Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Kelly Jones
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Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

Hi Genius Forum members,

What are your ideas on how to ignite the world-burning fire, that drives people to cross the river of philosophy, and reach the other shore? How would you make the spiritual life visible in today's world, in a practical and down-to-earth sense?

I'd like this thread to be purely concentrated on this topic, please. Stick to it like glue.

Let's hear them: your brainstorming, your pluck-them-out-of-your-wildest-imagination-type-ideas. Don't dig it into practicalities and logistics just yet. If you like, post your reasons behind these ideas. Later, we can look into their practical development, for on-the-ground projects. For now, I am keen to hear possibilities, or impossibilities even, if you get my drift.


Kelly Jones

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jupiviv
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by jupiviv »

On the "cleaning forum" issue: I suggested creating an "archive" sub-forum a couple of months back, and it's nice to see the admins have done so. I also suggest that any new posts/threads that are good or spawn decent discussion chains should be moved to the archive as well, minus the contributions of the groovy gang of course. I was initially for banning Dennis, Kunga, etc., but I think a much better idea is simply putting them on ignore/foe lists.

On topic - practically speaking it is evidently impossible to light a fire like the one you're talking about. However, you can exert a surprising amount of influence if you try every moment of your life to act in complete accordance with your philosophy, not in isolation, but in the midst of the chaos of human life.

I'm not talking about preaching from rooftops or starting an enlightenment club at your university or office. Just place yourself amongst people and immerse yourself in their affairs, their problems, joys and sorrows, while trying your best to stay absolutely true to your ideals. Yes, you will inevitably be scorned, hated and mocked. You will come up against a wide variety of opposing forces. You may even have to admit you are wrong and feel you have lost everything to someone who has nothing to gain from being right. You have to forsake even the most innocent recreation and the most fleeting promise of reward and recognition while you work with more seriousness and intensity than a brain surgeon operating on the president of the USA.

Is all of this worth doing, as opposed to living in a little cottage in the woods with your wife and 2 children, or pumping yourself up with a kilo of yellow jacket and roving the streets of Rio de Janeiro shooting up homeless people? I think so, but I can't provide any absolute and foolproof reason why. Indeed, such a reason doesn't exist. However, I can't for the life of me think of anything better to do.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

jupiviv wrote:any new posts/threads that are good or spawn decent discussion chains should be moved to the archive as well,
Strangely, the Help Desk seems to be doubling as an archive. It's a bit of a mess. I'll ask Kevin if he could move the genuine archive threads into the archive.

I was initially for banning Dennis, Kunga, etc., but I think a much better idea is simply putting them on ignore/foe lists.
I'm not asking for banning, but to see if such as they can't be led (or pushed) to recognise how undesireable their behaviour is, and restrain themselves of their own will. Putting them on "invisible" is not a solution, as it means the trolls control the forum and are spoiling it for everyone. And visitors twig on this dysfunctional atmosphere. It's not fair on them.

It's good if there is intelligent discussion involving disagreement and dissent, because this is just the kind of rounded exploration a topic needs. But trolling dissent is no help at all.

On topic - practically speaking it is evidently impossible to light a fire like the one you're talking about. However, you can exert a surprising amount of influence if you try every moment of your life to act in complete accordance with your philosophy, not in isolation, but in the midst of the chaos of human life.

I'm not talking about preaching from rooftops or starting an enlightenment club at your university or office. Just place yourself amongst people and immerse yourself in their affairs, their problems, joys and sorrows, while trying your best to stay absolutely true to your ideals.
Why do you think it is impossible to kindle the world, practically speaking? Just lighting a fire to heat (or disintegrate?) as many as possible, rather than trying to convert everyone oneself, is what I'm thinking of in "starting a fire".

As for living truthfully in day-to-day existence, yes, I agree that's has an influence. But since day-to-day life never makes any room for genuine and effective philosophical discussion, only for small-talk and fanciful flings, one will find oneself curtailed sharply from having an effect. What people tend to listen to, is a deliberate and orchestrated "vehicle", that slots into their life when they're looking for something. Then they get in, and take a ride somewhere they weren't expecting to go. Hence this thread.........

Also, I'd have to say, in everyday interactions, there is a far smaller number of people one is likely to encounter face-to-face compared to on the internet. The net is much too small, especially when the target group is so tiny and globally scattered.

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jupiviv
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by jupiviv »

Kelly Jones wrote:Putting them on "invisible" is not a solution, as it means the trolls control the forum and are spoiling it for everyone.
Well, you could just do like me and ignore them when you don't want to engage them. A new admin who can monitor the forum more thoroughly and regularly won't hurt either.
Why do you think it is impossible to kindle the world, practically speaking? Just lighting a fire to heat (or disintegrate?) as many as possible, rather than trying to convert everyone oneself, is what I'm thinking of in "starting a fire".
Because of a host of reasons. One of the major ones is that mass culture has either completely destroyed or assimilated smaller cultures. It's no longer possible for a philosophical field of endeavour to exist completely apart from mainstream life like it did as Zen Buddhism in Japan, the European monasteries in the Middle Ages or the Vedic priests in ancient India.
But since day-to-day life never makes any room for genuine and effective philosophical discussion, only for small-talk and fanciful flings, one will find oneself curtailed sharply from having an effect.
I disagree. You don't need to start off with a moderated debate on the nature of existence. Start off with little truths, and try to progress from there. There's plenty of opportunities even in ordinary conversation about, say, politics or sports, to be truthful and to stimulate thought.
What people tend to listen to, is a deliberate and orchestrated "vehicle", that slots into their life when they're looking for something.

Sure, but ultimately one shouldn't approach enlightenment as something magnificent and transmundane, but rather like a coffee mug in one's kitchen. Besides, vehicles tend to break down or run out of fuel. It's better to be introduced to spirituality without actually realising it.

I occasionally converse with Kevin Solway via pms on youtube. In my first message to him I asked him what I needed to do in order to set out on the path to enlightenment. He replied saying that if I wanted to become enlightened then I have to realise that I can never make a woman happy. I thought it was an odd and almost rudely short reply at the time, but in hindsight it was profound and thought-stimulating in a way that a more elaborate reply probably wouldn't be.
Also, I'd have to say, in everyday interactions, there is a far smaller number of people one is likely to encounter face-to-face compared to on the internet. The net is much too small, especially when the target group is so tiny and globally scattered.
The net is fantastic for communication, but you can never have the same effect on people through the net that you would if you talked to them face to face. You also get to learn a lot more about people's mental blocks and fears etc., and how to make them interested in philosophical thought, if you talk to them personally. It's like the difference between listening to music in a concert hall and listening to a recording.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

jupiviv wrote:A new admin who can monitor the forum more thoroughly and regularly won't hurt either.
Agreed.

KJ: Why do you think it is impossible to kindle the world, practically speaking? Just lighting a fire to heat (or disintegrate?) as many as possible, rather than trying to convert everyone oneself, is what I'm thinking of in "starting a fire".

J: Because of a host of reasons. One of the major ones is that mass culture has either completely destroyed or assimilated smaller cultures.
Yet you say a truthful individual can still live openly true to his ideals. Isn't that starting a fire? Remaining unassimilated by mob mentality culture?

KJ: What people tend to listen to, is a deliberate and orchestrated "vehicle", that slots into their life when they're looking for something.

J: Sure, but ultimately one shouldn't approach enlightenment as something magnificent and transmundane, but rather like a coffee mug in one's kitchen. Besides, vehicles tend to break down or run out of fuel. It's better to be introduced to spirituality without actually realising it.

I occasionally converse with Kevin Solway via pms on youtube.
But weren't you initially inspired to contact him because of his website, a "vehicle"?

KJ: Also, I'd have to say, in everyday interactions, there is a far smaller number of people one is likely to encounter face-to-face compared to on the internet. The net is much too small, especially when the target group is so tiny and globally scattered.

J: The net is fantastic for communication, but you can never have the same effect on people through the net that you would if you talked to them face to face. You also get to learn a lot more about people's mental blocks and fears etc., and how to make them interested in philosophical thought, if you talk to them personally. It's like the difference between listening to music in a concert hall and listening to a recording.
Well, to take two perspectives on that:

1. I've learnt more about people's psychologies from observing them in person, yes, but have also found their ability to converse worse. They tend to be more random, forgetful, and emotionally manipulative in person. But people tend to be more deceitful or hypocritical on the internet, pretending to be something they're not, and it's harder to tell. I think both ways are difficult, but at least the bigger net of the internet increases the chances of striking payable ore.

2. Speaking from my own learning curve, I found face-to-face discussions useful with only two people, the rest of it has been studying writings. Regarding internet communication, I learnt a lot just reading the early Genius List emails and the ezBoard version of the Genius Forum, as a silent lurker. Apart from that internet mode, most of the help from others with navigating the first major stepping stones was by a handful of private emails. The overwhelming majority of the internet discussion I engaged in taught me to transcend egotistical reactions, i.e. to apply what I had already learnt.

So I think vehicles are definitely the way to go. Writings, audio recordings, videos, CD-compilations, etc. These are far easier to absorb, because they allow one to think to oneself privately. I tend to think most learners with scope learn not through discussion, but by being stimulated by what others have to say, in some well-presented, well-considered fashion, into thinking it over at length by themselves.

I do agree that those vehicles need to be designed carefully, given the way modern technology is heavily (ab)used by the younger generations, and the kinds of Merged psychologies that this encourages.

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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by jupiviv »

Kelly Jones wrote:
KJ: Why do you think it is impossible to kindle the world, practically speaking? Just lighting a fire to heat (or disintegrate?) as many as possible, rather than trying to convert everyone oneself, is what I'm thinking of in "starting a fire".

J: Because of a host of reasons. One of the major ones is that mass culture has either completely destroyed or assimilated smaller cultures.
Yet you say a truthful individual can still live openly true to his ideals. Isn't that starting a fire? Remaining unassimilated by mob mentality culture?
Not necessarily. Most people probably won't even care that you are unassimilated by mass culture. For all we know Jesus lived to a ripe old age in complete obscurity before someone came along and popularised his teachings.
KJ: What people tend to listen to, is a deliberate and orchestrated "vehicle", that slots into their life when they're looking for something.

J: Sure, but ultimately one shouldn't approach enlightenment as something magnificent and transmundane, but rather like a coffee mug in one's kitchen. Besides, vehicles tend to break down or run out of fuel. It's better to be introduced to spirituality without actually realising it.

I occasionally converse with Kevin Solway via pms on youtube.
But weren't you initially inspired to contact him because of his website, a "vehicle"?
Yes, but I didn't read a lot of the material on that site before thinking about those issues quite a lot by myself. Vehicles of spirituality are only as good as the people in them.
1. I've learnt more about people's psychologies from observing them in person, yes, but have also found their ability to converse worse. They tend to be more random, forgetful, and emotionally manipulative in person. But people tend to be more deceitful or hypocritical on the internet, pretending to be something they're not, and it's harder to tell. I think both ways are difficult, but at least the bigger net of the internet increases the chances of striking payable ore.

Even if people do not agree with or understand you during the conversation itself, what you say can still have a powerful effect upon them if they think about it later.
So I think vehicles are definitely the way to go. Writings, audio recordings, videos, CD-compilations, etc. These are far easier to absorb, because they allow one to think to oneself privately. I tend to think most learners with scope learn not through discussion, but by being stimulated by what others have to say, in some well-presented, well-considered fashion, into thinking it over at length by themselves.
Yes, thinking privately is the most important. Indeed, it is the only kind of thinking there is! However, there is always something more that one takes away from a face to face discussion. Also, immersing oneself in the chaos of human life doesn't necessarily involve communication. It could simply mean going out and observing people.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Pam Seeback »

I came here to extinguish the fire. Obviously, major clash of spiritual goals. Fire waning, caio, no regrets.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by ardy »

movingalways wrote:I came here to extinguish the fire. Obviously, major clash of spiritual goals. Fire waning, caio, no regrets.
How did you plan to extinguish the fires? They burn in all of us and go through to enlightenment according to John Wren-Lewis. Some things like passion travel with us all our lives. If the fire you refer to is something else I would be interested in what it is that is burning?
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by ardy »

Kelly Jones wrote:Hi Genius Forum members,

What are your ideas on how to ignite the world-burning fire, that drives people to cross the river of philosophy, and reach the other shore? How would you make the spiritual life visible in today's world, in a practical and down-to-earth sense?

I'd like this thread to be purely concentrated on this topic, please. Stick to it like glue.

Let's hear them: your brainstorming, your pluck-them-out-of-your-wildest-imagination-type-ideas. Don't dig it into practicalities and logistics just yet. If you like, post your reasons behind these ideas. Later, we can look into their practical development, for on-the-ground projects. For now, I am keen to hear possibilities, or impossibilities even, if you get my drift.


Kelly Jones

.
Kelly I think the ability to cross to the other shore en mass could require that we embrace our animal heritage. How can you live in the moment when the next risk you take is crossing the road?

Getting eaten, or starving to death is far more productive in getting us to drop our delusions and live.

It seems to me still, as I posted here many years ago on the earlier version of this site, that all animals are enlightened, and that is due, I believe to this factor.

We have lost our animal inheritance. Can we get it back without undergoing the currently accepted methods of dropping duality and just seeing?
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Fuel burns.
no fuel no fire
fueled with desire
ashes to ashes
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by ardy »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Fuel burns.
no fuel no fire
fueled with desire
ashes to ashes
Dennis - No fuel, no humanity.
No desire, no need for enlightenment.

Nullity is all you have left.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

jupiviv wrote:KJ: Why do you think it is impossible to kindle the world, practically speaking? Just lighting a fire to heat (or disintegrate?) as many as possible, rather than trying to convert everyone oneself, is what I'm thinking of in "starting a fire".

J: Because of a host of reasons. One of the major ones is that mass culture has either completely destroyed or assimilated smaller cultures.

KJ: Yet you say a truthful individual can still live openly true to his ideals. Isn't that starting a fire? Remaining unassimilated by mob mentality culture?

J: Not necessarily. Most people probably won't even care that you are unassimilated by mass culture. For all we know Jesus lived to a ripe old age in complete obscurity before someone came along and popularised his teachings.

----

KJ: What people tend to listen to, is a deliberate and orchestrated "vehicle", that slots into their life when they're looking for something.

J: Sure, but ultimately one shouldn't approach enlightenment as something magnificent and transmundane, but rather like a coffee mug in one's kitchen. Besides, vehicles tend to break down or run out of fuel. It's better to be introduced to spirituality without actually realising it.

I occasionally converse with Kevin Solway via pms on youtube.

KJ: But weren't you initially inspired to contact him because of his website, a "vehicle"?

J: Yes, but I didn't read a lot of the material on that site before thinking about those issues quite a lot by myself. Vehicles of spirituality are only as good as the people in them.
Goes without saying, doesn't it? Anyway, you've shown by your own case that a spiritual vehicle, or rather, a well-designed spiritual lighter, can be used start a spiritual fire in the right person. You admit Kevin's site was a vehicle in your case, and it worked because you got in and used it. That's the process I'm talking about.

Even if people do not agree with or understand you during the conversation itself, what you say can still have a powerful effect upon them if they think about it later.
Can you describe the face-to-face discussions over the past week, in which you overtly aimed at lighting spiritual fires? I'd be interested to see how your opinions are realised in practical terms, and how you've designed your life for this purpose.

Also, do any of them read your internet writings, such as on the forum, on Youtube, etc.? Or do you think there is a definite Jupiviv vs. [your real name] split in your life?


KJ: So I think vehicles are definitely the way to go. Writings, audio recordings, videos, CD-compilations, etc. These are far easier to absorb, because they allow one to think to oneself privately. I tend to think most learners with scope learn not through discussion, but by being stimulated by what others have to say, in some well-presented, well-considered fashion, into thinking it over at length by themselves.

J: Yes, thinking privately is the most important. Indeed, it is the only kind of thinking there is! However, there is always something more that one takes away from a face to face discussion. Also, immersing oneself in the chaos of human life doesn't necessarily involve communication. It could simply mean going out and observing people.
I think almost every single person who dips their little toe into thinking profoundly about life and what is ultimately real, is inspired to do so by some kind of carefully designed work to stimulate them to thought. So, if you agree, let's skip to the actual ideas for such works.


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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Hey, so far no one has taken the thread seriously in terms of the "visible in today's world". I'm assuming you mean sharing interest in enlightenment to a large number of people. Clearly forms of media are needed (not simply being a great guy as jupiviv suggests), books work well for those who actually read them, which is likely few. You would be better off creating something viral which would probably require video format. Anything too ordinary or not "eye-catching" enough wouldn't have much of a chance of being spread.

Anyway to get anything done on a serious level there would first need to be co-operation between those involved. Something I suggested about a year ago but of course on genius forum most people prefer to make a joke rather than honestly confronting issues together. I've begun small things in the past but have never completed anything seriously due to either a lack of motivation or feeling that no writing is good enough for the task. If you were ever genuinely interested in co-operation that sounds great, but you'd have no luck on genius forums and would need to set up an area of communication elsewhere to work on it. There are lots of simple sites with groups for talking things out, etc.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

ardy wrote:Kelly I think the ability to cross to the other shore en mass ...
I'm only ever talking to an individual.

... could require that we embrace our animal heritage.

How can you live in the moment when the next risk you take is crossing the road?

Getting eaten, or starving to death is far more productive in getting us to drop our delusions and live.
Getting eaten means you're dead. Being dead is not going to make you live wisely.

It seems to me still, as I posted here many years ago on the earlier version of this site, that all animals are enlightened, and that is due, I believe to this factor.

We have lost our animal inheritance. Can we get it back without undergoing the currently accepted methods of dropping duality and just seeing?
Animals are not enlightened. Animals are driven by their emotions. Emotions do not display themselves by transcending attachment to things, but depend on said delusion. For instance, an attachment to sex so fierce, they'd kill a rival mate, when all the time the bag of blood, fur and bones they're so longing to impregnate, isn't the real and discrete thing they chase after.


If you wish to continue this discussion, can you please start a thread on it, and save the thread for its stated purpose (see OP)?

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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Fuel burns.
no fuel no fire
fueled with desire
ashes to ashes
You're contradicting yourself again. If you really believe there is no fuel to burn, then why are you posting? Because you're trying to burn fuel (destroy delusion).

Try to think before you post another mantra.


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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Hey, so far no one has taken the thread seriously in terms of the "visible in today's world". I'm assuming you mean sharing interest in enlightenment to a large number of people. Clearly forms of media are needed (not simply being a great guy as jupiviv suggests), books work well for those who actually read them, which is likely few. You would be better off creating something viral which would probably require video format. Anything too ordinary or not "eye-catching" enough wouldn't have much of a chance of being spread.

Anyway to get anything done on a serious level there would first need to be co-operation between those involved. Something I suggested about a year ago but of course on genius forum most people prefer to make a joke rather than honestly confronting issues together. I've begun small things in the past but have never completed anything seriously due to either a lack of motivation or feeling that no writing is good enough for the task. If you were ever genuinely interested in co-operation that sounds great, but you'd have no luck on genius forums and would need to set up an area of communication elsewhere to work on it. There are lots of simple sites with groups for talking things out, etc.
What was your idea?
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

For which part? When I said "something I suggested" or "begun small things"?
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

Both.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

I suggested co-operation to progress diligently apart from the forum, in communication of ideas and the fine tuning of our understanding (as it would only work with those genuinely interested around). The small things I begun were writing and some simple videos for youtube, neither were satisfactory, though every now and then I progress on the writing.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

Well, there are several projects that could stimulate some thought and progress on your own writings, Seeker, if you were interested.
  • Youtube series titled "To A Wild, Young Genius". Quite a few topics are still incomplete. Description of series: On the common, startlingly insane issues preventing people travelling down the path to wisdom. Topics like: sex, religion, women, religious atheism, academia, scientific materialism, work, music, drugs, art, politics, fantasy, and family.
  • Animation of "The Great Debate". A voice-over part needs to be recorded by an Australian male, and the still graphics tied together and animated.
  • David Quinn's "A film for Men". The last script I saw was magnificent, but I had trouble with animations, and in a fit of grumpiness, chucked in the towel. I would like to get back to it.
  • Additions to The Reasoner's Library, a library subtitled "Thinking without academic waffle". Additions need to be typed up or formatted, and weaker works need commentaries.
  • German translations: Otto Weininger's Geschlect und Charakter, and his other works, Friedrich Nietzsche's Also Sprach Zarathustra, and a work by Esther Vilar. A quarter of the Nietzsche is completed, and the first draft of Weininger's other works is almost completed.
  • Soren Kierkegaard's "The Book of the Judge" made available online, being his journals and papers, of which two of the six volumes are completed, and a third underway. It requires some knowledge of Greek, French, and German.
If any of that interests you, let me know.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

I forgot to add another long-term project to that list. Namely, the "Thinker's Estates". This one is a bit harder, but impossibilities aren't excluded from this thread.

Basically, back in 2007 or so, the thought came to me that the reason so few young men enter the spiritual path, is because most of them don't see any other practical pathway in life, except the pathway to "work and family". Even the MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way, i.e. not marrying) are still stuck within the Money is God, aka "you must work (in a socially acceptable job)" mentality. And they also still have sexual flings, so are still addicted to Woman.

Thinkers' Estates are cheap, simple places to live, much like a centre for thinkers and philosophers. More along the lines of a co-operative backpackers' hostel, rather than a college, monastery or a hippy commune.

The main advantages are:
1. not needing to go to a soul-destroying job ever again,
2. being able to focus 24/7/365 on understanding the nature of Ultimate Reality,
3. pooling resources, and
4. making the spiritual path more visible in everyday life.

Disadvantages:
As thinkers are far more complex individuals, with a much greater need for solitude and freedom than normal, living in close proximity with others may stunt their growth and create uniformity; another disadvantage is that it may remove the necessary stumbling block of conflict with society.

I've taken the first step in the experiment, anyway, and bought some very cheap land in the western wilderness town of Zeehan in Tasmania. Ideas on this project would be welcome, particularly on designing ways to overcome the disadvantages carefully.


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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Dennis Mahar »

The thang is ardy and I can only report this to you like a journalist.

breaking thru the house of language
recognising the limits to thought

The direct experience of emptiness being nonconceptual

terms like finite, infinite, nullity, existence, nonexistence etc have no substance whatsoever
merely conventional designations.
astonishing!
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Kelly Jones »

Little Troll,

Ultimate Reality is conceptual, because wise concepts, which are manifestions of Reality, point to it, so they point to themselves.

You will never understand this point, until you understand the words you use, and apply their meaning. That is, when you realise it doesn't matter what concepts you use, as you will still be in the thick of Reality.


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SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

"Thinkers Estate" sounds like a great idea, good initiative. Tho of course there are lots of stumbling blocks, perhaps using the internet to spread material is a simpler option.
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Re: Projects for: "I have come to start a fire..."

Post by Dennis Mahar »

The ultimate reality of phenomena is voidness.
geddit?
Nothin' to get.
nothin' to fix.
Locked