Kelly Jones wrote:ardy wrote:KJ: No, think about the essence of identity, before any content or meaning is applied to "it", not after.
What is really holding the unchangeability of identity, is Reality itself. It has always been, and always will be: itself.
See, there is something happening right now: that is an eternal something, no matter what form or meaning it is given. That's the unchanging "it" anchoring the absoluteness and reliability of truth.
ardy: Kelly - you, movingalways and I are talking about the same hub, your assumption that logic and rationality is what is taking you there is your perception of IT. We stand on nothing, we grip on nought.
We aren't talking of the same thing at all. Your talk is that reasoning is driven by egotism, and can't show what is ultimately true. MA wants to get rid of reasoning before it has finished its work, so she can experience happiness (unconsciousness). My talk is that reasoning does show what is ultimately true, and needs to be plied diligently and uncompromisingly until the mind no longer experiences any delusions and false thoughts.
The closer you get to IT the less you can say about it.
Then stop talking.
Surely you realise that Lao Tsu was extremely close to IT yet could chatter for hours about the "Nameless Name"? Or do you think his disciples were brainless cult members who couldn't recognise their toenails from their nipples?
Reasoning
points to the fact that things don't have ultimate boundaries, and that names are convenient pointers. That's what words are. It doesn't mean they can't do their job perfectly, as pointers. Or that one has to stop using them. In fact, rather than give up words, one uses the ones that work. Ones that point to
themselves also.
If you think words delude and mislead, then you don't know their use. At some point, someone has told you, so to speak, to cut down the forest of delusion by laying aside the axe; it was a bad piece of advice.
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Lao Tzu is a semi-mythical figure from 6th century bc. Not a lot is known about him except he tried to cross the border at age 80 and was not allowed to leave until he had stated all he knew about the Tao - thus the Tao te Ching.
grabbed this one from him as a pointer to a couple of issues I have with logic and the rational mind. Q how does the logical mind deal with what Lao Tzu is saying here?
Look, it cannot be seen - it is beyond form.
Listen, it cannot be heard - it is beyond sound.
Grasp, it cannot be held - it is intangible.
These three are indefinable, they are one.
From above it is not bright;
From below it is not dark:
Unbroken thread beyond description.
It returns to nothingness.
Form of the formless,
Image of the imageless,
It is called indefinable and beyond imagination.
Stand before it - there is no beginning.
Follow it and there is no end.
Stay with the Tao, Move with the present.
Knowing the ancient beginning is the essence of Tao.
Mixing reality with the rational seems odd to me. You speak as if the rational [of an unenlightened person] is reality which I disagree with.
I never said that one should stop talking, I said the closer you get to IT the less you can speak about IT and this is accepted by most masters and I have experienced this myself. Once you are enlightened then many masters have spoken lots including Hakuin who claimed his strength was the 3".
Koans were devised to break through logic and the rational mind yet you claim that logic and rationality is the correct vehicle! I am only saying there are many vehicles, some excellent and some are bombs. You and others who think like you, may have discovered something the old masters tried to discard is actually a gem but it seems a remote possibility to me, until you prove you have passed over.
So if you want to offer me some insight into your dharma then you need to give me much more than is obvious from your posts. You strike me as a searcher like most of us here.