Mystical consciousness first...

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Pam Seeback
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Mystical consciousness first...

Post by Pam Seeback »

On setting out on the path to discover one's true nature, there are few who do not encounter the mystical experience wherein all sense of being separate falls away and the landscape of pure being, of eternity-infinity is revealed to exist everywhere and nowhere all 'at once!' Joy of joys, love of loves, all is good, all is complete, the All is all there Is!

So all-encompassing is the mystical experience that it is easy to understand why the mystic cannot see (yet) that they have experienced the awakening to their true nature but are not yet awake to the way of thinking of their true nature. This is the difficult part of wisdom, the absorption into consciousness of the sublime-holy-mystical way of transformation so conscious sage can be born.
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

Post by Dennis Mahar »

What about Hitler and child molesters?
Pam Seeback
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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The reason for your question?
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

Post by Pam Seeback »

You fling something that has meaning only to you into a thread, and when asked directly why you did so, your reasons, you don't answer. A while back, you questioned your effectiveness as a coach...now you know why.
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

Post by Dennis Mahar »

What about hitler and child molesters?
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

Post by bluebody »

Dennis Mahar wrote:What about hitler and child molesters?
That is a valid question. Let´s take Hitler. He has been a tyrant. The people were the victims and followers. There were only a few,
who spoke against the system, that was established in 1933 and beyond. And those who did: Most were killed or ridiculed.
All this happened. It is personal choice what to do. Noone has to follow any fool. The main question is: Will Hitler die for me, when it´s time? No, he won´t. So, why then live for him? And many did and they got enslaved. You remember Jesus talking: "Give them the other cheek?" That´s the answer. Will you die for your conviction, that the God is within you and that you will live immortaly ever. There is nothing Good or Bad in this story. There is just free choice of everyone. So Hitler isn´t a good or bad guy. He is just the one who choose to be powerfull over a whole nation and play, what today is played by the grey men, but more subtle, not in direct wars, but economic one´s. So the greatest enslave there is, is not Hitler, but Time / the clock and money, though it´s just a paper with a face on it.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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Hello blue, welcome.
bluebody wrote: So the greatest enslave there is, is not Hitler, but Time / the clock and money, though it´s just a paper with a face on it.
That sounds about right: time & money as representing the enslaver, as if it's some giant clockwork of causality and laws of exchange. Even our body is full of clocks interlocking with others, chemicals getting converted, stored and various energies exchanged. Nature that way is amoral and Good or Bad indeed does not live here although it doesn't have to be accepted either, meaning, one still can challenge it, respond or ignore all of it at ones own peril.
Will you die for your conviction, that the God is within you and that you will live immortaly ever. There is nothing Good or Bad in this story. There is just free choice of everyone. So Hitler isn´t a good or bad guy. He is just the one who choose to be powerfull over a whole nation and play what today is played by the grey men, but more subtle, not in direct wars, but economic one´s.
It's interesting you mention playing. The "game" appears to be always a bloody, sacrificial one and artificial in the sense that we keep constructing the ritual engagement and its rule base. But in this space morality does live, simply because human morality is derived by the rules of the game and rarely derived just from nature. Even Hitler had a very strong sense of good or bad; it was all ideology with him after all. The world as a whole briefly got sucked into this deadly game of right and wrong, superior and inferior. The tragedy was, and always is, when this game is being confused with nature. A good example is the theory of eugenics: deriving morality directly from natural sciences or other material, historical or political outlooks. Even WW1, like WW2 can be seen as an outcome of politicans all caught in some techncratic moral conviction rising out of the remains of 19th century naturalism. And not much has changed, you are right in stating that the same game is still being played and will keep requiring stunning sacrifices. But this is also the wheel of suffering and redemption.
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Dennis Mahar wrote:What about Hitler and child molesters?
If I am not mistaken, and I could be, from what I presume, is that Dennis here is implying that Hitler and child molesters, being evil people, do not understand the mystical experience you described in your original post.

Hitler was a bad guy, but so isn't the world. Your friends, your family, they all have Hitler in them. Did you know Hitler was a vegan? Hitler cared more about animal rights than your friends, your family, he cared more for animals than 94 percent of the world, who is okay with letting animals be tortured and enslaved just to fulfill their mortal pallets. How sickening.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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Yes, that's odd. Never thought about it that much although Hitler I suspect, reading the biography of his doctor, was more into energy boosting and interested in experimental food science. He lived on supplements and vitamin injections at the height of his crazyness. Wouldn't call that veganism. Then again, there's that story about Göring even sending offenders of the new animal laws to concentration camps. It appears that Untermenschen were indeed seen as lower than animals (or at least according to eugenics a threat to the European gene pool, while animals were not)

"When it comes to animals, every man is a Nazi." -- from The Penitent, Isaac Singer.
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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"When it comes to animals, every man is a Nazi." -- from The Penitent, Isaac Singer.[/quote]

Truth. Although there might be a 1 percent out there who are not.
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Dennis Mahar wrote:What about Hitler and child molesters?
If I am not mistaken, and I could be, from what I presume, is that Dennis here is implying that Hitler and child molesters, being evil people, do not understand the mystical experience you described in your original post.

Hitler was a bad guy, but so isn't the world. Your friends, your family, they all have Hitler in them. Did you know Hitler was a vegan? Hitler cared more about animal rights than your friends, your family, he cared more for animals than 94 percent of the world, who is okay with letting animals be tortured and enslaved just to fulfill their mortal pallets. How sickening.
I am vegan, I accept that it makes a small difference, but I don't single out mankind for his cruelty toward sentient beings, nature by far surpasses man with her blind causality of physical and psychological torture. Even if mankind were to collectively stop eating meat and dairy and end what you call the animal holocaust, would his heart still not be affected by the sight of nature's eternal conscience-less violent existence?

To be of nature is to suffer. Man is of nature and transcends nature, both, therefore, man both suffers and transcends suffering. The depth to which man is reconciled to this truth dictates whether or not it makes final peace with the unknown creator of it all, and in doing so, find its spiritual/existential heart of infinite compassion. Much healthier and saner to live in a compassionate, understanding heart than a sickened, angry one.
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

movingalways wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Dennis Mahar wrote:What about Hitler and child molesters?
If I am not mistaken, and I could be, from what I presume, is that Dennis here is implying that Hitler and child molesters, being evil people, do not understand the mystical experience you described in your original post.

Hitler was a bad guy, but so isn't the world. Your friends, your family, they all have Hitler in them. Did you know Hitler was a vegan? Hitler cared more about animal rights than your friends, your family, he cared more for animals than 94 percent of the world, who is okay with letting animals be tortured and enslaved just to fulfill their mortal pallets. How sickening.
I am vegan, I accept that it makes a small difference, but I don't single out mankind for his cruelty toward sentient beings, nature by far surpasses man with her blind causality of physical and psychological torture. Even if mankind were to collectively stop eating meat and dairy and end what you call the animal holocaust, would his heart still not be affected by the sight of nature's eternal conscience-less violent existence?

To be of nature is to suffer. Man is of nature and transcends nature, both, therefore, man both suffers and transcends suffering. The depth to which man is reconciled to this truth dictates whether or not it makes final peace with the unknown creator of it all, and in doing so, find its spiritual/existential heart of infinite compassion. Much healthier and saner to live in a compassionate, understanding heart than a sickened, angry one.
I am aware of nature's suffering, and man is a product of nature. Man is the ultimate suffering.

I don't care about my life or how healthy I am. Oh I understand mankind.

The orbit of a planet is a delicate thing, like life, it can be easily sent off balance and sent to Hell or Ice. Nature is naturally Hell, most of the universe is space, but a body in space and it explodes. Still, the conditions of life are what some would say a freak accident, but an inevitable one, since if life didn't exist, we wouldnt experience it. Life, a freak thing, is not part the Hell of Nature, but it's magnetic opposite. Mankind's hell is even worse than the natural hell of nature., surpassing even that of a blackhole. And once we either eliminate or castrate Nature's hideous construction, Mankind, then we can move on to bring more Life to the galaxy. Earth is our playground, our platform, and it's time we stop Mankind from meddling once and for all. We can change things, forever.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:Nature is naturally Hell .... Life, a freak thing, is not part the Hell of Nature, but it's magnetic opposite.
You're making an unusual and seemingly random division here. Care to explain? Do you mean with nature something like "natural Law" and with life something like "magical Circus"? In that case I could follow that but it seems you believe they are not connected or dependent, so you can advocate the elimination of one and the promotion of the other? But perhaps you should explain first.
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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Trixie: it's time we stop Mankind from meddling once and for all. We can change things, forever.
According to the law of Trixie?
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:Nature is naturally Hell .... Life, a freak thing, is not part the Hell of Nature, but it's magnetic opposite.
You're making an unusual and seemingly random division here. Care to explain? Do you mean with nature something like "natural Law" and with life something like "magical Circus"? In that case I could follow that but it seems you believe they are not connected or dependent, so you can advocate the elimination of one and the promotion of the other? But perhaps you should explain first.
A fair point. I haven't yet decided a reliable system to weed out the bad humans from the ones who should be saved, or if any are really worthy of salvation. There's always the ones I used to admire but turn out to be rotten filth after all. But if none are saved, then who will bring the light? I am not so foolish to think I alone can save the universe.
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:Nature is naturally Hell .... Life, a freak thing, is not part the Hell of Nature, but it's magnetic opposite.
You're making an unusual and seemingly random division here. Care to explain? Do you mean with nature something like "natural Law" and with life something like "magical Circus"? In that case I could follow that but it seems you believe they are not connected or dependent, so you can advocate the elimination of one and the promotion of the other? But perhaps you should explain first.
A fair point. I haven't yet decided a reliable system to weed out the bad humans from the ones who should be saved, or if any are really worthy of salvation. There's always the ones I used to admire but turn out to be rotten filth after all. But if none are saved, then who will bring the light? I am not so foolish to think I alone can save the universe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnpTWKKWQ1o
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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movingalways wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:Nature is naturally Hell .... Life, a freak thing, is not part the Hell of Nature, but it's magnetic opposite.
You're making an unusual and seemingly random division here. Care to explain? Do you mean with nature something like "natural Law" and with life something like "magical Circus"? In that case I could follow that but it seems you believe they are not connected or dependent, so you can advocate the elimination of one and the promotion of the other? But perhaps you should explain first.
A fair point. I haven't yet decided a reliable system to weed out the bad humans from the ones who should be saved, or if any are really worthy of salvation. There's always the ones I used to admire but turn out to be rotten filth after all. But if none are saved, then who will bring the light? I am not so foolish to think I alone can save the universe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnpTWKKWQ1o
So you do have a sense of humor.

Key differences, I don't have a Chaplin mustache, nor do I hate Jews. Though I don't think the man really hated Jews, just taking advantage of people's hate to gain power over them.
I on the other hand, care not for power sheerly for powers sake. If wickedness is the default state, power for power's sake is the easy road, a cheap, hollow victory. I must save the animals, and the general populace is exactly the opposite of what I'm about. I hate the humans, so how do I get the humans to ally themself against themselves? Therein lies the problem.
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Pam Seeback
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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Trixie: So you do have a sense of humor.
I do but I was not being humorous when I posted the video.
Key differences, I don't have a Chaplin mustache, nor do I hate Jews. Though I don't think the man really hated Jews, just taking advantage of people's hate to gain power over them.
Why should what you think matter to me, or anyone else? Where is your evidence that Hitler didn't hate Jews?
I on the other hand, care not for power sheerly for powers sake. If wickedness is the default state, power for power's sake is the easy road, a cheap, hollow victory. I must save the animals, and the general populace is exactly the opposite of what I'm about. I hate the humans, so how do I get the humans to ally themself against themselves? Therein lies the problem.
You hate the way humans think, but you think humanly. You must save the animals, but you cannot save the gazelle from the lion. What now?
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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movingalways wrote:
Trixie: So you do have a sense of humor.
I do but I was not being humorous when I posted the video.
Key differences, I don't have a Chaplin mustache, nor do I hate Jews. Though I don't think the man really hated Jews, just taking advantage of people's hate to gain power over them.
Why should what you think matter to me, or anyone else? Where is your evidence that Hitler didn't hate Jews?
I on the other hand, care not for power sheerly for powers sake. If wickedness is the default state, power for power's sake is the easy road, a cheap, hollow victory. I must save the animals, and the general populace is exactly the opposite of what I'm about. I hate the humans, so how do I get the humans to ally themself against themselves? Therein lies the problem.
You hate the way humans think, but you think humanly. You must save the animals, but you cannot save the gazelle from the lion. What now?
If it doesn't matter, why do you inquire further? Do you even know what you want? Right now, it doesn't matter to me if you believe he did or not, so in this frame, to us it does not matter.

I don't think you understand. Humans torture animals. Lions do not, although felines have been known to torture. Even so, humans are worse. Felines who torture are a product of nature. Humans are a product of nature. Unfortunately, the random seed gave us a shitty hand and humans have took control. We must reset the random seed and try again until a suitable lifeform rules the galaxy.

I think humanly? What other way is there to think? I can think like a robot, or a variety of different ways.
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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Trixie: I don't think you understand. Humans torture animals. Lions do not, although felines have been known to torture. Even so, humans are worse. Felines who torture are a product of nature. Humans are a product of nature. Unfortunately, the random seed gave us a shitty hand and humans have took control. We must reset the random seed and try again until a suitable lifeform rules the galaxy.
I do understand that humans cause suffering to animals for the sake of vanity and sensual pleasure, this is why I am vegan. Where you and I differ is that you believe your human relativity-dependent intellect has the godlike power and wisdom to reset the "perfectly righteous" seed of life whereas I am aware that what is born of the relative cannot possibly manifest the absolute. In a nutshell, where you err (which is also the cause of your intense suffering) is your belief that human relativity = absolute knowledge.

I relate to your desire to end the totality of the suffering of animals but the hard truth is that you have no true power to make this happen any more than I have true power to make this happen. A hard truth for the empathic human heart to accept, but truth is truth, the very best place to start.
I think humanly? What other way is there to think? I can think like a robot, or a variety of different ways.
Your contradictory suffering mind-heart bleeds through in every post.
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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movingalways wrote:
Trixie: I don't think you understand. Humans torture animals. Lions do not, although felines have been known to torture. Even so, humans are worse. Felines who torture are a product of nature. Humans are a product of nature. Unfortunately, the random seed gave us a shitty hand and humans have took control. We must reset the random seed and try again until a suitable lifeform rules the galaxy.
I do understand that humans cause suffering to animals for the sake of vanity and sensual pleasure, this is why I am vegan. Where you and I differ is that you believe your human relativity-dependent intellect has the godlike power and wisdom to reset the "perfectly righteous" seed of life whereas I am aware that what is born of the relative cannot possibly manifest the absolute. In a nutshell, where you err (which is also the cause of your intense suffering) is your belief that human relativity = absolute knowledge.

I relate to your desire to end the totality of the suffering of animals but the hard truth is that you have no true power to make this happen any more than I have true power to make this happen. A hard truth for the empathic human heart to accept, but truth is truth, the very best place to start.
I think humanly? What other way is there to think? I can think like a robot, or a variety of different ways.
Your contradictory suffering mind-heart bleeds through in every post.
Contradictory suffering? What do you mean by this?

In any-case, it doesn't have to be "perfectly-righteous" just not absolute spacedung.
Unicorns are the master race. Unicorns and dogs. They must be given dominion over this Earth.
We welcome our Unicorn overloads.

You say you and I our powerless? All it takes is one genius to fuse together Unicorn and Human DNA, and infect the humans with the Unicorn Vaccine, mutating all into Unicorns.

Who here is that genius?
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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Do you?
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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movingalways wrote:Do you?
?
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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Do you have the genius to fuse together Unicorn and Human DNA, and infect the humans with the Unicorn Vaccine, mutating all into Unicorns?
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Re: Mystical consciousness first...

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movingalways wrote:Do you have the genius to fuse together Unicorn and Human DNA, and infect the humans with the Unicorn Vaccine, mutating all into Unicorns?
Heck no, and even if I did, I got too many back pains, too much built up insanityitus and too little income to be slaving away in such a manner.
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