Bliss

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Kunga
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Bliss

Post by Kunga »

Buddhas Bliss was permanent. The bliss I have experienced is impermanent. Is it the same bliss, only the quality and quantity of it relative to the proximity to Enlightenment ?

I thought this article spoke well of this state of Buddhas Bliss :

http://www.homeoint.org/morrell/buddhis ... #topmetals
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Bliss

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Kunga wrote:Buddhas Bliss was permanent. The bliss I have experienced is impermanent. Is it the same bliss, only the quality and quantity of it relative to the proximity to Enlightenment ?

I thought this article spoke well of this state of Buddhas Bliss :

http://www.homeoint.org/morrell/buddhis ... #topmetals
You mention "Buddha's bliss" but what do you know about the man? It's like saying "god created the earth in seven days but my projects take months". Would this bliss be similar to certain drugs, in all its temporariness? Since everything we feel is based on brain and body chemistry, could permanent bliss fit in a pill? A feeding tube? You need to understand the nature of this line of questioning. What do all of these questions have in common?

The oldest meanings of the word revolve around spiteless, friendliness, brightness and lightness. Or just a lack of darkness, heaviness, anger or spite. It's in my view a mistake to look for any (semi)permanent states and feelings. One has to understand things like he was "plagued by continuous, intense and non-fading bliss" are pointless religious talk, like mentioning how beautiful heaven is but you'll have to wait for the afterlife first. The perfection is never within reach and the bits you are experiencing are probably unrelated, just shifting moods of an increasingly sensitive mind. But some weight might decrease underneath all of it.

The bigger idea is to travel light instead.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Bliss

Post by Pam Seeback »

Thus reality is contingent, a product, rather than a cause of itself.
The author of the essay demonstrates his flawed thinking in the above statement. Here is is claiming an effect can arise without a cause. Check out the 31 planes of existence:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html

Note that all realms of existence, including the deva (fine material) realms of varying degrees of jhanic bliss have a cause of rebirth. And of the highest degree of awareness, arupa-loka, neither perception or non perception (ergo, no perception of bliss) the saying attributed to the Buddha is: "Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure." I mentioned the 31st non-material realm only to show that bliss is not a permanent state of awareness, that it is not generated without cause, and that if one hopes to attain to the highest realm of clarity of mind that the sensuous delights of bliss must eventually be transcended.

When asked about the nature of his enlightenment, the answer attributed to the Buddha included no particular effect or product of consciousness:

"...Like a blue lotus, rising up,
unsmeared by water,
unsmeared am I by the world,
and so, brahman,
I'm awake."
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Kunga
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Re: Bliss

Post by Kunga »

"Thus reality is contingent, a product, rather than a cause of itself."

movingalways wrote:
The author of the essay demonstrates his flawed thinking in the above statement. Here is is claiming an effect can arise without a cause. Check out the 31 planes of existence:
No, you interpreted it wrong :
He said reality is "contingent"...rather than a cause of itself"

Which means it is DEPENDENT on causes and conditions...NOT self caused.





Nibbana is described as the highest happiness, the supreme state of bliss.[7] Those who have attained Nibbana live in utter bliss, free from hatred and mental illness amongst those who are hateful and mentally ill.[8] Sukha in Paali denotes both happiness and pleasure. In English happiness denotes more a sense of mental ease while pleasure denotes physical well being. The Paali word sukha extends to both these aspects and it is certain (as will be shown below) that mental and physical bliss is experienced by one who has attained Nibbana.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el407.html
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Kunga
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Re: Bliss

Post by Kunga »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:You mention "Buddha's bliss" but what do you know about the man?
This is an accepted fact amongst Buddhist. I have studied Buddhism for 10+ years. Even if it was a generalization...it's still valid as an argument simply because of it's acceptance and written documentations.

The Buddha said, and demonstrated through his own life, that Nirvana can be achieved in our lives, while living — it is not a place to which we go after death. Buddhists believe that we can eradicate all the causes of suffering in this life, and achieve enlightenment — live in bliss, if we follow the Buddha's teachings.
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Re: Bliss

Post by Pam Seeback »

"Thus reality is contingent, a product, rather than a cause of itself."


movingalways wrote:

The author of the essay demonstrates his flawed thinking in the above statement. Here is is claiming an effect can arise without a cause. Check out the 31 planes of existence:


No, you interpreted it wrong :
He said reality is "contingent"...rather than a cause of itself"

Which means it is DEPENDENT on causes and conditions...NOT self caused.
I understand that reality cannot be self-caused as there is no self, that there are only causes and conditions. A product must be produced. Bliss is a produced product, bliss is a caused condition.
Nibbana is described as the highest happiness, the supreme state of bliss.[7] Those who have attained Nibbana live in utter bliss, free from hatred and mental illness amongst those who are hateful and mentally ill.[8] Sukha in Paali denotes both happiness and pleasure. In English happiness denotes more a sense of mental ease while pleasure denotes physical well being. The Paali word sukha extends to both these aspects and it is certain (as will be shown below) that mental and physical bliss is experienced by one who has attained Nibbana.
I am not saying that bliss as a feeling does not exist for the clear-headed one, only that it is silenced when the activity of thinking out of conscience is engaged. Let's return to the example of rape. One can react mentally and physically to stop a rapist without hate and without mental illness (even if it means killing the rapist) but if one were to react while in a state of mental or body pleasure I would seriously doubt their claim to be without mental illness. In other words, being conscious of the right thing to do, movement of spirit in conscience, can only happen when consciousness of enjoyment is stilled.
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Kunga
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Re: Bliss

Post by Kunga »

movingalways wrote:Bliss is a produced product, bliss is a caused condition.
However...Enlightenment is also caused, and is permanent.
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Kunga
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Re: Bliss

Post by Kunga »

movingalways wrote: if one were to react while in a state of mental or body pleasure I would seriously doubt their claim to be without mental illness.

A Buddha does not experience suffering.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Bliss

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Kunga wrote:it's still valid as an argument simply because of it's acceptance and written documentations.
Acceptance and written documentations mean shit over here. You know that! There are many mainstream Buddhist forums out there if you want to go that route, the "triangular trade route".
Buddhists believe that we can eradicate all the causes of suffering in this life, and achieve enlightenment — live in bliss, if we follow the Buddha's teachings.
Of course there are many religious beliefs, cults and pills which can elevate personal suffering, depression, general struggle with life and downcast moods. But all the teachings call for waking up instead of sleepwalking, for knowing instead of ignorance, for letting go instead of amassing. These are painful processes. Just living is often the most easy option.
Kunga wrote:A Buddha does not experience suffering.
Because he's not there to experience anything. He died. No matter if you take that literally or symbolically, it's not the solution people crave.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Bliss

Post by Pam Seeback »

Can we step away from Buddhism for a moment and define what enlightenment is to one another? Not what we have been told, but what we have reasoned for ourselves. If you are game, I can start if that is your wish. This exchange does not have to go any further than our definitions. We can speak them and let them lie. Or we can reason with one another as to their respective value or worth as a philosophy for being.
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Kunga
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Re: Bliss

Post by Kunga »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Kunga wrote:
A Buddha does not experience suffering.

Because he's not there to experience anything. He died. No matter if you take that literally or symbolically,

How about when he was there [alive].
Anyways, the "self" as existing or not, was a question the Buddha was silent on when asked :

Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible. Thus the question should be put aside.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... self2.html


Also a Buddha does not experience suffering because he has overcome hatred, greed and delusion...
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Kunga
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Re: Bliss

Post by Kunga »

movingalways wrote:Can we step away from Buddhism for a moment and define what enlightenment is to one another? Not what we have been told, but what we have reasoned for ourselves. If you are game, I can start if that is your wish. This exchange does not have to go any further than our definitions. We can speak them and let them lie. Or we can reason with one another as to their respective value or worth as a philosophy for being.
Why don't you start another thread ? :)
Pam Seeback
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Re: Bliss

Post by Pam Seeback »

Okay, coming right up!
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Re: Bliss

Post by Bobo »

Everything is suffering so there cannot be any bliss. But ignorance is bliss and indeed the Buddha bliss is a form of ignorance. It's when you make the Buddha not a Buddha. You may as well call it permanent and bliss.
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Kunga
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Re: Bliss

Post by Kunga »

Bobo wrote:Everything is suffering so there cannot be any bliss. But ignorance is bliss and indeed the Buddha bliss is a form of ignorance. It's when you make the Buddha not a Buddha. You may as well call it permanent and bliss.
Everything that is conditioned suffers. The UNconditioned is blissful because there is no suffering. Buddha Bliss is Nirvana, The Unconditioned.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Bliss

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Everything is suffering so there cannot be any bliss. But ignorance is bliss
To ignore the apparent 'charm' of what is dependently arisen.
I don't know why quotes get skewed by busybodies but there it is.
If it's dependently arisen it's kinda silly to grab it for sustainability.

Take 'ignorance is bliss' as object for meditation.

Your experience in this domain is:

embodied
encultured
enactive
affective
extended (environmentally)

the embodiment of the mind of love and kindness doesn't suck shit.
you already know that.

many minds, many masters.
make up 'your' mind.
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Re: Bliss

Post by Gregory »

As a fellow human being, I would suggest that you compare you impermanent moments of bliss and their respective durations to your similar previous instances, rather than instances of what others claim to be longer, if not permanent. Only then will you notice improvement, for nothing in life is accomplished instantaneously. Who knows, you may or may not eventually achieve permanent bliss, but there's only one way to find out.
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Kunga
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Re: Bliss

Post by Kunga »

Pam Seeback
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Re: Bliss

Post by Pam Seeback »

Kunga,
[from the link provided]

Blissful is solitude
for one who's content,
who has heard the Dhamma,
who sees.
Blissful is non-affliction
with regard for the world,
restraint for living beings.
Blissful is dispassion
with regard for the world,
the overcoming of sensuality.
But the subduing of the conceit "I am" [1] —
That is truly
the ultimate bliss.
The Buddha is right about what happens to the feeling sense when one accepts fully the truth of emptiness and impermanence, but he does not say that when bliss comes, thinking stops. Imagine for a moment consciousness that is permanently stripped of its ability to analyze and understand itself. There would be silence to be sure, but it would be a silence of death, not life.

Bliss is as the Buddha says
At peace because of wisdom
Of impermanence and emptiness
One now is liberated to hear
The conscience of wisdom
That reasons what is needed
For spirit's will to be done.
Bliss is not destroyed
When conscience speaks, instead,
It is silenced for the moment
So will's reasoning can be shown.

Whoever says that the purpose of enlightenment is to stop thinking is deluded. I would ask myself, have they stopped thinking so they can make this claim? The answer is obvious.
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Kunga
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Re: Bliss

Post by Kunga »

movingalways wrote:Whoever says that the purpose of enlightenment is to stop thinking is deluded.
Who the fuck said that ?
You empty your mind of thoughts and thinking so you can see clearly.
When there are waves and ripples in a pond, you can't see the bottom.
Thoughts are concepts, concepts are dualistic.

The purpose of Enlightenment is to realize THE TRUTH .
In order to realize THE TRUTH , you need to stop conceptual thinking.
In order to stop conceptual thinking, you need to quiet the mind.
Quieting the mind can entail many various methods.

People "get Enlightened" in various ways.
Enlightenment Is always there...like the sun, when clouds disappear....
Clouds are similar to thoughts, or defilements.

Was Buddha thinking about shit when he became Enlightened ?
NO. He was meditating. When you meditate properly thoughts disappear !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi

http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhistme ... amadhi.htm

"In absolute samadhi, in complete falling away of body and mind, there is no reflection and no recollection. In a sense, there is no 'experience' because there is a complete merging of subject and object, or a perfect recognition of already existing non-separation. There is no way of describing what is or was going on."

Here's a good one :

http://www.shinzen.org/Articles/artEmptyMind.htm


Then the Zen use of koans :

In the Rinzai school of Zen, a student is given a particular koan to "solve" in his zazen practice. Most koans involve a paradox that cannot be solved by reason or intellect. The resolution forces the student into a different level of consciousness or comprehension.
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Kunga
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Re: Bliss

Post by Kunga »

"What's the sound of one hand clapping " ?

Makes you stop and think, then your thinking stops !

http://sacred-texts.com/bud/glg/index.htm
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Bliss

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

The tradition of the koan is foremost about commenting on it, to establish "lineage" or at least insight into the essentials of thought, language and meaning (but what's the difference). The essence of the koan is therefore the interaction within the whole moment it is taking place in and not to use it as some carpet bombing of the other or to "stop" anything like nihilists would have it. Any anti-intellectual Zen fundamentalism with its "simple formula" and "literal interpretations" is something to be avoided unless one just needs another stick to whack the questioning mole.
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Mirror Mirror, who the fuck said that?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Whoever says that the purpose of enlightenment is to stop thinking is deluded.
Who the fuck said that ?
The purpose of Enlightenment is to realize THE TRUTH .
In order to realize THE TRUTH , you need to stop conceptual thinking.
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Kunga
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Re: Bliss

Post by Kunga »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:The essence of the koan is therefore the interaction within the whole moment it is taking place in
Yes, and in that moment, your thoughts stay focused, so, it is like controlling wandering thoughts, to disapline the wild horse mind....

The reference to "stop thinking" that I sometimes allude to , is not to stop thinking totally in ones daily life & activities...but in order to make room for the benefits of letting intuition or insights, or enlightenment, to shine some light in that dark space vibrating insessantly with noise/chatter/clutter.

Everyone (I would hope), can feel the benefits of silence, of walking in a forest, being by yourself in a boat in the middle of lake, being alone by yourself, relaxing without interference....these are times when you can think clearly, or not think...but to rest, relax, enjoy the peace and serenity...

Sleeping at night relaxes body/mind.
Meditation during the day, being aware, not asleep, will help to pause the body/mind , so it will slow down and realize a few things it missed....to stop and smell the roses....
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Kunga
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Re: Bliss

Post by Kunga »

Leyla...
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