Enlightenment

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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TheImmanent
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by TheImmanent »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Immy wrote: The idea of a principle that is true, is an actual true principle.
Since evaluation is happening in both cases (of a principle being true or false) the higher principle here is having value at all. Value here means fundamental orientation, how power is responded to.
Truth is not true because of an evaluation, it remains true regardless. A false idea is however false because it is incorrectly evaluated as true. There is no substance to falsity, but truth is actual. Thus a false idea is posited by the truth of a false idea, not by itself.
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Immy wrote:The illusion of a separate self is the premise of suffering, just like it is the premise of dying, and the premise of the resistance to dying.
Distinction is the premise of everything - not just of suffering. It's also the premise of "not suffering" and "happiness". And when we're making distinctions, there has to be separation. However this is not yet the ignorance of which for example the Buddha spoke or the sin which Jesus brought up. It would be like saying planet Earth is the cause of suffering. Or when our back hurts to blame it on having a spine in upright position in the first place! That approach does not seem to address the nature of suffering at all. To me it sounds like philosophical soma for those suffering too much to take on more thought.
Distinction does not necessitate suffering, the illusion of a separate self does.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Pam Seeback »

The explorer of consciousness discovers distinctions are unavoidable. Now what? is the question that begs answering. Perhaps this is what Jesus meant by "ye are gods", ye are makers of your own distinctions/worlds.
TheImmanent
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by TheImmanent »

movingalways wrote:The explorer of consciousness discovers distinctions are unavoidable. Now what? is the question that begs answering. Perhaps this is what Jesus meant by "ye are gods", ye are makers of your own distinctions/worlds.
There is no explorer of consciousness. There are ideas, among them the idea of someone having ideas. But that idea is not true through itself, but true in that it is an idea. That is, the limited self is conceptual, not actual. There is only one indivisible essence; all divisions are conceptual.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Pam Seeback »

TheImmanent wrote:
movingalways wrote:The explorer of consciousness discovers distinctions are unavoidable. Now what? is the question that begs answering. Perhaps this is what Jesus meant by "ye are gods", ye are makers of your own distinctions/worlds.
There is no explorer of consciousness. There are ideas, among them the idea of someone having ideas. But that idea is not true through itself, but true in that it is an idea. That is, the limited self is conceptual, not actual. There is only one indivisible essence; all divisions are conceptual.
Even if it is true that there is an actual indivisible essence as you say, 'it' cannot avoid making distinctions/concepts. Your words and my words on our respective computer screens are evidence of that. Now what?
Pam Seeback
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Pam Seeback »

Another way of saying this is that even if one intuits a spiritual reality wherein conceptual (intellectual) distinctions are not present (only actual spirit are present), in order to be conscious of being an actual spirit, one would still be subject to the principle of distinction.

It seems that in order to be conscious without struggling with duality, one needs to accept duality as the prerequisite for consciousness.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Dennis Mahar »

One distinction or what is for distinguishing.
chop wood intellect
carry water feeling

limited self.

awareness of that.
bliss.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

TheImmanent wrote:Truth is not true because of an evaluation, it remains true regardless. A false idea is however false because it is incorrectly evaluated as true. There is no substance to falsity, but truth is actual. Thus a false idea is posited by the truth of a false idea, not by itself.
Actuality can neither be true or false. If you want to capture truth in non-dualist notions, you just cannot have any "false" next to it. And if you go down that route the correct way of speaking about it is that "no substance" is actuality as well. Which has been captured by the tricky and almost impossible to penetrate: nirvana is samsara.

As you might be able to see: following truth is the way to go beyond truth and false, good and evil. Following falsehood is the way to hide all proper distinction while division remains.
Immy wrote:Distinction does not necessitate suffering, the illusion of a separate self does.
Any distinction will for ever occur between subject and object. Every distinction will create the illusions of seperate self and other. There's no way around it! We cannot have objects making distinction between other objects and call it actuality. This would be a false disposition of any self cloaked as observer while pulling still all the strings.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote: Perhaps this is what Jesus meant by "ye are gods", ye are makers of your own distinctions/worlds.
But even as creator, the distinctions and worlds appear to be given birth pure out of necessity and not folly. It's like a form of tuning in. What Buddha called the noble eightfold path: doing stuff "right" or proper, fully in response to the universe. This is why it's been said: there is only one truth and one way. This holds true for everything on the noble path but has no objective platform to investigate.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Pam Seeback »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
movingalways wrote: Perhaps this is what Jesus meant by "ye are gods", ye are makers of your own distinctions/worlds.
But even as creator, the distinctions and worlds appear to be given birth pure out of necessity and not folly. It's like a form of tuning in. What Buddha called the noble eightfold path: doing stuff "right" or proper, fully in response to the universe. This is why it's been said: there is only one truth and one way. This holds true for everything on the noble path but has no objective platform to investigate.
By "ye" I was tying his words into one of his most well known sayings, "I and the Father are One." Yes, distinctions must be made out of necessity, contrast is the default position of consciousness.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Pam Seeback »

Diebert, where do you place the waters, "id" of consciousness in the philosophy of doing the right and proper thing, fully in response to the universe?
Pam Seeback
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Pam Seeback »

Why did you post that link?
Pam Seeback
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Pam Seeback »

Dennis Mahar wrote:One distinction or what is for distinguishing.
chop wood intellect
carry water feeling

limited self.

awareness of that.
bliss.
And where does conscience (values) and will fit into your philosophy of bliss chop wood and bliss carry water? Does encountering a rape in progress (distinctions) elicit the same response of your spirit as does encountering a child picking flowers (also distinctions)?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:Diebert, where do you place the waters, "id" of consciousness in the philosophy of doing the right and proper thing, fully in response to the universe?
Being created heavens and earth, waters and men, past and future. This is a very real thing, more real than realities claimed for any god or men. To use the analogy of waters here a bit further: where lies the difference between rain and ocean? Birds and fish? Any notion of "id" or subconsciousness is a model, like religion always has been. Many critics have said psychoanalysis works exactly like a modern religion wrapped in scientific language and pseudo-empirical methods. This "id" however is not only hiding in shadows, in reality it's just as well part of how we look and act. We're staring at it in full daylight. Only in terms of analysis the concept of above and below or "in and out of hiding" could be developed, used and discarded by the individual.
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Kunga
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Kunga »

movingalways wrote: Why did you post that link?

Relax and read it...then you'll know :)
Pam Seeback
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Pam Seeback »

I agree that the waters are not really hiding, that it's a part of how we look and act, (as a man thinkest so is he) which is why I asked how you place the waters of consciousness/being in the philosophy of 'doing the right thing'. I understand the waters as being the enjoyment of distinctions for enjoyments sake, this is their righteousness. It's no secret that I am trying to counter the idea of wise misogyny with the idea of wisdom of all spirits of being.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Pam Seeback »

Kunga wrote:
movingalways wrote: Why did you post that link?

Relax and read it...then you'll know :)
This is a discussion forum.
Leyla Shen
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Nietzsche

Post by Leyla Shen »

movingalways wrote:I agree that the waters are not really hiding, that it's a part of how we look and act, (as a man thinkest so is he) which is why I asked how you place the waters of consciousness/being in the philosophy of 'doing the right thing'. I understand the waters as being the enjoyment of distinctions for enjoyments sake, this is their righteousness. It's no secret that I am trying to counter the idea of wise misogyny with the idea of wisdom of all spirits of being.
The difference between a will to power and an idea is that the former necessarily constitutes the makings of a new value, compelled as it is by the material conditions (or forces, if you prefer) which bring it into existence, and the latter constitutes the powerlessness in (as Deleuze puts it) a plebeian attribution of established values.

Wisdom then is an active, subjective component in the creation of new values; in overcoming rather than obliteration, in undergoing rather than annihilation.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Nietzsche

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote:compelled as [will to power] is by the material conditions (or forces, if you prefer) which bring it into existence
Will to power compelled by a special kind of idea? Even originated by conceptual matter? Will to power has little to do with discussing physics or the situational: the given
TheImmanent
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by TheImmanent »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
TheImmanent wrote:Truth is not true because of an evaluation, it remains true regardless. A false idea is however false because it is incorrectly evaluated as true. There is no substance to falsity, but truth is actual. Thus a false idea is posited by the truth of a false idea, not by itself.
Actuality can neither be true or false. If you want to capture truth in non-dualist notions, you just cannot have any "false" next to it. And if you go down that route the correct way of speaking about it is that "no substance" is actuality as well. Which has been captured by the tricky and almost impossible to penetrate: nirvana is samsara.
Distinctions are not dualistic thinking. The interpretation of distinctions as separate essences is dualistic thinking. Nirvana is samsara understood as a single essence.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:I agree that the waters are not really hiding, that it's a part of how we look and act, (as a man thinkest so is he) which is why I asked how you place the waters of consciousness/being in the philosophy of 'doing the right thing'. I understand the waters as being the enjoyment of distinctions for enjoyments sake, this is their righteousness. It's no secret that I am trying to counter the idea of wise misogyny with the idea of wisdom of all spirits of being.
Perhaps this zen story pens it down a bit:
  • Two traveling monks reached a river where they met a young woman. Wary of the current, she asked if they could carry her across. One of the monks hesitated, but the other quickly picked her up onto his shoulders, transported her across the water, and put her down on the other bank. She thanked him and departed.

    As the monks continued on their way, the one was brooding and preoccupied. Unable to hold his silence, he spoke out: "Brother, our spiritual training teaches us to avoid any contact with women, but you picked that one up on your shoulders and carried her!"

    "Brother," the second monk replied, "I set her down on the other side, while you are still carrying her."
The water as being something to cross, always changing, causes wariness and fear within the archetypal woman. She can only cross standing on someone else's shoulders (material provision) if she lets herself to be carried. The teaching about avoiding contact boils down to transcending being bothered by her necessity and see her as fleeting like the river itself. The woman as "something being carried". This is wise misogyny but it's hard to translate it in real situations and real people because the image of woman (or "opposite", anti-man) is a mirage, a passing perfume cloud which cannot even be "banned" or dealt with. She only fully exists in the symbolical realm. Opposing a physical gender would as nonsensical as opposing an arms or a leg if people did not exist themselves already fully in such symbolical realm or "heaven". Only when getting to earth there's the 'wisdom of spirit' which indeed counters all former notions.

Passing the river itself or carrying her over it is the same "right" and spontaneous thing to do. One reaction, one flow, one determination without settling on any training or teaching. But it's the same teaching that brought the monks there is the first place, right to the point of crossing.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

TheImmanent wrote:Distinctions are not dualistic thinking.
Distinctions only come in two: to contrast with what it is not. All other dualism progresses from there. How could it be different?
TheImmanent
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by TheImmanent »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
TheImmanent wrote:Distinctions are not dualistic thinking.
Distinctions only come in two: to contrast with what it is not. All other dualism progresses from there. How could it be different?
With the same essence, they are not two different things.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Dennis Mahar »

That's the distinction.
discrimination is for survival purposes.
for instance the human eye discriminates variants of green more than any other colour because it had to keep an eye on the grass where predators lay hidden.
causes/conditions.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Quinn's metaphor,
Causality is the costume of an absolute essence is wonderfulness in conception.
a distinction is a declaration.
out of a series of logical discriminations the distinction opens up.
to stand in that.
resoluteness.

emptiness cannot be refuted.
dependent origination.
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