Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Pam Seeback »

Perhaps simplifying the question to "Do you see that without form bias desire and agitation have no chance to take root, and without the rooting of desire and agitation suffering does not exist?"
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Dennis Mahar »

What you imply there Pam is causality or emptiness.
suffering is empty.
what was needed was a theory that saves the appearances.
that kind of theory accounts for the observed phenomena so that the present occurence is seen as a matter of course and future occurrences are predictable.

Saved by the belle.

omniscience.

aw shucks.
let me say it again,
Bliss.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:No that's an example of a figment of imagination
The first sentence, the second, or both?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

movingalways wrote:
One could say that experience is neither bad or good, or that it is often an experience full of wonder or bliss, really you could say anything about it, it remains that existence is beginning-less and is subject to agitation, desire and suffering.
Seeker, I am coming to understand that existence does not have to be subject to agitation, desire and suffering. That these things are caused by the delusion of a superimposed self with the natural effect of this delusion being ignorance or bias toward form. That it is bias and not the appearance of form itself that is the cause of suffering. Is it not the ignorance of bias that causes anger, hatred and greed, which in seed form is desire and agitation? Do you see that without form bias desire and agitation have no chance to take root?

Isn't that directly contradictory to what you were saying before and posting for a while? Hungry ghost, the end of existence, so forth.


Again I'll make a point some don't seem to get: existence does not come to an end with bodily death, it continues and has so since beginning-less time.

It doesn't matter if one can overcome and leave behind anger, hatred, greed, pain, agitation, desire, suffering, delusion and the clinging to conceptual designations. Or if they are in lollypop land and have a bliss bliss time.

Even if one has surpassed any delusion that makes them believe there is suffering for a lifetime, existence is endless and is subject to change and conditions which bring about suffering.

If there was ever suffering once, or the delusion of it, then you will be subject to suffering and delusion again and again.

"existence does not have to be subject to agitation, desire and suffering" - Moving

This is directly contradictory to the first noble truth, which is the hardest and most important to properly grasp, without changing ones mindset simply cause they've had a nice clear-sighted time.

"Samsara-the Wheel of Existence, lit., the "Perpetual
Wandering"-is the name by which is designated the sea of life ever
restlessly heaving up and down, the symbol of this continuous
process of ever again and again being born, growing old, suffering,
and dying. More precisely Put: Samsara is the unbroken chain of the
fivefold Khandha-combinations, which, constantly changing from
moment to moment, follow continuously one upon the other through
inconceivable periods of time. Of this Samsara, a single lifetime
constitutes only a vanishingly tiny fraction; hence, to be able to
comprehend the first noble truth, one must let one's gaze rest upon
the Samsara, upon this frightful chain of rebirths, and not merely
upon one single lifetime, which, of course, may be sometimes not
very painful."
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Dennis Mahar »

This is it bozo.
did you think it was a rehearsal.
get off the bong.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Pam Seeback »

Seeker: Isn't that directly contradictory to what you were saying before and posting for a while? Hungry ghost, the end of existence, so forth.
I see some things differently, yes. Mostly regarding the principle of attachment, which I once believed was possible to root out while sentient, which is no longer my understanding.
Again I'll make a point some don't seem to get: existence does not come to an end with bodily death, it continues and has so since beginning-less time.
I believe most here have logically concluded that causality is eternal. How does my understanding of suffering ending with the ending of form bias contradict that conclusion?
It doesn't matter if one can overcome and leave behind anger, hatred, greed, pain, agitation, desire, suffering, delusion and the clinging to conceptual designations. Or if they are in lollypop land and have a bliss bliss time.

Even if one has surpassed any delusion that makes them believe there is suffering for a lifetime, existence is endless and is subject to change and conditions which bring about suffering.
"existence does not have to be subject to agitation, desire and suffering" - Moving
This is directly contradictory to the first noble truth, which is the hardest and most important to properly grasp, without changing ones mindset simply cause they've had a nice clear-sighted time.
And what of the fourth noble truth? Also, did not the Buddha give evidence of his own life that suffering can end in this lifetime?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

movingalways wrote: And what of the fourth noble truth? Also, did not the Buddha give evidence of his own life that suffering can end in this lifetime?
The cessation of existence was spoken of as the final liberation. There are many Buddhists who think 'final liberation' is not possible during life. The discussion now is if mental formations, awareness, etc, can continue to arise without the arising of suffering.

You'll have to try and explain how you could not be subject to suffering throughout eternity when you definitely are subject to causality (which you are not the master of). Is it not clear that conditions may bring about agitation and suffering, as well as complete delusion and lack of insight? Even if one had overcome 'form bias' for the time being, for what reason do you assume such understandings would remain eternally?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Dennis Mahar wrote: get off the bong.

I won't even drink alcohol because I find it useless. You are stupid, egotistical, and delusional. What else is wrong with you?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Stupid. Egotistical. Delusional
thankyou.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Because you repeat the same sentence and don't respond to inquiry, and you make things up and believe them to be true.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Ok mum.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Dennis Mahar »

You think causality is a double bind.
the mind is causal.
get over it free Spirit.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

what's a double bind?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:No that's an example of a figment of imagination
The first sentence, the second, or both?
Both, "direct experience of reality" and "wavering impermanent experience".

Reality is not "something" you experience but what you have to do to experience. Distinguish, recognize, react, feedback, etc. Reality is then: that you're experiencing. Sometimes it's used to prioritize: reality is elevated over illusion since the first needs a response and our consideration. Then illusion becomes just what we can afford to dismiss as such or filter out. The reality principle as evaluation.

As far as wavering impermanence goes, it's still imagination. You can only determine impermanence because it looks that way compared to some imagined permanency.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Dennis Mahar »

What's a double bind?

A question obviously.

perhaps tonight as gross mind falls away and the little wings of subtle mind run free,
You may walk roads and a wonderful girl or boy may appear and lead you to a neck in the woods,
To a clearing,
And there it is,
The city of light
Pam Seeback
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Pam Seeback »

movingalways wrote:
And what of the fourth noble truth? Also, did not the Buddha give evidence of his own life that suffering can end in this lifetime?
Seeker: The cessation of existence was spoken of as the final liberation. There are many Buddhists who think 'final liberation' is not possible during life.
I do not care about the understandings of many Buddhists only that of the pre-Buddhist Buddha.
The discussion now is if mental formations, awareness, etc, can continue to arise without the arising of suffering.
How does one practice the living wisdom of impartiality toward form if one cannot use mental formations? All those quotes you placed in the Wise Quotes threads, are they not mental formations? The task now is for you to speak and write as do those whom you quote. I believe the actual words of the Buddha is that the end of suffering comes when mental fermentations cease. Think upon the word "ferment".
You'll have to try and explain how you could not be subject to suffering throughout eternity when you definitely are subject to causality (which you are not the master of). Is it not clear that conditions may bring about agitation and suffering, as well as complete delusion and lack of insight? Even if one had overcome 'form bias' for the time being, for what reason do you assume such understandings would remain eternally?
Why project beyond your practice of these things in the present? This was one of my recent eurekas, that I was more focused not the effects of right-view/righteousness than on the cause of its ignorance. Go to the root and stay there, this is the living truth. In other words, be a Buddha, be a Christ, speak their wisdom, live their wisdom. What happens 'to you' as you take your last breath while thinking like a Buddha or a Christ, well, as it is with every moment, what will be will be.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Moving

"It is only when we see clearly for ourselves that we are "sunk in birth, aging, and death, in sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair, sunk in suffering, overcome by suffering" (MN 29),"

You also posted something about the conditions that one should starve to end suffering.

In there was consciousness, mental formations, etc.

Now you follow up with how one can overcome suffering altogether in life, and my question is if that lack of suffering would remain eternally? How so?
movingalways wrote:How does one practice the living wisdom of impartiality toward form if one cannot use mental formations?
I never said anything about practising impartiality toward form. I'm still baffled as to how you can say suffering would not arise for eternity if life is continued?

Do you not recognize that the conditions which bring about suffering will arise?

Your logic about the fourth noble truth is off also, the first, life is suffering. The fourth is about the way out of suffering, nowhere does the buddha state, "one can be eternally free of suffering while living a day to day life". In fact he repeats the obvious facts about life - in life you will be subject to aging, pain, decay, death, despair.

How could one be free of being "sunk in birth, aging, and death, in sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair, sunk in suffering, overcome by suffering" if birth aging and death are continuously repeating?

You only recently began supporting that one can be free of suffering even while aging, decay and death go on. Is that correct?
Previously you were saying things like hellish hungry ghost.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Today's desirable object arises in a swoon of adorable adjectives and soon falls to blemish in a swoon of pejoratives,
Cast off discourteously,

Emptiness.
you provide the meaning.
rollin and tumblin
bliss.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Pam Seeback »

What's Not Here

I start out on this road,
call it love or emptiness.
I only know what's not here.

Resentment seeds, backscratching greed,
worrying about outcome, fear of people.

When a bird gets free,
it does not go back for remnants
left on the bottom of the cage.

Close by, I'm rain. Far off,
a cloud of fire. I seem restless,
but I am deeply at ease.

Branches tremble. The roots are still.
I am a universe in a handful of dirt,
whole when totally demolished.

Talk about choices does not apply to me.
While intelligence considers options,
I am somewhere lost in the wind.

~ Rumi

When feeling is set free from its emotional prison and logic is allowed to be the handy-dandy little guy that he is, liberation is here now. 'Nuf said.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Dennis Mahar »

It's never other than liberation Nuff Nuff
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Kunga
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Kunga »

movingalways wrote:When feeling is set free from its emotional prison and logic is allowed to be the handy-dandy little guy that he is, liberation is here now. 'Nuf said.
You are still in prison if you think/feel that logic is a guy that's handy.
Logic is dickless
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Logic is a tool (thing) that splits it up and discriminates between things.
It's concern is survival options.
enhancing survival
a set of assessments, a range of options giving rise to a winning formula.
Ask Marx.

Emptiness is not a thing, non-discriminating. Nonconceptual.
it's a distinction.
it discloses Spirit.
always/already liberated.
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Kunga
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Logic is a tool
Yes...and it makes no difference if the tool is pink or blue as long as it works.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Dennis Mahar »

There's a cowpoke up this way who harvests brown cows for a dollar.
he gets the bubbies at auction and fattens them up.
Brown ain't brown for this bloke.
he discriminates brown in dozens of ways
He knows what to add or subtract to a bubby and/or his paddock in order to get the brown that gets the top dollar.
because his survival depends on it.
logic is quantative.
supply concerns.

emptiness is the quality of nature.
phenomena lacks inherent existence.
dependent arising.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Qualities of a Spiritually Evolved Human

Post by Pam Seeback »

Kunga wrote:
movingalways wrote:When feeling is set free from its emotional prison and logic is allowed to be the handy-dandy little guy that he is, liberation is here now. 'Nuf said.
You are still in prison if you think/feel that logic is a guy that's handy.
Logic is dickless
Literalism is also a prison.
Locked