Pinpointing the Ego

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Pinpointing the Ego

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Orenholt wrote:I do mean "promoting well being" though it could be compared to the god like love. I never said it was "uncaused".
Well being for whom and projected in which kind of future time frame? And if it's not uncaused it's not unconditional, which is just one popular description of agape love. It's important to realize which the conditions are when talking about such catch all term like "love" or even "well being". Knowing the conditions might help in defining what it is we're talking about. That's all I'm saying really.
But there would be no reason to be a mass murderer or pedophile if you have all those needs met is there?
Are you trying to define all undesired behavior as caused by some material or psychological "lack" in the present or past? Perhaps it could be said to be a factor, like smoking is a factor in lung cancer. But it seems you're looking for a simple formula here. It seems to me that all humans suffer deep down a serious psychological "lack" or "twist", perhaps simply because of the speed in which our consciousness and society developed in relation to our animal instincts and needs. Animal instincts which by the way generally would include behavior ruled by anxieties and desires, brought about by pure drive even when the food would be plenty; study for example the wild and captured predators. There might not be any true pacifier in our current state but there are lots of make-believe and drug states available so we can at least carry on. That's the reality of the world around us, with no one there who can really tell you what "health" really means, only that we tend to agree on what appears to be "problematic" behavior often couched in terms of security for your self and people you care about.
Greed? greed for what? You already have everything. Same with desire.
Then the fear to lose that, which would fuel similar behavior. But as I argued for above, even that suggested satisfaction appears to be nothing but a popular make-believe.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Pinpointing the Ego

Post by Pam Seeback »

Cahoot wrote:
Orenholt wrote:
Cahoot wrote:It’s a knowing that comes from realizing equanimity.
But why is that incompatible with love and happiness?

Stable is stable.

You can be in a stable state of sadness or in a stable state of joy.
Love, joy, happiness, assumptions and sadness, all swirl around equanimity.
The moment one is conscious of things swirling, equanimity goes out the window. When one is sad, one IS sad. When one is joyful, one IS joyful. Law of identity. No swirling.
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Cahoot
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Re: Pinpointing the Ego

Post by Cahoot »

The movement (swirling) of the universe, for all phenomena, is a movement towards balance, which is the gyroscopic stillness caused by motion. Change is movement, movement is noted in relation to equanimity. Sadness and happiness are changes that come and go, and as such are movements (swirling) towards balance. Even if a movement appears to be moving away from balance, this away-ness is perceived due to the limited perspective of particular relationship, but in the gestalt is movement towards motionless balance. The equanimitous balance of natural forces (even the forces of emotion) is the natural stillness of motion, such as the moment of suspension when gravity overtakes velocity towards orbit (both metaphorically and actually). Though it may not always be perceived equanimity always is, though the movement of forces such as sadness and happiness towards equanimity come and go, swirling and twirling, oh yes. ;)

"And I have known the eyes already, known them all—
The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase,
And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,
Then how should I begin
To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?
And how should I presume?"
Pam Seeback
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:40 pm

Re: Pinpointing the Ego

Post by Pam Seeback »

Cahoot: Sadness and happiness are changes that come and go, and as such are movements (swirling) towards balance.
You're making me dizzy. :-)
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Orenholt
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Re: Pinpointing the Ego

Post by Orenholt »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Orenholt wrote:I do mean "promoting well being" though it could be compared to the god like love. I never said it was "uncaused".
Well being for whom and projected in which kind of future time frame? And if it's not uncaused it's not unconditional, which is just one popular description of agape love. It's important to realize which the conditions are when talking about such catch all term like "love" or even "well being". Knowing the conditions might help in defining what it is we're talking about. That's all I'm saying really.
Oh I see. I merely meant that the body's experience of agape love was caused. And I mean well being for as many as possible for as long as possible.
But there would be no reason to be a mass murderer or pedophile if you have all those needs met is there?
Are you trying to define all undesired behavior as caused by some material or psychological "lack" in the present or past? Perhaps it could be said to be a factor, like smoking is a factor in lung cancer. But it seems you're looking for a simple formula here. It seems to me that all humans suffer deep down a serious psychological "lack" or "twist", perhaps simply because of the speed in which our consciousness and society developed in relation to our animal instincts and needs. Animal instincts which by the way generally would include behavior ruled by anxieties and desires, brought about by pure drive even when the food would be plenty; study for example the wild and captured predators. There might not be any true pacifier in our current state but there are lots of make-believe and drug states available so we can at least carry on. That's the reality of the world around us, with no one there who can really tell you what "health" really means, only that we tend to agree on what appears to be "problematic" behavior often couched in terms of security for your self and people you care about.
Yes, I am saying that undesired behavior is caused by a lack and yes, I agree that it is due to our genetics.
The lack I describe most is the lack of truth that people have.

Greed? greed for what? You already have everything. Same with desire.
Then the fear to lose that, which would fuel similar behavior. But as I argued for above, even that suggested satisfaction appears to be nothing but a popular make-believe.
The idea of dissatisfaction is a popular make-believe.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Pinpointing the Ego

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Orenholt wrote:Oh I see. I merely meant that the body's experience of agape love was caused.
Love is not an experience of the body as such! Certainly not "agape", at least in the traditional usage this is metaphysical. Perhaps it would be interesting to call it: the love connected to "no-experience" and therefore "no-expectation". But is that still "love"? It probably won't be recognized that way very often. Simply because there would be expectations in place.
And I mean well being for as many as possible for as long as possible.
Like love, this kind of well being only exists because of selection. You pick a being and when it has to happen: your particular "framing". Some way broader stroke here seems delusional and denies even logically the possibility of "wellness" or "love". Unless it would involve "no-being" - for obvious reasons.
Yes, I am saying that undesired behavior is caused by a lack and yes, I agree that it is due to our genetics.
You appear as having a hard time accepting the utter randomness of occurrences we can see every day around us. One "shock to the system" and resulting behavior could be undesired for those surrounding the affected person. But is it a lack in the "shocked" brain or is the environment lacking in possibilities to accommodate the change? Sometimes neurons just fire because they can; structures collapsing because of multitude of "causes". Or sometimes problems arise out of surplus and not of some lack. There appears to be some kind of nervousness, some upset in place even in the most "satisfied" being which could lead to destruction again. The idea of decadence is a nice illustration of this.
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