Enlightened! Really?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
User avatar
Cahoot
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Cahoot »

User avatar
Kunga
Posts: 2333
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:04 am
Contact:

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Kunga »

I never did see that movie Cahoot...but yes...poor poor thing...
the tao that can be named.. is not the eternal tao...
here comes the silence again....


the ineffable silence....


in·ef·fa·ble
inˈefəbəl/Submit
adjective
adjective: ineffable
1.
too great or extreme to be expressed or described in words.
"the ineffable natural beauty of the Everglades"
synonyms: indescribable, inexpressible, beyond words, beyond description, begging description; indefinable, unutterable, untold, unimaginable; overwhelming, breathtaking, awesome, marvelous, wonderful, staggering, amazing
"the ineffable, surging joy of the Beatles"
unutterable, not to be uttered, not to be spoken, unmentionable, forbidden, taboo
"the ineffable name of God"
not to be uttered.
"the ineffable Hebrew name that gentiles write as Jehovah"
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Kunyab wrote:Sorry Diebert, it is just that I feel that our world have grown so apart. I living in this earth, whereas he has gone off to a different reality. I thought that other people who are more familiar with these things can help me drill some sense into him.
And you select a random place on the Internet for that? Most people go to marriage counseling when they lost communication with their husband. If you cannot share core values (like some shared reality) then you're spitting against the wind.
I think that his enlightenment is too theoretical as you say. As you I also feel that asceticism is integral to enlightenment.
Well, test him out and live temporally elsewhere. I'm sure he's enlightened enough to cope for a while or see the error of his way (if any). You appear as a worried servant here, not as proud individual with your own life. There might be a connection to his behavior if it's theoretical or too idealistic. Perhaps you can become a profound challenge for him. And it might do everyone a favor. But I'm not sure you're telling the whole story. Spouses would not look for "advice" this way, it would be extremely odd but I don't mind playing along with the story. Why are his personal beliefs even a problem to be solved or understood?
Kunyab
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:03 am

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Kunyab »

Kunga wrote:I don't know...I can't imagine what Kunyab is going through...
I always dreamed of having an Enlightened yogi to be my husband...
Kunga its not like there is anything wrong, I am just concerned. After all one does not want near and dear ones to be delusional.
First of all I am very skeptical by nature, things such as enlightenment seem too mythical to be true.
Secondly it is hard to imagine the effects of enlightenment over time. Will he become like a Buddha or Ramana and leave the family.
I feel Kunyab should try to be more understanding and supportive. It is rare to find anyone truely interested in truth and spiritual matters in this world.
I should be perhaps. But spiritual pursuits can lead one to be less attached and engaged in the world. This has not happened with him so far but I fear for it.
One thing for sure...if he is Enlightened...he should be more loving and supportive of her .
She is very frustrated with him.
Yes, we don't know the whole story....poor Kunyab comes here seeking advice/help.
He is very calm and caring but he treats emotions as disturbances which obstruct clarity. To me emotions are an integral part of being in a family.

He says all is one, so then why would he care for me and our family more than the neighbors say.

A saint may not make a good householder.

The gist is this I feel that either he is enlightened or not. If not then he is delusional which is a cause for concern.
If yes then a worldly life is quite at odds with enlightenment and I worry for the future.

Maybe I am too much of a worrier.
User avatar
Kunga
Posts: 2333
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:04 am
Contact:

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Kunga »

Kunyab wrote: I am just concerned.
Yes, he is your husband, and you should be.

I'm sure this is hard to talk about with friends and family ...thus you felt the need to come here . Not all here are qualified to give you advice...including myself. I am just a romantic, with a little bit of level-headedness.

As far as emotions go...they can be obstacles in some cases...sometimes they are useful too. Women tend to display their emotions more easily than men, men keep their emotions inside...until they burst in a fit of anger or violence.

In many traditions it is crucial to have a teacher or guide when on the path to Enlightenment. They can help keep things in check...as the ego is a trickster. Sadly enough it is very hard to find Enlightened or qualified teachers, most people prefer to go it alone, as their egos couldn't take what it takes to maintain a student-disciple relationship.

Anyways......you seem to be very level-headed, pragmatic/logical. My heart goes out to you !


_/\_
Dennis Mahar
Posts: 4082
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

the ineffable silence....
on contact the only name or thought is 'true friend'.
buddy.
very nice.
projection into mind.
mind blowing.
Spirit.
Dennis Mahar
Posts: 4082
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Kunga,
she opens up an Inquiry into her husband.
lays a charge against him.

she doesn't flesh out the situation.
we have to lead the witness to get at it.

still unclear except she's not in the Joy Chair which means an error in thinking.

basically it's a concern about victimhood, a possible perp (hubby/enlightenment/herbie goes bananas) and looking for rescue.
your heart goes out to her because you are rescuer-oriented in any drama.
why bruise the heart for what is conditional?

herbie goes bananas!
WTF!
what about me!
(subtext)
Pam Seeback
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:40 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Kunga wrote:Yes...but there still remains something that exists, even when nothing inherently exists.


!
Bingo. And when you give the something a name or names, you come to life! It is who or what you are in that very moment. Conscious living, conscious being. This way you discover for yourself, directly, via mirror wisdom, what 'something' is right for you and what 'something' is not right for you. Know Thyself. Can't do it without concepts (conditions) of I am.

This only happens when all concepts of I am that have been given to one by others (parents, teachers, friends, enemies) are purged outta the naming system. When you get to this point, all the fuss about inherent and emptiness falls away. I am That I am. Simple.
User avatar
Cahoot
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Cahoot »

Gunga wrote:I never did see that movie Cahoot...but yes...“Poor, Poor Thing”
It’s a stand-alone clip. Sums up the movie.

But, serious question. Why all the periods?
Dennis Mahar
Posts: 4082
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I am That I am
a little cork bobbing on the ocean of consciousness.
in the grip of.
User avatar
Kunga
Posts: 2333
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:04 am
Contact:

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Kunga »

Cahoot wrote:Why all the periods?

Because I'm... fertile
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Kunga wrote:
Cahoot wrote:Why all the periods?

Because I'm... fertile
Bloody funny! Or too much trailing open-endedness. Female thinking....?
User avatar
Kunga
Posts: 2333
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:04 am
Contact:

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Kunga »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Kunga wrote:
Cahoot wrote:Why all the periods?

Because I'm... fertile
Bloody funny! Or too much trailing open-endedness. Female thinking....?

Fe = Iron

Ironmale thinking ?

:)


When talking....don't you pause ?
This is the natural rhythm of my voice...when I type..it's how I talk....the "trailing off" is simply how speech dissolves after it is spoken......if it's a breathy iron male thing...i don't know......or maybe it's just a bad habit.......atleastidontwritelikejamesjoycehahaha........
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Kunga wrote:Fe = Iron

Ironmale thinking ?
Interesting, I looked it up. the word woman comes from wif-man. A male person would be "wer-man". But fem comes from femina literally "she who suckles," from root of felare "to suck, suckle".
You're sorry you even mentioned it now I suppose.
When talking....don't you pause ? This is the natural rhythm of my voice...when I type..it's how I talk....the "trailing off" is simply how speech dissolves after it is spoken......if it's a breathy iron male thing...i don't know......or maybe it's just a bad habit.......atleastidontwritelikejamesjoycehahaha........
For me it's odd trying to write how I talk. Just as it's odd for me the idea that I'd talk how I think. They seem to be all completely different worlds to me. That's just me perhaps but generally it's easier for others to understand you if some degree of formality and structure is being applied. As rule of thumb any consistent disorganized and stream of consciousness writing serves the ego, the writer and hardly anything more than that.
Pam Seeback
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:40 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
I am That I am
a little cork bobbing on the ocean of consciousness.
in the grip of.
Yep, that sounds about right.
Dennis Mahar
Posts: 4082
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Trust in the Infinite.
What is conditional is unreliable and a possibility of wonderfulness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxgNgOMEDtM[url][/url]
User avatar
Kunga
Posts: 2333
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:04 am
Contact:

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Kunga »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:You're sorry you even mentioned it now I suppose.
LOL
Dosn't really bother me one way or another.
I'll try not to use ellipses so much. I do write as I think and speak. I do write "stream-of-consciousness"
It will be a challenge for me.
I guess I don't feel self conscious about how I write.
Dennis Mahar
Posts: 4082
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Diebert likes to mother.
bliss.
User avatar
Cahoot
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Cahoot »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Diebert likes to mother.
bliss.
I think what you’re sensing is just a diminishing of,
A deficit of …
For the purpose of …

I always read the dot dot dot thing as an implicit writer’s assertion of, “I could just say so much more …,” And when seeing the dots I would think, maybe that’s not true. I mean, let it rip from time to time, then you don't have to wonder, or even imagine. This is the realm of the written word, such are the burdens and limitations of critical thinking, but then again, masterpieces from the hand of man are always in frames …
User avatar
ardy
Posts: 341
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:44 am

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by ardy »

Kunyab wrote:So my husband claims to be enlightened. He had always been interested in spiritual stuff and some of this is part of our traditions as Hindus. However, enlightenment is a very rare occurence and mostly confined to people who have gone through a very strong spiritual experience or have a completely detached ascetic life.
None of which has happened in his case.

I find it very hard to digest that he is enlightened now.

Searching more on this stuff I came to this forum, and ask what you guys think of him, is he just fooling himself?

He has been writing about this stuff at vedantademystified at the blogspot site. This site will not allow me to post the URL believing that I am a spammer.

I am just interested in knowing if what he says seems true or just a fiction his mind has invented to escape into a convenient reality.
Fairly simple to test at some level anyway. Get him to write a poem defining his enlightenment then post it here. Not sure there is anyone enlightened here either and if you don't get solid replies then send it to a major Buddhist monastery addressed to the Abbott and see what they have to say.

If he gets stuck give him this as one of many examples:

Without Name and Form

Well versed in the Buddha way,

I go the non-Way

Without abandoning my

Ordinary person's affairs.

The conditioned and

Name-and-form,

All are flowers in the sky.

Nameless and formless,

I leave birth-and-death.

P'ang Yün (龐蘊 Hõ Un)


OR maybe this one might be more appropriate:

Suchness

The wind traverses the vast sky,

clouds emerge from the mountains;

Feelings of enlightenment and things of the world

are of no concern at all.

Zen Master Keizan Jõkin (瑩山紹瑾 1268-1325)
Last edited by ardy on Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dennis Mahar
Posts: 4082
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

It's a kind of an art to get out of the personality.
Diebert's act looks like 'to that end' using oppose, oppose, oppose.

Housekeeping.

His salient point aforementioned is he takes his own scalp first.

Hi Jinx.
User avatar
Cahoot
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Cahoot »

Diebert wrote:For me it's odd trying to write how I talk. Just as it's odd for me the idea that I'd talk how I think. They seem to be all completely different worlds to me. That's just me perhaps but generally it's easier for others to understand you if some degree of formality and structure is being applied. As rule of thumb any consistent disorganized and stream of consciousness writing serves the ego, the writer and hardly anything more than that.
That’s interesting. Eventually thoughtful people speak as they write. Does the enlightened one speak as he writes? If so, we could premise that enlightenment and thoughtfulness are somehow related. Perhaps, by logic?
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Kunga wrote:I guess I don't feel self conscious about how I write.
We are what we write? Self-consciousness is hard and not always helpful to prosper as doubt creeps in. Self-consciousness can be a bliss destroyer just as easily as destroyer of self-ignorance. There's something here I'd call "sufficiency" as one can go easily overboard with streaming as well as with structures and elaboration. Most people are a bit off kilter.
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Cahoot wrote:Eventually thoughtful people speak as they write.
Of course one could deliver written or studied lines but that's not the same as talking in the broader sense as I had in mind including any casual, spontaneous and non-verbal elements which Kunga referred to.
User avatar
Cahoot
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

Re: Enlightened! Really?

Post by Cahoot »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Cahoot wrote:Eventually thoughtful people speak as they write.
Of course one could deliver written or studied lines but that's not the same as talking in the broader sense as I had in mind including any casual, spontaneous and non-verbal elements which Kunga referred to.
Pychyl (2009) notes distinctions between mindfulness and self-consciousness. Speaking as one writes would be more along the lines of mindfulness, which is often a slower, more deliberate way of speaking, as one is actually writing with the spoken word as opposed to making sounds associated with random thoughts floating into awareness. This is different than speaking self-consciously, which in the extreme could result in a stammer.

The quality stream-of-consciousness writing by a Joyce or Kerouac could well be a product of mindfulness, whereas egoistic indulgence would be a different breed of writing.

Reference

Pychyl, T. (2009). Mindfulness and task persistence: not all self-awareness is a good thing. Psychology Today. Referenced from http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/don ... good-thing
Locked