Are we Religious Devotees in Denial?

[ardy]

Reading many posts here it strikes me as strange that a lot of talk is about the suchness of life and a fair amount is an attempt to put a rational face on the pig of spirituality. Are we in complete denial of our natural state due to the scientific age we live in where nothing is unknown [at least we think so]?.

Or is this site just a bunch of mostly smart people, floundering around grasping at smoke whilst staring steadfastly in the mirror?

Science or the spirit there is no common ground as one is unknowable by the senses, and the other attempts at the all knowing, without the suchness of the unknown?

[Dennis Mahar]

That's where you stand.
geddit?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

How can anyone ever talk about "unknowns" when one cannot even understand fully what can be known yet? It becomes nonsense and confusion with spiritual lipstick.

Perhaps Nisargadatta was saying something like that:

• It is the full and correct knowledge of the known that takes you to the unknown. You cannot think of it in terms of uses and advantages; to be quite detached, beyond the reach of all self-concern, all selfish consideration, is an inescapable condition of liberation. You may call it death; to me it is living at its most meaningful and intense, for I am one with life in its totality and fullness -- intensity, meaningfulness, harmony; what more do you want?
  
  The mind can talk only of what it knows. If you diligently investigate the knowable, it dissolves and only the unknowable remains. But with the first flicker of imagination and interest the unknowable is obscured and the known comes to the fore-front. The known, the changeable, is what you live with -- the unchangeable is of no use to you. It is only when you are satiated with the changeable and long for the unchangeable, that you are ready for the turning round and stepping into what can be described, when seen from the level of the mind, as emptiness and darkness.

It has nothing to do with being scientific or rational about things or not. Although if you want to investigate you cannot escape reason: there can be no "natural" state to find oneself in. And as such the notion can be dropped. You and any state are desire, the desire of being, desire for statehood. That's knowable, that's changeable.

[ardy]

Diebert - 'You and any state are desire, the desire of being, desire for statehood. That's knowable, that's changeable.' Agree with this statement BUT if the natural state is a state of grace, or an existence within the suchness of life, what has your rational thinking to do with it? I suggest nothing!

Your quote "If you diligently investigate the knowable, it dissolves and only the unknowable remains" then what is your statement about?

[ardy]

That's where you stand.
geddit?

Have no idea what you are suggesting please explain, or I will pull myself away from the mirror!

[Bobo]

The mirror is never the 100% original. Well, it is the 100% original mirror.

But this post remembered me of this:

Jules: Well, there's this passage I've got memorized, sorta fits the occasion. Ezekiel 25:17? "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon you."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE9Qm8mShik

[Dennis Mahar]

Ardy,
There are only 4 possible ways for a thing to exist.

Is........law of identity
isn't......law of non-contradiction
both is and isn't
neither is and isn't

None of those explain ultimately.
The forum founders recognise logic only goes so far.
limits to thought.
behold the mystery.

you make it mean what it means
you stand in that.

forget the mirror analogy
mirrors are inanimate.
mind is animated.

a thing is never independent of mind.
so we say it is empty from its own side and dependently arisen.

[ardy]

Ardy,
There are only 4 possible ways for a thing to exist.

Is........law of identity
isn't......law of non-contradiction
both is and isn't
neither is and isn't

None of those explain ultimately.
The forum founders recognise logic only goes so far.
limits to thought.
behold the mystery.

you make it mean what it means
you stand in that.

forget the mirror analogy
mirrors are inanimate.
mind is animated.

a thing is never independent of mind.
so we say it is empty from its own side and dependently arisen.

Dennis at a base level nothing can prove its existence, but hit your leg on a table and reality strikes home.

We can generate any level of mind thought we like but it does not make it correct, yet nobody can prove it to be incorrect until you put those thoughts into action, then cause and effect shines a light on your thinking.

[Dennis Mahar]

Imagine that.

[Pam Seeback]

Diebert: It has nothing to do with being scientific or rational about things or not. Although if you want to investigate you cannot escape reason: there can be no "natural" state to find oneself in. And as such the notion can be dropped. You and any state are desire, the desire of being, desire for statehood. That's knowable, that's changeable.

Reason takes us to the truth that all things are connected. Coming to this view brings to an ending our previous ignorant view of an independent objective reality. A false view that caused us to view ourselves as being in opposition to ourselves, i.e., unnatural/natural. To be known to oneself, to be revealed to oneself is to be without opposition of identity, I am my thing, my thing is me. I'm hungry, time to make breakfast, this is me. No big deal, simple. If you try to stop me from making breakfast, I will let you know how I feel about that, this too, is me. No big deal, simple.

[Pam Seeback]

Which puts an end to ideas such as "religious devotees in denial." No such reality of being here.

[ardy]

Which puts an end to ideas such as "religious devotees in denial." No such reality of being here.

Movingalways: You could put an end to any ideas with that assumption, but would it stop them? If there is no such reality of being 'here' - where are you?