Is it not time to make the two one?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

What you said there is a thang about causes/conditions.
emptiness cannot be refuted.
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Urizen
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Urizen »

Dennis Mahar wrote:What you said there is a thang about causes/conditions.
emptiness cannot be refuted.
The 'emptiness' (beyond-reality) of which you speak is a sensory image (though a negative one) with no referrent in reality itself. It is precisely because of its nondual nature, that beyond-reality is not a nullification of the dualism inherent in reality. True, the Real emerged from the night of beyond-reality; it is one substance, as it were, with beyond-reality. But the real is still real; there is within the infinite substance of beyond-reality a "portion" of reality, so to speak. We transcend dualism: to nullify it would be to exclude this 'portion' of the divine substance. We do not nullify what is by transcending it. Anyone who has told you otherwise, is lying.
Last edited by Urizen on Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

It's wonderful to be free of bullshit.
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Urizen
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Urizen »

Dennis Mahar wrote:It's wonderful to be free of bullshit.
That wonderful feeling is vanity, not enlighenment.
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Pam Seeback
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Dennis: Look at an object for 10 minutes and then descibe it.

to say I am absolute is to say I am a category.
or
I am that I am categorical in relation to another category.
script
words
concepts
I'm not talking about looking at an object and describing it, one cannot be an object. A dog's nature is a dog's nature. The sun's nature is the sun's nature. A man's nature is a man's nature, which is his knowledge of cause and effect. What makes a man absolute is his active will born of wisdom of effects of a cause. For example, I see a dog wounded on the road. The action I take is the cause of the effects of my encounter with the wounded dog. In other words, man's be-ing is his absolute nature. When it comes from wisdom, it consciously causes what is good (what does not intentionally cause suffering). Using the example of the dog, I would empathize with his suffering which would cause me to act. The nature of my empathy would not be bliss, it would be knowledge of pain.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Dennis Mahar wrote:What you said there is a thang about causes/conditions.
emptiness cannot be refuted.
Expanding on what I said above, knowledge of emptiness does not nullify knowledge of cause and effect and of having to act according to that knowledge.
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Urizen
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Urizen »

movingalways wrote:Expanding on what I said above, knowledge of emptiness does not nullify knowledge of cause and effect and of having to act according to that knowledge.
Indeed. It is also the Light, and the Light alone, that sees both Light and Darkness. Darkness is blind and sees not even its own darkness; it has only the deeper darkness, which is the night of nothingness. Darkness may mistake this nothingness for 'Emptiness' and 'Nondual Awareness', but real Emptiness is all Light. Its eye is the Invisible Light that is common to Light and Dark. Invisible Light is transcending, not blind Darkness. Nondualism is reached through dualism. Not by minds indifferent or nihilistic.

Implicit in Genesis, is the idea that God created good and evil, and saw that they were Good. So there is the dualism of good-evil, and a higher Good that transcends good-evil. But note: the higher Good is related to the lesser good (lower case). In other words, only the good are enlightened. Not the indifferent, much less the wicked and the impure. And it is the nature of the good to hate everything evil. The enlightened despise the darkness even while they see through it and beyond it.

The enlightened man knows he is a creatures of light. He know his role in the Grand Drama. To forsake that role, say by embracing nihilism, would be impossible to him; it would be to forsake his own nature, as well as any knowledge of the higher Good.

Therefore, any 'guru' who would lead his followers to believe that there is no truth, or no good and evil because all dualities are nullified or reconciled, is lying.

If any legimate teachers say to stop thinking in dualisms, it is so that you will think in dualism. Like being told not to think of the colour blue. It is merely a strategem, not some profound truth. Unfortunately, it is not a good strategem for spiritual seekers in modern Western civilisation, because it easily slides into nihilism, which is the very negation of spirituality. It is an approach better suited to the Eastern mind, to speak generally. For Westerners it is spiritually dangerous.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Dualism isn't denied here.
it's declared to be imputed, a mental formation, imaginery.
empty of its own nature.

that's not nihilism.

the mind is empty,
everchanging.
God
it comes down to wholes and parts analysis.
wholes are comprised of parts.
the wholes cannot be seen in the parts or independent of the parts.

There must be wholes otherwise we can't talk about parts.

imputing mind formulating, generating, calling up, making ground to stand on.
Tool-Being.

Genesis speaks Generator.
To turn generator into a noun (Genesis) is where it got stuck in the mud.

no thing exists independent of mind deeming so.

thought, word, deed.
machinery.
Tool-Being.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Some of the religious people I talk to recognise their response is conditional.
an act of faith.
they 'own' up.

somehow they hit the panic button at a point and in 'owning up' get clear on it.
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Urizen
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Urizen »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Dualism isn't denied here.
it's declared to be imputed, a mental formation, imaginery.
empty of its own nature.
no thing exists independent of mind deeming so.
While Dualism is experienced in the Mind, it neither originates nor is confined to the Mind. There are degrees of reality that are intermediate between the Mind and the Divine. Dualism originates on the ontological level, which soars far above the Mind, while being immediately below the nondual Supreme Reality. These intermediate levels must be surmounted and transcended as well. To stop at the Mind would only give one an illusion of transcendence. In fact it could be spiritually dangerous, for there are illusions above the Mind which are of a malevolent nature.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Get off the bong.
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Urizen
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Urizen »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Get off the bong.
Drugs are to be shunned.

And just as seductive as any drug is the illusion of transcendence. It is more addictive than opium.

Stop getting high off feelings of 'emptiness'. It is all illusion and distraction.

And the mind itself is not transcended without first 'orienting' itself in the right direction, which means sound doctrine and practice. Not shunning ideas, concepts, 'labels', etc. as mere rubbish of the 'conceptual mind'. No, they are essential in directing the mind beyond itself. Without sound doctrine, there is no navigation system.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Everything you say is mentioning some kind of condition and cause uri.

emptiness cannot be refuted.
it's a rollin' and tumblin' outa you dear.
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Urizen
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Urizen »

While causes are illusory*, illusion is not uniform; some illusions are closer to Reality than others. Imagine two mirrors (Dualism) facing each other, creating a series of images (Illusion). The world is the distant, blurry reflection of the original image (the Absolute). In this way, causation can be understood as proceeding from the Absolute through a series of intermediate degrees of reality before reaching the Mind. Causation is simply the reflective activity of the mirrors, which generates all illusions.

That which stands between the Mind and the Absolute, are timeless essences and archetypes. These are not mental constructs, for the Mind is of Time. The Mind knows only symbols of Essence; Essence itself is known only by pure Intuition, which is of the Essence, not of the Mind. 'Transcending' the mind alone, as for example by rejecting all 'mental formations', is not enlightenment.

As for mental constructs, which you seem to dismiss as pure illusions: while they are in themselves illusory, they can be symbolically oriented to the Supreme Reality. Nothing will be achieved by the complete rejection of all mental categories. Merging into some kind of pure sensory experience, which seems to be the anticonceptualist notion of nondual awareness, is not 'enlightenment', but an evil inversion of enlightenment: sensation is below the mind, not above it.

* 'Illusion' means nothing more than relativity and contingency. It is not, as commonly supposed, mere hallucination or fancy.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I said nothing exists absolutely,
all is contingent.

what are you protecting?
have you got a dog in the race?
Pam Seeback
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Reality is a causality, an eternal dance of cause and effect. Although causes and conditions cannot be seen, they are not illusory. There is only what is real, reality is reality. Because reality is an eternal dance of causing-effecting, there is no dualism to reconcile. Dualism is a metaphysical concept that exists prior to the enlightenment of causality.

There is nothing that is not of the causality. When the causality is conscious (wise) it is aware of different causal possibilities in relation to what will produce good effects and what will produce evil effects.
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divine focus
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by divine focus »

movingalways wrote:
Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inside as the outside, and the outside as the inside, and the upper as the lower, and when you make the male and the female into a single one, so that the male is not male and the female not female, and when you make eyes in place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then shall you enter [the kingdom].
For those who connect to the wisdom of the Gospel of Thomas the goal is clear, that of uncovering oneself of the relativity of gender identity. Which means one cannot say they know the Absolute until they make the two into a single one.

Genius dwellers, is it not time to let go of your Penis?
Men process in the head. Women process in the heart. The third gender processes in their gut. "When you make the male and the female into a single one, so that the male is not male and the female not female" means to process in all three at once. This is a result of sahaja samadhi.
eliasforum.org/digests.html
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Getoriks
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Re: Is it not time to make the two one?

Post by Getoriks »

@Urizen: Have you read Frithjof Schuon? You write very much like him.
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