Email to Sam Harris:

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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jupiviv wrote:Delusion *is* meaningless. That's the whole point of calling it delusion as opposed to knowledge of reality.
This connects truth with meaning in some interesting way.
jupiviv wrote:A deluded person wrongly believes a deluded action to be in accordance with a true thought. He wrongly thinks so either because the thought is false (ignorance), or because he is not acting in accordance with it (hypocrisy). The action itself is necessarily real, unlike the thought, which may be illogical and hence unreal.
Yes although the action itself, being "necessarily real" as you called it, would always remain beyond truth and false because it's the contextual interpretation where all evaluation would be happening. But since this always will have some degree of relavity and uncertainty attached, the delusion only becomes really completely manifest in the full abstracted thought. Especially when it comes to absolutes!
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Yes although the action itself, being "necessarily real" as you called it, would always remain beyond truth and false
I think that should be called the delusion of action, i.e, the delusion that one is acting a certain way, as opposed to another. But whether one is wise or foolish, one is always acting in some way or another.
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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A deluded person wrongly believes a deluded action to be in accordance with a true thought [...] because he is not acting in accordance with it (hypocrisy).
Pardon?
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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One may be ignorant of one's own hypocrisy, e.g due to one's eagerness to point it out in others. Plank, brother, and all that.
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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There are only so many ways one can dress up banal Christian morality, it appears.
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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There are even fewer ways that one can express one's irrational and *irrelevant* dislike of Christian terminology.

By a fellow paynim, no less. Your name suggests you are Turkish. I am an eighteenth generation Brahmin whose early ancestors probably engaged in ritual monkey sex in temples on a regular basis. That makes me about 150% less Christian than even you, oh Ottoman crone.
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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My, my—what a large, bruised ego you have!

Would you like to address the issue, or continue with your oh-so eloquent, ad hom twaddle? I mean, I did assume you had something of substance to say in the beginning. I could have had that wrong, of course.

So, I'll ask you again:
A deluded person wrongly believes a deluded action to be in accordance with a true thought [...] because he is not acting in accordance with it (hypocrisy).
Pardon?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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Leyla Shen wrote:My, my—what a large, bruised ego you have! ... your oh-so eloquent, ad hom twaddle
L.O.L.
  • For the study of woman (and man) is really the study of the ego and how it manifests in the world. I put it to you that everything a woman does obstructs the growth of wisdom. This is no exaggeration. Indeed, part of her egotism consists precisely of giving the impression that she possesses little or no egotism. Female egotism is disguised, concealed, hard to perceive - but then, the art of concealment is part and parcel of a woman's egotism. -- David Quinn
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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ego is concealed
in the depths of inner space
where man finds pleasure
Leyla Shen
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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Yes, I like to poke at crossdressers. It gives me a good deal of pleasure.
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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This has all been explained a long time ago. No need to rephrase it again.
  • If women were really concerned with the state of the world, if they were in the least bit serious about the task of eliminating the causes of our problems, if they were to possess even the merest speck of genuineness in their "movement", then they would be attacking their own egotism at least as much as they so enthusiastically attack the male's.

    But women are as far from this as they can possibly be. Their only concern is to increase the satisfaction and pleasure of their own egotism. -- David Quinn
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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Might I point out that I was addressing the ad hom in jupiviv's last post. That you considered your excerpts from what I said to be about my attacking male egotism says more about your brand of it than mine, dear.
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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I mean, you know, if you were going to defend him you might well have chosen to explain the statement I queried. I guess that was a little too much to ask for in the course of a discussion when you're so busy trying to point out--what was it? My lack of seriousness?
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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I just love how you all come together at the mere mention of the word Christianity!
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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Leyla Shen wrote:Might I point out that I was addressing the ad hom in jupiviv's last post. That you considered your excerpts from what I said to be about my attacking male egotism says more about your brand of it than mine, dear.
You mean "Ottoman crone"? It seems you still haven't understood the meaning of "ad hominem". It only becomes that if there's no other actual argument being made, as if the whole reply relies on the evaluation of a person, especially a supposed character flaw which would taint that person's argument being made. You made a post which only contained a remark on his bruised ego as reason for your dismissal of his argument, compared to Jup's insulting remark about the "Ottoman crone" which was stuffed on top of his argument that "Christian morality" would not likely apply to someone raised in India in a Hindu culture. In that context it's perhaps rude to call someone a crone but not ad hominem, since his argument is not changing if you'd change it to "Ottoman maiden".

I hope you understand the difference and understand why you have misapplied yet again the term in your desire to score in your hunt for little pleasures. And it's not clear to me what your definition is of "Christian morality" despite some vague link to a video. You brought it up after Jupiviv referred to a saying known within and beyond Judaism ("plank, brother") but the plank phenomenon is better known as projection. Check your psychoanalysis, sister. And since you invited a comment on the original lines:
Jupiviv wrote:A deluded person wrongly believes a deluded action to be in accordance with a true thought. He wrongly thinks so either because the thought is false (ignorance), or because he is not acting in accordance with it (hypocrisy). The action itself is necessarily real, unlike the thought, which may be illogical and hence unreal.
The action itself, being "necessarily real" as you called it, would always remain beyond truth and false because it's the contextual interpretation where all evaluation would be happening. But since this always will have some degree of relavity and uncertainty attached, the delusion only becomes really completely manifest in the fully abstracted thought. Especially when it comes to absolutes!
Oops, I already wrote that on the 19th. I guess you didn't read it!
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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Leyla Shen wrote:I just love how you all come together at the mere mention of the word Christianity!

Touched a nerve, didn't I?

I apologise for the unnecessary "Ottoman crone" remark, but your notion about me being a closet Christian is beyond moronic.

Only an advanced state of neo-atheist myopia would have caused you to accuse me of expressing "banal Christian morality" just because I referred to a common Christian proverb.

I promise I didn't do so to spite you, but rather to point out that it is possible for someone to think he is acting in harmony with his thoughts, while not actually doing so. I pointed it out because apparently you find it ludicrous for me to say that a deluded person can wrongly believe his actions to be in accordance with his thoughts even when they are not. I was referring of course to *unconscious* hypocrisy.
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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You excel at gossip Diebert!
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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Touched a nerve, didn't I?
Grow up, you idiot!
I apologise for the unnecessary "Ottoman crone" remark, but your notion about me being a closet Christian is beyond moronic.


That wasn't my notion, it was yours. I asked for clarification, you came back with more nonsense and a casual reference to some Christian teaching as if it explained everythng. Re-read it without your own deluded assumptions (if you can).
Only an advanced state of neo-atheist myopia would have caused you to accuse me of expressing "banal Christian morality" just because I referred to a common Christian proverb.
And only early onset dementia would cause you to not only repeat banal Christian proverbs but to also keep rambling on and on without any comprehension of the real situation.
I promise I didn't do so to spite you, but rather to point out that it is possible for someone to think he is acting in harmony with his thoughts, while not actually doing so. I pointed it out because apparently you find it ludicrous for me to say that a deluded person can wrongly believe his actions to be in accordance with his thoughts even when they are not. I was referring of course to *unconscious* hypocrisy.
What a waste of time.

This is what you said:
A deluded person wrongly believes a deluded action to be in accordance with a true thought [...] because he is not acting in accordance with it (hypocrisy).
Explain to me how a deluded person can "have a true thought" but act against it while thinking he is acting in accordance with it. I particularly want to know how you think it is that he could be considered as having a true thought in these circumstances.
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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Leyla Shen wrote:I asked for clarification, you came back with more nonsense and a casual reference to some Christian teaching as if it explained everythng. Re-read it without your own deluded assumptions (if you can).
The Christian reference was meant to be just that - a reference. I clarified what I meant adequately. You were the one who said it was an expression of banal Christian morality for no apparent reason than that it was a common Christian proverb quoted by generations of atheists, agnostics and Christians alike.
Explain to me how a deluded person can "have a true thought" but act against it while thinking he is acting in accordance with it.

Why are you quoting that same sentence over and over again, instead of my direct explanations of it in subsequent posts like the previous?

Regardless, I shall smack this dead pig once more. Just because a person is being hypocritical (consciously or unconsciously) does not mean that he is wrong about the principles/facts he falsely claims guides his actions. A person may understand perfectly well that smoking is bad for his health, and claim (falsely or sincerely) to value his health highly, and go on smoking nonetheless, all at the same time. This is normal, everyday human behaviour.
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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jupiviv wrote: I shall smack this dead pig once more.
Stop referencing that old European immorality!
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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Leyla Shen wrote:You excel at gossip Diebert!
Dismissing my fact-based and educative correction with another slur (with unclear meaning). You're really melting down on this forum, aren't you? Some kind of suicidal pit you're digging.
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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Regardless, I shall smack this dead pig once more. Just because a person is being hypocritical (consciously or unconsciously) does not mean that he is wrong about the principles/facts he falsely claims guides his actions.
Rubbish. If a person is "unconsciously hypocritical" he necessarily has no conception about the truth of the claim; he is deluded. If a person is being "consciously hypocritical", then he knowingly acts contrary to a truth and it is that fact that makes him a hypocrite.
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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Leyla Shen wrote:Rubbish. If a person is "unconsciously hypocritical" he necessarily has no conception about the truth of the claim

He may be aware of the truth of the claim, and simultaneously be ignorant of the fact that his actions are not in accordance with it in any given instance. E.g., he may believe that any addiction is bad, but nevertheless be addicted to gambling without even knowing that he is addicted.
If a person is being "consciously hypocritical", then he knowingly acts contrary to a truth and it is that fact that makes him a hypocrite.

Yes, he knowingly acts contrary to the truth, which means he knows the truth. That makes his action contrary to that true thought.
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Re: Email to Sam Harris:

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He may be aware of the truth of the claim, and simultaneously be ignorant of the fact that his actions are not in accordance with it in any given instance. E.g., he may believe that any addiction is bad, but nevertheless be addicted to gambling without even knowing that he is addicted.
Yes, which, as I said earlier, is why one's definitions must be empirically supported; the concrete and the abstract are interdependent (deluded interpretations of them, or otherwise), not mutually exclusive.

Otherwise, one is likely to continue with such a delusion and not notice how many bottles of beer one is drinking.
No matter how many apples I observe, I cannot judge whether they are red or green or edible without using definitions of redness, greenness or edibility formulated beforehand and without the direct aid of observation.
How else could one arrive, for instance, here:
Yes, he knowingly acts contrary to the truth, which means he knows the truth. That makes his action contrary to that true thought.
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