry, since all human activity hitherto has been labour – that is, industry – activity estranged from itself).

A psychology for which this book, the part of history existing in the most perceptible and accessible form, remains a closed book, cannot become a genuine, comprehensive and real science. What indeed are we to think of a science which airily abstracts from this large part of human labour and which fails to feel its own incompleteness, while such a wealth of human endeavour, unfolded before it, means nothing more to it than, perhaps, what can be expressed in one word – “need”, “vulgar need”?

The natural sciences have developed an enormous activity and have accumulated an ever-growing mass of material. Philosophy, however, has remained just as alien to them as they remain to philosophy. Their momentary unity was only a chimerical illusion. The will was there, but the power was lacking. Historiography itself pays regard to natural science only occasionally, as a factor of enlightenment, utility, and of some special great discoveries. But natural science has invaded and transformed human life all the more practically through the medium of industry; and has prepared human emancipation, although its immediate effect had to be the furthering of the dehumanisation of man. Industry is the actual, historical relationship of nature, and therefore of natural science, to man. If, therefore, industry is conceived as the exoteric revelation of man’s essential powers, we also gain an understanding of the human essence of nature or the natural essence of man. In consequence, natural science will lose its abstractly material – or rather, its idealistic – tendency, and will become the basis of human science, as it has already become – albeit in an estranged form – the basis of actual human life, and to assume one basis for life and a different basis for science is as a matter of course a lie. The nature which develops in human history – the genesis of human society – is man’s real nature; hence nature as it develops through industry, even though in an estranged form, is true anthropological nature.
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RZoo
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by RZoo »

Leyla Shen wrote:Why would you be concerned about the slander against reality of the weak-willed? Reality certainly isn't. In fact, isn't it necessarily true that it's reality that makes the weak-willed weak, just as it is reality that makes the strong-willed.

Will the "meek" destroy the Earth from an inability to act?

Probably.
I might be an interested party. At the least, I'm curious what the future will hold - if the bias against life will continue to grow, if we'll eventually destroy ourselves, or what alternatives might arise.

It's looking pretty bleak. We have the power to physically destroy humanity and we're constantly improving our power to control people (for instance, we already attempt to reduce mental diversity in our population via "medication"). Unless we colonize other planets or dismantle or develop something to neutralize them, our nuclear weapons (and fuel sources) will continue to pose a threat to humanity. Controlling ourselves is less of a threat (in my view), as diversity (change) would be extremely difficult to completely contain.

There are a few positive hints, such as the growing stupidity and dependency of the masses (at least in some areas of the world) - maybe they will be conquered anew or eliminated. The trend appears to be the opposite, so far, and it's not clear if there will be any reversing of it.
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Russell Parr
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Russell Parr »

RZoo wrote:Trick question - you can't eliminate anything without eliminating it all. Although that's a good question - would you happily eliminate it all?

Let's discuss the human bias against life. Almost everyone seems to want to eliminate something, be it violence, lying, fallacies, poverty, or so on.

Why is everyone so pessimistic? Why is life viewed as "imperfect" and "flawed" (metaphysical nonsense, but it reveals a bias)?
Good and bad, right and wrong, here and there, i.e. all dualistic viewpoints are part and parcel to the experience of consciousness. In this sense, you're right to say that you can't get rid of one without getting rid of the other.

Pessimism is a part of life because we are caused to value life, or at least certain aspects of it. Flaws and imperfections are perceived when our sense of self, the ego, perceives a lacking in that which it values.

Do you perceive "metaphysical nonsense" to be a human flaw? Do you see it as something that should be eliminated?
Is it likely that these people will eventually destroy humanity along their quest?
Who knows? By next week, we may die of a nuclear holocaust or by meteor strike.

My question is, is there a degree is pessimism driving you to ask such a question?
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Leyla Shen »

RZoo,
It's looking pretty bleak. We have the power to physically destroy humanity and we're constantly improving our power to control people (for instance, we already attempt to reduce mental diversity in our population via "medication"). Unless we colonize other planets or dismantle or develop something to neutralize them, our nuclear weapons (and fuel sources) will continue to pose a threat to humanity. Controlling ourselves is less of a threat (in my view), as diversity (change) would be extremely difficult to completely contain.
I don't know, haven't we arrived where we are now from a history of such diversity? If not, what would you say is different and why?
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RZoo
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by RZoo »

Russell wrote:Good and bad, right and wrong, here and there, i.e. all dualistic viewpoints are part and parcel to the experience of consciousness. In this sense, you're right to say that you can't get rid of one without getting rid of the other.

Pessimism is a part of life because we are caused to value life, or at least certain aspects of it. Flaws and imperfections are perceived when our sense of self, the ego, perceives a lacking in that which it values.

Do you perceive "metaphysical nonsense" to be a human flaw? Do you see it as something that should be eliminated?
Flaw or enhancement is a matter of perspective. Perhaps it will have been a flaw if we destroy ourselves because of it (if we value humanity's continuance, which I tend to). It is a flaw in the sense that it misleads people and has created a strong pessimism in humanity. But if that strong pessimism is a prerequisite for an stronger optimism, then it will have been for our enhancement. Eliminated, no, but overcome, similar to mistakes in the past that have been debunked and are no longer believed in.

I am certainly not against anything in the present, only interested in how the future will shape and what impact I can have on it.
Russell wrote:My question is, is there a degree is pessimism driving you to ask such a question?
There is not pessimism behind my question (as far as I can identify).
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

RZoo wrote:Strong will as creator of values, weak will as slave morality. Values that slander reality ("idealism"; values that glorify some other world) as "pessimism" (this world sucks). Metaphysics as the means by which other such worlds are imagined.
Aha. But are you suggesting that "this world" is a notion that could be clear of any otherworldliness? Otherwise idealism remains just futurism, casting a view on future possibilities and pursuing those. That in itself seems pretty valuable and natural to do. Although not necessarily resulting in anything meaningful or valuable at first glance.
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ardy
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by ardy »

Our ridiculous herd instinct.
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Cahoot
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Cahoot »

The result of an individual trajectory when perceived as part of the herd trajectory.

Crazy Circle Illusion!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNe6fsaCVtI
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Tomas
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Post by Tomas »

Death
Don't run to your death
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Then what would be left, Tomas?

Death is what lives between the breaths.
Bobo
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Bobo »

What would be left is something that lives beyond the breaths - Faith.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Bobo wrote:What would be left is something that lives beyond the breaths - Faith.
Breath here include all things. The deeper the breath, the stronger the faith, the higher the reverse flow of challenge. Occulted, like death approaching.

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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Bobo »

So nothing would be left?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: If you could eliminate one thing from life what would it

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Death is mostly about the illusion that things could be really eliminated (subtracted) from other things. Or that something would be left, some substrate, if one would eliminate, meditate or subtract enough, to "stop breathing", like the otherworldly. But in the games we actually play, with life as stake, as betting against being, there is indeed nothing ever left; death always immanent.
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