Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

"Suffering and the path to the end of suffering" - Some guy who thought there was nothing to get and nothing to fix.

Are you senile Dennis?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Ultimately there isn't.

there can be a consideration there is that don't need fixing
so be it.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Ultimately there isn't.

there can be a consideration there is that don't need fixing
so be it.
If there's nothing to fix, why do you keep posting your responses, Dennis?

If words are meaningless, why do you keep using words calculated to convey a meaning?


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Kelly Jones
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

Dennis,

I requested this thread stick to topic. Please do not post in this thread at all.


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Leyla Shen
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Burning Snake Oil

Post by Leyla Shen »

What are your ideas on how to ignite the world-burning fire, that drives people to cross the river of philosophy, and reach the other shore?
Impossible, and I think essentially a misguided, egoistic wish.
The mode of production of material life conditions the general process of social, political and intellectual life. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness.—MARX
As you yourself are forced to acknowledge by asking for the “hows”, your thinking, right down to the very desire for a “Thinkers’ Estate”, is conditioned by the manner in which living itself is produced—by society; by Woman. The Thinker’s Estate is not, therefore, some spiritual transcendence; rather, it Her offspring. The attempt here is to birth a humanity without humans.

On Dumbness:
Feuerbach resolves the religious essence into the human essence. But the human essence is no abstraction inherent in each single individual.

In its reality it is the ensemble of the social relations.

Feuerbach, who does not enter upon a criticism of this real essence, is consequently compelled:

1. To abstract from the historical process and to fix the religious sentiment as something by itself and to presuppose an abstract – isolated – human individual.

2. Essence, therefore, can be comprehended only as “genus”, as an internal, dumb generality which naturally unites the many individuals.
Humans might in general be dumb, but there are material causes for that dumbness.
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Dennis Mahar »

The forum is meant to discuss ultimate reality

desire for world-eating so so
Leyla Shen
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Leyla Shen »

Shut the fuck up, Dennis.
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SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

He's lost his marbles Leyla.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Dennis Mahar »

All existents depend for their existence on causes/conditions.
whatever is found to exist dependently cannot be absolute.

Emptiness cannot be refuted.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

Since I can't suspend their accounts, I'm going to have to ignore Kunga and Dennis for the meantime. If there's no response from the admins in the next few days, then I'm going to re-open the Natural Thinker forum. Anyone who wishes to continue this trajectory can come over there, without the disturbance of the trolls.


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Kunga
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"I have come to start a fire" [a bitch in heat]

Post by Kunga »

You are the troll Kelly. CON-TROLL
Last edited by Kunga on Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Burning Snake Oil

Post by Kelly Jones »

Leyla Shen wrote:KJ: What are your ideas on how to ignite the world-burning fire, that drives people to cross the river of philosophy, and reach the other shore?

LS: Impossible, and I think essentially a misguided, egoistic wish.
You mean, the Tripitaka was impossible, as was the creation of this forum? And any other spiritual works? And misguided also?

The mode of production of material life conditions the general process of social, political and intellectual life. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness.—MARX
As you yourself are forced to acknowledge by asking for the “hows”, your thinking, right down to the very desire for a “Thinkers’ Estate”, is conditioned by the manner in which living itself is produced—by society; by Woman. The Thinker’s Estate is not, therefore, some spiritual transcendence; rather, it Her offspring. The attempt here is to birth a humanity without humans.
Why is asking "how", conditioned by society? This is like saying that society invented causality, isn't it?

Is eating my weet-bix conditioned by Woman? How so? (Or is that question, also conditioned by Woman?)

On Dumbness:
Feuerbach resolves the religious essence into the human essence. But the human essence is no abstraction inherent in each single individual.

In its reality it is the ensemble of the social relations.

Feuerbach, who does not enter upon a criticism of this real essence, is consequently compelled:

1. To abstract from the historical process and to fix the religious sentiment as something by itself and to presuppose an abstract – isolated – human individual.

2. Essence, therefore, can be comprehended only as “genus”, as an internal, dumb generality which naturally unites the many individuals.
Humans might in general be dumb, but there are material causes for that dumbness.
You haven't explained your terms. Dumbness could mean silence or stupidity. Are you saying any attempt to become enlightened is stupid, and won't work?



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Kunga
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kunga »

It won't work for people that think they're somebody.
Leyla Shen
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Leyla Shen »

You mean, the Tripitaka was impossible, as was the creation of this forum? And any other spiritual works?
What, you mean the fire’s already burning, and has been for a long time? Why the question?
And misguided also?
Yes. Evidently, as is suggested above, the fire’s already burning. So, I wonder what are you asking for, really? An escape? Respite?
Why is asking "how", conditioned by society? This is like saying that society invented causality, isn't it?
No, it’s not like that at all.
The nature of your “how” is necessarily based on existing conditions of social organisation, isn’t it? Man didn't cause causality. Clearly, he has been caused to create society.
Is eating my weet-bix conditioned by Woman?
Yes.
How so?
Well, you get a few pennies from here and there (work, dole, friends), go to a supermarket and buy a brand or no-brand packet of weet-bix from the local supermarket. Easier than finding enough berries to pick and feed yourself, the family and the general community, really. Otherwise, for example, you’d be in a hunter/gatherer society picking berries, or begging to tag along with the men on a day or two's mission to hunt and bring down a great mammoth which would feed you all for quite some time longer. Now, thanks to Woman and abundant facilities for fat burning berry picking, you can really test your transcendental balls for all the masculine virility their worth by studying and thinking instead.
(Or is that question, also conditioned by Woman?)
Yes, it is conditioned exactly by Woman; modern society. Your Thinker’s Estate/commune is a freedom which no genius seems to have required in the past, why do you call for one now?
You haven't explained your terms. Dumbness could mean silence or stupidity. Are you saying any attempt to become enlightened is stupid, and won't work?
In the context of your question, it means those who are on this side of that river leading to the other shore. The relationship my remark bears to the quote is that any idea of “human essence” which is independent of society is essentially delusional. What essence are you trying to appeal to that is apart from this society when looking for “natural born thinkers”—you know, “men”—from which to deliberately birth genius?
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by jupiviv »

Kelly Jones wrote:Anyway, you've shown by your own case that a spiritual vehicle, or rather, a well-designed spiritual lighter, can be used start a spiritual fire in the right person. You admit Kevin's site was a vehicle in your case, and it worked because you got in and used it. That's the process I'm talking about.
Well I never said that vehicles weren't important, just not as important as self-propelled motion.
Even if people do not agree with or understand you during the conversation itself, what you say can still have a powerful effect upon them if they think about it later.
Can you describe the face-to-face discussions over the past week, in which you overtly aimed at lighting spiritual fires? I'd be interested to see how your opinions are realised in practical terms, and how you've designed your life for this purpose.
I didn't overtly aim at it, but most conversations I have tend to be philosophically inclined. For example, if someone strikes up a conversation about professional sports, I tell them why it is a big waste of energy and money which could be used for other purposes. Or if someone talks to me about politics, I explain why any political system is bound to be corrupt since it is based on the desire of happiness, which manifests as greed, ambition etc.

As for realising my opinions in practical terms: I dropped out of university because it seemed to me that education is something people go through for the primary reason of getting a job and social status, as opposed to an education. Not to mention, the humanities (the field I got into) is utterly destitute when it comes to reason and truth. Now I'm doing a software degree on a part time basis, to keep my parents happy, and learning programming by myself. Initially, I felt it was a distraction and not compatible with spirituality, but now I'm much more at home with it.
Also, do any of them read your internet writings, such as on the forum, on Youtube, etc.? Or do you think there is a definite Jupiviv vs. [your real name] split in your life?
I haven't really written a lot of stuff, and what I have written on the net is scattered all over the place. So no, people I know haven't read my internet writings.

I've used 2 names to date on the net - RB, and variations of "Jupta". The first is the initials of my proper name, and the second is my nickname which everybody who knows me uses. I was born on a thursday, which is jupiter's day, so I was named "Jupiter" which later became "jupta" because that's how indians pronounce the word.
KJ: So I think vehicles are definitely the way to go. Writings, audio recordings, videos, CD-compilations, etc. These are far easier to absorb, because they allow one to think to oneself privately. I tend to think most learners with scope learn not through discussion, but by being stimulated by what others have to say, in some well-presented, well-considered fashion, into thinking it over at length by themselves.

J: Yes, thinking privately is the most important. Indeed, it is the only kind of thinking there is! However, there is always something more that one takes away from a face to face discussion. Also, immersing oneself in the chaos of human life doesn't necessarily involve communication. It could simply mean going out and observing people.
I think almost every single person who dips their little toe into thinking profoundly about life and what is ultimately real, is inspired to do so by some kind of carefully designed work to stimulate them to thought. So, if you agree, let's skip to the actual ideas for such works.

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OK. Your idea of a spiritual commune is not bad, but it is extremely easy in these cases to sacrifice one's ideals for the sake of resources and popularity. That is the main fear I have regarding your idea of "vehicles". The world doesn't work the same way it did back in the Buddha's time. Nowadays you have to kowtow to the mainstream in one way or another if you want to get anything large and group-based going.

People will notice a group quicker than an individual, and if the group does something they are repulsed by, they won't rest until they either destroy or change it. The reason all the alternative sexual lifestyles flourish in western countries is that both the patrons and the hostesses are rooted in society in one way or the other, and follow the rules without protest. A dominatrix may earn money by doing things to men that people with medical training wouldn't touch with a 10 foot sterilised cotton swab, but after all she's got her 2 kids by 4 men to feed. A politician may get off on eating crap, but that's the only thing preventing him from folding under the stress of running the country.

If you want a large number of people to give you attention, you have to do something that promises them a lot of fun and the sense of doing something big as part of a group. It is impossible, as far as I can see, to do that without making compromises, which is something I am absolutely against. If you do find enough money and resources to create a no-nonsense electronic/real-world space for people to improve society and seek truth, why would they come there when there are so many other such spaces available? Why wouldn't they go instead to Osho, Sting or Sam Harris?

In the Buddha's time you could create a truly outlying sect, for whatever purpose, and people would come to you. They didn't have as many options as they did now, and the influence of mainstream society did not cover every inhabitable corner of the globe. A lot of them would probably be ones who couldn't find something better or safer, but you'd still have a self-sustaining group with the potential of fostering wisdom in a few people if it has wise people calling the shots.

All that said, I think it would be great if Kevin Solway upgraded his site to >=2003 CE. Maybe improve the design and accessibility, with twitter, facebook or even reddit pages. It wouldn't hurt if he does videos more often. I'm planning on making some videos myself. An integrated menoftheinfinite youtube channel and blog (connected with Kevin's site) with videos from me, Diebert van Rhijn, you, Kevin Solway, David Quinn etc. is certainly achievable.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

Leyla Shen wrote:KJ: What are your ideas on how to ignite the world-burning fire, that drives people to cross the river of philosophy, and reach the other shore?

LS: Impossible, and I think essentially a misguided, egoistic wish.

KJ: You mean, the Tripitaka was impossible, as was the creation of this forum? And any other spiritual works?

LS: What, you mean the fire’s already burning, and has been for a long time? Why the question?
The fire is lit anew every time someone creates an effective vehicle to stimulate the search for wisdom; whenever they wish to help awaken others. Why which question: my question to you personally, or the OP question?

KJ: And misguided also?

LS: Yes. Evidently, as is suggested above, the fire’s already burning. So, I wonder what are you asking for, really? An escape? Respite?
Is it still misguided, now you know what I meant by a fire? And that very few people are alight?

KJ: Why is asking "how", conditioned by society? This is like saying that society invented causality, isn't it?

LS: No, it’s not like that at all. The nature of your “how” is necessarily based on existing conditions of social organisation, isn’t it? Man didn't cause causality. Clearly, he has been caused to create society.
Well, the whole point of the Thinkers' Estates is providing an alternative way to mainstream society, in order to follow the spiritual path with wholeheartedness and single-mindedness. So, I don't quite see what your point is. How could the idea not be based on existing conditions? It is in reaction to them, to try to find a liveable alternative.

And, yes, men created society, not women; but women have been generally the benefactors.

KJ: Is eating my weet-bix conditioned by Woman?

LS: Yes ..... Well, you get a few pennies from here and there (work, dole, friends), go to a supermarket and buy a brand or no-brand packet of weet-bix from the local supermarket. Easier than finding enough berries to pick and feed yourself, the family and the general community, really. Otherwise, for example, you’d be in a hunter/gatherer society picking berries, or begging to tag along with the men on a day or two's mission to hunt and bring down a great mammoth which would feed you all for quite some time longer. Now, thanks to Woman and abundant facilities for fat burning berry picking, you can really test your transcendental balls for all the masculine virility their worth by studying and thinking instead.
How is going to a supermarket conditioned by Woman? Why isn't this simply an efficient and intelligent way to distribute food in a society?

Your Thinker’s Estate/commune is a freedom which no genius seems to have required in the past, why do you call for one now?
I beg to differ, Leyla. Many of Hakuin's Dharma ancestors benefitted from the intellect and living-resources pooling system of Zen Buddhist monasteries and study centres. His own Shoinji temple was made of at least twenty students living and studying there. Diogenes mentions the weakness of young men who couldn't stand his lifestyle, and it was traditional for these ancient Greek philosophers to live together roughly, so one can assume he lived among a few others; much like the Buddha, and his colleagues.

Anyway, past practices don't an argument make.

KJ: What are your ideas on how to ignite the world-burning fire, that drives people to cross the river of philosophy, and reach the other shore?

LS: Impossible, and I think essentially a misguided, egoistic wish. On Dumbness:
Feuerbach resolves the religious essence into the human essence. But the human essence is no abstraction inherent in each single individual.

In its reality it is the ensemble of the social relations.

Feuerbach, who does not enter upon a criticism of this real essence, is consequently compelled:

1. To abstract from the historical process and to fix the religious sentiment as something by itself and to presuppose an abstract – isolated – human individual.

2. Essence, therefore, can be comprehended only as “genus”, as an internal, dumb generality which naturally unites the many individuals.
LS: Humans might in general be dumb, but there are material causes for that dumbness.

KJ: You haven't explained your terms. Dumbness could mean silence or stupidity. Are you saying any attempt to become enlightened is stupid, and won't work?

LS: In the context of your question, it means those who are on this side of that river leading to the other shore. The relationship my remark bears to the quote is that any idea of “human essence” which is independent of society is essentially delusional.
Why?

What essence are you trying to appeal to that is apart from this society when looking for “natural born thinkers”—you know, “men”—from which to deliberately birth genius?
I've already mentioned this, when mentioning the advantages of the Thinkers' Estates type idea. Things like, not having to work soulless jobs ever again; being able to focus 24/7/365 on understanding the nature of Ultimate Reality; making the spiritual life more visible, and so forth.

It's not complicated.

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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by jupiviv »

Leyla Shen wrote:The nature of your “how” is necessarily based on existing conditions of social organisation, isn’t it? Man didn't cause causality. Clearly, he has been caused to create society.

The nature of the how is based on a lot of things, like the conditions of social organisation that may potentially replace the existing ones.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be saying that everything that a human being does within society has a special, isolated causal relationship with society. You're confusing causation with identity. Just because A is caused by B doesn't mean that A == B(in fact, it means the opposite : A != B.)
Well, you get a few pennies from here and there (work, dole, friends), go to a supermarket and buy a brand or no-brand packet of weet-bix from the local supermarket. Easier than finding enough berries to pick and feed yourself, the family and the general community, really. Otherwise, for example, you’d be in a hunter/gatherer society picking berries, or begging to tag along with the men on a day or two's mission to hunt and bring down a great mammoth which would feed you all for quite some time longer. Now, thanks to Woman and abundant facilities for fat burning berry picking, you can really test your transcendental balls for all the masculine virility their worth by studying and thinking instead.

Assuming that 'Woman' means the whole of human society, your logic here dictates that the human race can't go outside the earth because it is currently located on Earth and gains its sustenance from it.
Yes, it is conditioned exactly by Woman; modern society. Your Thinker’s Estate/commune is a freedom which no genius seems to have required in the past, why do you call for one now?
What are you talking about? Were the Zen Buddhists in Japan a secret gay club? Were the first universities in Europe built for fun? The reason we have so few geniuses is because that freedom was, and is, lacking.
The relationship my remark bears to the quote is that any idea of “human essence” which is independent of society is essentially delusional. What essence are you trying to appeal to that is apart from this society when looking for “natural born thinkers”—you know, “men”—from which to deliberately birth genius?

According to this logic, any idea of "fuel essence" which is independent of currently available fuels is essentially delusional.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Leyla Shen »

Kelly Jones wrote:Is it still misguided, now you know what I meant by a fire? And that very few people are alight?
Yes and no, Kelly. No, because the absurdity in denying the value of wisdom is immediately apparent. And yes, too, because the absurdity in denying the value of wisdom is immediately apparent.

I don't think a commune is going to make you stand out any more or less, and I don't think it would provide any means by which fostering the path would be made any easier but seems more like a sensible way for those already weaned off of society to live.

Here's a question. Why don't you, jupiviv, Diebert, David, etc, get together on that block of land, for example? You could then foster and fortify what you already have without living with the day-to-day distractions of society?
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

jupiviv wrote:KJ: Anyway, you've shown by your own case that a spiritual vehicle, or rather, a well-designed spiritual lighter, can be used start a spiritual fire in the right person. You admit Kevin's site was a vehicle in your case, and it worked because you got in and used it. That's the process I'm talking about.

J: Well I never said that vehicles weren't important, just not as important as self-propelled motion.

J: Even if people do not agree with or understand you during the conversation itself, what you say can still have a powerful effect upon them if they think about it later.

KJ: Can you describe the face-to-face discussions over the past week, in which you overtly aimed at lighting spiritual fires? I'd be interested to see how your opinions are realised in practical terms, and how you've designed your life for this purpose.

J: I didn't overtly aim at it, but most conversations I have tend to be philosophically inclined. For example, if someone strikes up a conversation about professional sports, I tell them why it is a big waste of energy and money which could be used for other purposes. Or if someone talks to me about politics, I explain why any political system is bound to be corrupt since it is based on the desire of happiness, which manifests as greed, ambition etc.
Do you get into actual philosophy often with your everyday, face-to-face encounters?

As for realising my opinions in practical terms: I dropped out of university because it seemed to me that education is something people go through for the primary reason of getting a job and social status, as opposed to an education. Not to mention, the humanities (the field I got into) is utterly destitute when it comes to reason and truth. Now I'm doing a software degree on a part time basis, to keep my parents happy, and learning programming by myself. Initially, I felt it was a distraction and not compatible with spirituality, but now I'm much more at home with it.
I agree with the university study. I took on an online degree in bioscience/biotechnology, in order to help people comprehend Weininger's first chapters in Geschlect und Charakter, but it's been a hellish experience because of the systemic irrationality in universities. I've tried to keep above it by studying part-time and only 2-3 units a year, but the spiritually distracting aspect is increasing, as each unit becomes more complex (as you can imagine). On the other hand, if I continue with the study, I'm more likely to get financial assistance from a bank with building the Thinker's Estates accommodation, as well as a $30,000 grant from the government. There are many pros and cons in this issue, and it's not easy making a decision. Do I sacrifice my own preference for a quiet life in order to quicken this project's benefit to others, or is the sacrifice too great and actually short-sighted?

If you share accommodation, with whom do you live with? If you pay rent, what percentage of your income does this amount to? What is the population and demographics of your city? Who do you tend to "socialise" with, and what kinds of socialising are they? Are you wholly dependent on programming for your income, or, if not, what is the main source of your income? All such considerations have effects on the kind of lifestyle one leads, what kind of encounters one can have with others, and who those others are likely to be. I know you will recognise they are not "worldly" Womanly questions.....

KJ: Also, do any of them read your internet writings, such as on the forum, on Youtube, etc.? Or do you think there is a definite Jupiviv vs. [your real name] split in your life?

J: I haven't really written a lot of stuff, and what I have written on the net is scattered all over the place. So no, people I know haven't read my internet writings.

I've used 2 names to date on the net - RB, and variations of "Jupta". The first is the initials of my proper name, and the second is my nickname which everybody who knows me uses. I was born on a thursday, which is jupiter's day, so I was named "Jupiter" which later became "jupta" because that's how indians pronounce the word.
Do any of those you've met with in person know about your views on women, as clearly and openly as you've expressed them "virtually"? Or do you find it isn't likely you could have such conversations with them?

OK. Your idea of a spiritual commune is not bad,...
That makes me think of Indian ashrams. It's nothing that gauche. My idea is just a simple accommodation for a small number, maybe 3-4 people at each location, where they get their meals, sleep, and have a place to study rational enlightenment. Grow food if they like. It's not extroverted.

It would be possible to have a network of such houses in any of the remote, wilderness or rural places where property is very cheap, and the ghost town localities would welcome a bit of a psychological and economic boost. The young men could raise funds together to support themselves with food and a bit of cash for electricity and internet, via casual hobbies. Their neighbours wouldn't find this kind of lifestyle altogether unappealing, so the typical distrust of such places would be mitigated.

...but it is extremely easy in these cases to sacrifice one's ideals for the sake of resources and popularity. That is the main fear I have regarding your idea of "vehicles". The world doesn't work the same way it did back in the Buddha's time. Nowadays you have to kowtow to the mainstream in one way or another if you want to get anything large and group-based going.

People will notice a group quicker than an individual, and if the group does something they are repulsed by, they won't rest until they either destroy or change it.
Well, a small, productive, quiet, rational group of young men with even tempers and calm personas are generally going to win others over. They have a lot more patience and consistency, so by dint of perseverence, they last longer.

If you want a large number of people to give you attention,...
What large number of people are you talking about? Why should I want their attention, in relation to the TE's? I'm thinking of only appealing to individuals through Youtube vids and the like. It's hardly going to capture the attention of a horde, and I'm not interested in hordes, anyway.

If you do find enough money and resources to create a no-nonsense electronic/real-world space for people to improve society and seek truth, why would they come there when there are so many other such spaces available? Why wouldn't they go instead to Osho, Sting or Sam Harris?
Don't you know?

In the Buddha's time you could create a truly outlying sect, for whatever purpose, and people would come to you. They didn't have as many options as they did now, and the influence of mainstream society did not cover every inhabitable corner of the globe. A lot of them would probably be ones who couldn't find something better or safer, but you'd still have a self-sustaining group with the potential of fostering wisdom in a few people if it has wise people calling the shots.
I'm not trying to create a sect. It's just pooling resources, to have more time and energy for their own individual spiritual progress. The self-governing part would be tricky, but better than an owner-dictator system, which wouldn't be as sustainable.

All that said, I think it would be great if Kevin Solway upgraded his site to >=2003 CE. Maybe improve the design and accessibility, with twitter, facebook or even reddit pages. It wouldn't hurt if he does videos more often. I'm planning on making some videos myself. An integrated menoftheinfinite youtube channel and blog (connected with Kevin's site) with videos from me, Diebert van Rhijn, you, Kevin Solway, David Quinn etc. is certainly achievable.
Well, then, ask Kevin. He's mentioned using twitter for aphorisms, so he'd probably put a link on the Minefield. He's been talking of making a vid analysing women and feminine-mindedness, but it's a tricky one. As for a design update, I don't think that will happen. People are happy with wikipedia.org and gutenberg.org, for instance, and that information is quite plain and basic.

Well, David seemed to have that notion with his blogosphere, but it turned into his own writings only. Maybe Matt Gregory would be interested in creating a splash page site tying the things together as a Men of the Infinite website, with a bunch of editors and contributors able to log in and post essays and links to blogs, vids, etc. I don't know. What vids are you thinking of making?


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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

Leyla Shen wrote:KJ: Is it still misguided, now you know what I meant by a fire? And that very few people are alight?

LS: Yes and no, Kelly. No, because the absurdity in denying the value of wisdom is immediately apparent. And yes, too, because the absurdity in denying the value of wisdom is immediately apparent.
Are you saying that making places for thinkers to study and pool their resources together, is misguided because it's absurd for them to deny the value of wisdom? But if so, in what way are they denying the value of wisdom?

I don't think a commune is going to make you stand out any more or less, and I don't think it would provide any means by which fostering the path would be made any easier but seems more like a sensible way for those already weaned off of society to live.
I wouldn't see it as a commune, in the hippy or Ashram sense. Think of it as a backpacker hostel for thinkers.

I've already mentioned that the reason so many young men struggle to consider the spiritual life in real earnest, is because they don't see any practical way of reconciling worldly means of support with a full-time, whole-of-your-being commitment. This idea of the Thinkers' Estates provides the means to overcome that issue. It is all about making it more possible to abandon society, not helping those already gone.

Here's a question. Why don't you, jupiviv, Diebert, David, etc, get together on that block of land, for example? You could then foster and fortify what you already have without living with the day-to-day distractions of society?
Jupta is in India, Diebert is in the Netherlands (I think), and David is in northern Australia, so it doesn't seem feasible for them to move to Tasmania. Anyway, you're missing the point altogether. It's not for those who are already at ease with their rejection of Woman, but for those who are in great distress because of it, right?


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Leyla Shen
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Leyla Shen »

Oh, a retreat?

With a library full of appropriate resources and plenty of natural space.

I think that's a fine idea.
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Leyla Shen
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Leyla Shen »

It would certainly demonstrate a concrete commitment to the propagation of truth and wisdom.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

Anything you are working on, Leyla, or any wild ideas?
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by jupiviv »

Kelly Jones wrote:Do you get into actual philosophy often with your everyday, face-to-face encounters?
Depends on what philosophy means. If you mean whether I use formal philosophical language, then no. Mostly I just hint at broader issues while talking about mundane ones.
Do I sacrifice my own preference for a quiet life in order to quicken this project's benefit to others, or is the sacrifice too great and actually short-sighted?
I don't see why a quiet life should be considered a requirement for philosophical growth. It could easily be a hindrance.
If you share accommodation, with whom do you live with? If you pay rent, what percentage of your income does this amount to?
I live with my parents, and I don't have a steady job. I do some temporary jobs - mostly data entry, minor database and NAS related work and PC/laptop assembly and maintenance, which cover the pocket money.
What is the population and demographics of your city?
I live in Calcutta.
Who do you tend to "socialise" with, and what kinds of socialising are they?

Mostly people I happen to meet as part of what I do around the day, like the students (sometimes the professors) at the college I'm currently attending, or the people for whom I do jobs. I don't go out of my way to socialise with people if that's what you're asking.
Are you wholly dependent on programming for your income, or, if not, what is the main source of your income?
I'm not dependent on programming at all for my income, because I'm still learning it(I started earlier this year). I hope to reach a level where I can do some PHP and mySQL related work in another 6 months or so.
Do any of those you've met with in person know about your views on women, as clearly and openly as you've expressed them "virtually"? Or do you find it isn't likely you could have such conversations with them?
I've told a few of my friends about them. Usually there is not much scope in the kind of conversations I have to talk about women, at least not in a philosophical way.
What vids are you thinking of making?
I haven't decided yet. They would probably be like the standard talking videos on youtube, i.e, my voice with images and clips. I will talk about any topic that interests me.
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