Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

[Kunga]

Do you think Buddha figured out how to end suffering ?
All his teachings were geared to teach how to end suffering....
Do you think he finally figured it out ?
How the could he teach something he didn't know the answers for ?

His whole purpose was to teach the ending of suffering.
Did he fail to realize this ?
He must have figured something out....
What did he figure out ?

We don't inherently exist.
If you think you exist, then you suffer.

So as long as you still cling to this body as a separate existing thing....you will feel the pain...

When you are Enlightened, you don't exist, even if you appear as existing .

It's a magical illusion.

Only the Enlightened know how to perform this trick.

[Dennis Mahar]

Yes suffering is conditional.
Thankyou.

therefore it has no intrinsic meaning.
hubba chubba
cartwheels

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Yes suffering is conditional.

Thankyou, so you may suffer every day, not an option, good work.
You may also lose all recognition of what it means that it lacks intrinsic meaning and hence even be subject to great emotional suffering such as loss.

Hence,

"What, now, is the Noble Truth of Suffering?
Birth is suffering; Decay is suffering; Death is suffering;
Sorrow, Lamentation, Pain, Grief, and Despair, are suffering; not to
get what one desires, is suffering; in short: the Five Groups of
Existence are suffering."

"And what, in brief, are the Five Groups of Existence? They are
Corporeality, Feeling, Perception, [mental] Formations, and
Consciousness."

Corporeality is suffering.
Feeling is suffering.
Perception is suffering.
Mental formations are suffering.
Consciousness is suffering.

There can be no liberation from suffering as long as one is continuously experiencing birth/decay/death. The cessation of feeling and mental formations is required- not that I am even asserting this, right now we are talking about suffering- it will always be there as long as feelings and mental formations arise.

[Pam Seeback]

movingalways: Seeker, it is not true that one does not know why suffering arises. Remember craving? Clinging? Logically then, suffering ceases to arise as craving and clinging are gradually eliminated.

Seeker: That's not a why. That's asking the cause. It doesn't answer why clinging is experienced as suffering, or why such a feeling/perception exists at all, suffering is part of the nature of reality.

Seeker, surely by now you realize that no one knows the why God or Life or Reality caused craving for existence (ignorance, suffering) to be. Wrestling with that metaphysical no-show is a huge waste of time. Which means one can cross it off their list of "whys."

Which leaves one to deal only with with the suffering caused by dependent arising of ignorance-craving and of its ending leading to liberation, the rooting out or "starving" of the conditions that feed ignorance-craving. In other words we know not why suffering is caused to exist but we do know how to cause suffering to cease existing.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

In other words we know not why suffering is caused to exist but we do know how to cause suffering to cease existing.

Good, lets talk about that. What do you think of the above post and quotes.

[Pam Seeback]

Kunga: Do you think Buddha figured out how to end suffering ?
All his teachings were geared to teach how to end suffering....
Do you think he finally figured it out ?
How the could he teach something he didn't know the answers for ?

His whole purpose was to teach the ending of suffering.
Did he fail to realize this ?
He must have figured something out....
What did he figure out ?

Not sure if these questions are redundant, I'll assume not. If there is not faith in the Buddha's teachings, and by faith I don't mean blind faith but faith rooted in good cause (one has caught the vision of emptiness for themselves and reasoned it to be sound) then there is no point in studying his suttas.

We don't inherently exist.
If you think you exist, then you suffer.

So as long as you still cling to this body as a separate existing thing....you will feel the pain...

When you are Enlightened, you don't exist, even if you appear as existing .

It's a magical illusion.

Only the Enlightened know how to perform this trick.

The enlightenment continue to exist and to feel pain. Hunger is a form of pain, thirst is a form of pain, being constipated is a form of pain, the enlightened continue to experience these painful things that go with body consciousness. What they do not do because pain is empty is feed it with attention. This is not magic or trickery, it is consciousness of emptiness.

[Pam Seeback]

In other words we know not why suffering is caused to exist but we do know how to cause suffering to cease existing.

Good, lets talk about that. What do you think of the above post and quotes.

To which post are you referring?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

The one with the "Noble Truth of Suffering" quote.

[Kunga]

This is not magic or trickery, it is consciousness of emptiness.

It was a trick question/answer :)

You peeked !

[ardy]

Suffering is an interesting one to those of us who struggle to empathise with the sufferers. The pain of a normal existence must be dreadful until you realise that any pain and or suffering is constructed in your own mind whether that mind is healthy or sick it is what develops these situations.

So you may swing from wearing a 3 cornered hat and ruling the world, to a cloak of ashes and think you are the lowest person in existence, even worse you may be balanced and well adjusted, it is still delusional. The whole thing frustrates the hell out of me but as one who has very rarely suffered in the normal idea of it, I need to understand others pain better.

If their pain is obvious [like a divorce] then I rise up but if it is not obvious why, it's hard to even think about it. I sometimes wonder how the Buddha and Christ gained this antenna for others pain. It must be a bit like a doctor working in a childrens cancer ward, there is only so much you can do and you cannot attach too closely to the patients.

[Pam Seeback]

Yes suffering is conditional.

Thankyou, so you may suffer every day, not an option, good work.
You may also lose all recognition of what it means that it lacks intrinsic meaning and hence even be subject to great emotional suffering such as loss.

Hence,

"What, now, is the Noble Truth of Suffering?
Birth is suffering; Decay is suffering; Death is suffering;
Sorrow, Lamentation, Pain, Grief, and Despair, are suffering; not to
get what one desires, is suffering; in short: the Five Groups of
Existence are suffering."

"And what, in brief, are the Five Groups of Existence? They are
Corporeality, Feeling, Perception, [mental] Formations, and
Consciousness."

Corporeality is suffering.
Feeling is suffering.
Perception is suffering.
Mental formations are suffering.
Consciousness is suffering.

There can be no liberation from suffering as long as one is continuously experiencing birth/decay/death. The cessation of feeling and mental formations is required- not that I am even asserting this, right now we are talking about suffering- it will always be there as long as feelings and mental formations arise.

Do you want to talk about liberation from suffering? If so, I addressed it briefly already, it comes about when the causes of suffering are rooted out or "starved." I would add to that that as well as starving the causes of suffering, one needs to feed the causes of liberation from suffering. From this translation of the Upanisa sutta:

Mundane Order
(supporting conditions that need to be starved)

Ignorance (avijja)
Kamma formations (sankhara)
Consciousness (viññana)
Mentality-materiality (namarupa)
Sixfold sense base (salayatana)
Contact (phassa)
Feeling (vedana)
Craving (tanha)
Clinging (upadana)
Existence (bhava)
Birth (jati)
Suffering (dukkha)

Transcendental Order
(supporting conditions that need to be fed)

Faith (saddha)
Joy (pamojja)
Rapture (piti)
Tranquillity (passaddhi)
Happiness (sukha)
Concentration (samadhi)
Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana)
Disenchantment (nibbida)
Dispassion (viraga)
Emancipation (vimutti)
Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye ñana)

Study and practice of these links in the chain of dependent arising lead to deliverance from suffering. Is this what you were looking for?

[Kunga]

I sometimes wonder how the Buddha and Christ gained this antenna for others pain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhicitta

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Yes Moving that is what I'm talking about. When you quote/say this:

(supporting conditions that need to be starved)


Kamma formations (sankhara)
Consciousness (viññana)
Mentality-materiality (namarupa)
Sixfold sense base (salayatana)
Contact (phassa)
Feeling (vedana)
Craving (tanha)
Clinging (upadana)
Existence (bhava)
Birth (jati)

Do you mean literally the cessation of the senses, feeling, consciousness, existence, birth/death, etc? And if so, how is it that you suppose one 'starves' these conditions?

More directly, how would you explain it blatantly? I'm referring to descriptions of what kind of experiences you would say involve starving these conditions, specifically "existence", "consciousness", "feeling" and "mental formations". Also, would you say liberation from existence and mental formations can arise, but not completely, short-lived released, until one's craving for existence returns and so does consciousness? Perhaps brought about by meditation, but not a final annihilation of craving required for final release.

I do see that these are conditions of suffering and as long as they arise we are subject to suffering - whether or not we believe we are not suffering in our present life.

[Pam Seeback]

Seeker: Do you mean literally the cessation of the senses, feeling, consciousness, existence, birth/death, etc? And if so, how is it that you suppose one 'starves' these conditions?

Yes, literally, with the cessation of craving coming first, nibbana (end of suffering) with the cessation of the senses following at the moment of physical death, parinibbana (end of body awareness).

One brings about nibbana, the cessation of craving by reasoning the four noble truths in concert with walking the eight-fold path. It has to be highly beneficial to keep company with people who share your dedication to truth, keeping in mind that ultimately the walk of truth is a solitary one.

More directly, how would you explain it blatantly? I'm referring to descriptions of what kind of experiences you would say involve starving these conditions, specifically "existence", "consciousness", "feeling" and "mental formations". Also, would you say liberation from existence and mental formations can arise, but not completely, short-lived released, until one's craving for existence returns and so does consciousness? Perhaps brought about by meditation, but not a final annihilation of craving required for final release.

If one was mindful of emptiness without ceasing, surely nibbana would be theirs. I suspect those who fall into this category of mindfulness are extremely rare, with most having to be mindful of craving when it arises, whatever its form. As for liberation, liberation is an absolute, one is not liberated until they know that ignorance is completely rooted out, starved with no hope of being fed. One can't be a little bit pregnant. However, one can get to the point where they experience frequent moments of freedom from craving that help increase faith in the path and dedication to bringing it to fruition.

I do see that these are conditions of suffering and as long as they arise we are subject to suffering - whether or not we believe we are not suffering in our present life.

I would not say that this is an absolute, but it seems to me to be key to being awakened to the truth of suffering one needs to first question their very existence on a profound level of inquiry.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Yes, literally, with the cessation of craving coming first, nibbana (end of suffering) with the cessation of the senses following at the moment of physical death, parinibbana (end of body awareness).

Good good. Would you say meditation is part of the process of relieving craving for mental formations and body awareness?

However, one can get to the point where they experience frequent moments of freedom from craving

How would you describe these moments of freedom? It may be that we are reasoning the same process. I am also aware of that it always seems 'off' to describe this in words, I'm sure you know what I mean, but that is inevitable of course.

one needs to first question their very existence on a profound level of inquiry.

You previously mentioned that for a long time you were struggling with the notion of whether the only possibility for the end of suffering is the cessation of existence or if it were closer to what Dennis suggests - in which life goes on.

After consideration, logic and reason clarify that suffering will continue to be caused and cannot be avoided with the continuous arising of formations.

I'm not kidding myself with childlike notions that "suffering is optional" in life, and I believe the Buddha made it very clear with words like these:

"Which do you think is the more: the streams of blood that, through
your being beheaded, have flowed upon this long way, or the waters
in the four oceans?
Long time have you been caught as dacoits, or highwaymen, or
adulterers; and, through your being beheaded, verily, more blood has
flowed upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans.
But how is this possible?
Inconceivable is the beginning of this Samsara; not to be discovered
is any first beginning of beings, who, obstructed by ignorance, and
ensnared by craving, are hurrying and hastening through this round
of rebirths."


Beginning-less time makes clear the inevitability of suffering.

For example, lets say someone sticks a knife in the gut while one is sleeping- I can't imagine how ignorant Dennis is to think suffering is optional in that case.

[Dennis Mahar]

You cant imagine it.
you provide the meaning for you
your shit is your shit not mine.
keep me out of your soap opera.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

you provide the meaning for you
your shit is your shit not mine.

Say it then :)

Prove you're not just avoiding it cause you know how stupid it sounds.

Just write "Suffering is optional, even if someone sticks a knife in my gut".

[Dennis Mahar]

For 100 bucks?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

What would you need money for? You are above the petty conditions us lowly beings are subject to.



Reconsider your position, maybe even a rephrase might clear things up.

[ardy]

Suffering is real but do any of you think that if you were suffering from Bi-Polar then it would follow you through enlightenment. If you think it would not go through then the B-P is a delusion, if you are sure it does go through - what then?

[Dennis Mahar]

Cash for comment works for me.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Suffering is real but do any of you think that if you were suffering from Bi-Polar then it would follow you through enlightenment.

There's an interesting similarity between all personality "disorders" and the concept of ignorance in the spiritual sense: the emphasis on a deluded or mistaken sense of self and therefore distorted relations with the "otherness". As I see it disturbance at the core level of a perceived authentic self is already the "normal" and the base of social functioning as long as it's shared and re-enforced in each other. The known "disorders" are only those cases where you could speak of a more consistent and inflexible behavioral pattern. What most would call "mental health" is then a form of generic adaptation: a moving in and out of various disordering strategies, like a chameleon. The road to relative health therefore always leads to breaking the patterns, become flexible and develop some character, some warrior spirit: wanting to deal with it.

Suffering from bipolar then could be said to be similar to all the other suffering: a response to the sense of emptiness and inability to maintain the sense of an authentic self. The conflict of needing that authentic self to function in a self-society while at the core this self is already found to be truthfully empty!

This is why it takes a strong character to follow one through enlightenment. When the symptoms of personality disorder appear it's a sign one walks the road without character. It would be like overcoming ego without having much of an ego to start with. It just doesn't work and disordered thoughts, moods or activities will arise.

[Pam Seeback]

movingalways wrote:
Yes, literally, with the cessation of craving coming first, nibbana (end of suffering) with the cessation of the senses following at the moment of physical death, parinibbana (end of body awareness).

Good good. Would you say meditation is part of the process of relieving craving for mental formations and body awareness?

Yes, insight meditation, not trance or relaxation meditation. Many who practice the latter believe they have discovered emptiness, which for a moment perhaps they have, but for these practitioners, there can be no liberation because they must continue practicing in order to "call forth emptiness." This can be a valuable experience, however, because eventually, as with all impermanent things, weariness of "calling forth" sets in.

movingalways wrote:
However, one can get to the point where they experience frequent moments of freedom from craving

How would you describe these moments of freedom? It may be that we are reasoning the same process. I am also aware of that it always seems 'off' to describe this in words, I'm sure you know what I mean, but that is inevitable of course.

Simply put, I am conscious that I am free both of the reasoning state and the emotional state.

movingalways wrote:
one needs to first question their very existence on a profound level of inquiry.

You previously mentioned that for a long time you were struggling with the notion of whether the only possibility for the end of suffering is the cessation of existence or if it were closer to what Dennis suggests - in which life goes on.

I don't recall that particular struggle, but since it is only recently that I made a breakthrough to removing all doubts, I can say with conviction that the end of suffering is synonymous with the cessation of existence. The idea that one's intent of consciousness goes on eternally is hell to me; such an effect would be, to me, the equivalent of the infinity of craving. Hungry ghost comes to mind.

After consideration, logic and reason clarify that suffering will continue to be caused and cannot be avoided with the continuous arising of formations.

I'm not kidding myself with childlike notions that "suffering is optional" in life, and I believe the Buddha made it very clear with words like these:

"Which do you think is the more: the streams of blood that, through
your being beheaded, have flowed upon this long way, or the waters
in the four oceans?
Long time have you been caught as dacoits, or highwaymen, or
adulterers; and, through your being beheaded, verily, more blood has
flowed upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans.
But how is this possible?
Inconceivable is the beginning of this Samsara; not to be discovered
is any first beginning of beings, who, obstructed by ignorance, and
ensnared by craving, are hurrying and hastening through this round
of rebirths."

Any emotional state left unattended by insight wisdom will feed off itself ad infinitum.

Beginning-less time makes clear the inevitability of suffering.

For example, lets say someone sticks a knife in the gut while one is sleeping- I can't imagine how ignorant Dennis is to think suffering is optional in that case.
SeekerOfWisdom

I can't speak for Dennis, but I do believe it is possible to abide so "deep" into emptiness that one does not react to physical pain. This does not mean awareness of it is not present, one is not denying pain, only that one's insight wisdom of its true nature is the dominant consciousness. Such a depth of abiding is not connected to any intention of mood such as bliss.

This the is difference between those who perceive of enlightenment as being the continuation of existence and those who do not. For those who perceive the former, bliss is an attractive meaning maker. For those who perceive the latter, bliss is but a step on the way out of bliss, to stay there would be hell.

[Pam Seeback]

Diebert and ardy, I have a young friend (I am her "second mother") who has been diagnosed with bipolar who is very much attracted to Buddhism, but the emotional variety of peace and lovingkindness for all. She and I do occasionally have deeper conversations, she is highly intelligent and motivated, but by her own admission, she is not ready to go beyond the healing aspect of Buddhist thought. Which is perfect for her.

[Kunga]

she is not ready to go beyond the healing aspect of Buddhist thought. Which is perfect for her.

Well, don't you need both Compassion and Wisdom ? How can you have Wisdom without compassion ? How can you have compassion without Wisdom ?
To throw out compassion[emotions], and just rely on Wisdom[intellect], you just become mechanical and inhumane. Enlightenment is for humans, not insensitive robots.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda07.htm