Enlightenment / Despair

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Cold Cave
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Enlightenment / Despair

Post by Cold Cave »

Hello again

I've noticed the geniuses highly regarded in this forum (Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, Jesus, Weininger) all seemed to suffer from deep despair, at least for a time.

Now I don't regard myself as a genius, but I struggle with despair. I would describe it as a kind of existential despair, coupled with the loneliness of one who values truth and wisdom.

To those that have struggled with existential despair or loneliness, how have you been able to overcome it? Or is this something that just comes with the territory of being truthful?
At what point would you recommend someone see a therapist, or consider medication?
Do enlightened sages ever need a shoulder to cry on?
Is the desire for human touch an irrational emotional attachment to the world?
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Matt Gregory
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by Matt Gregory »

Yeah, I can totally relate. I've come to appreciate it, though (maybe I've developed an unhealthy addiction to it?) I feel like it motivates me.

I honestly think it's a symptom of advancing towards something new, away from the familiar. When the change happens on such a fundamental level that philosophy addresses, it triggers fundamental instincts. Basically, you're just having a bad day :)
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Cold Cave wrote: I've noticed the geniuses highly regarded in this forum (Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, Jesus, Weininger) all seemed to suffer from deep despair, at least for a time.

Now I don't regard myself as a genius, but I struggle with despair. I would describe it as a kind of existential despair, coupled with the loneliness of one who values truth and wisdom.
When the self is being questioned and re-evaluated in regards to truth some consequences of that could be the appearance of symptoms normally associated with depression, self-esteem issues or some antisocial disorder. A more common phrase is "dark night of the soul" (in spiritual books) or "disintegration" (in psychological books). Nobody ever said it would be a walk in the park but what could help is to maintain some kind of belief, in this case the faith that these moods, even the deepest blackest ones, like everything else are in motion and will pass.

That being said, there are basic health issues which should not be ignored. A regular daylight based rhythm, physical activity, outside walks and a somewhat balanced diet are factors as well. In extreme cases some further tuning or medical advice would be in order. Moods and feelings generally rise as response to a body state -- which we can influence somewhat -- or a mental disorientation, which can be alleviated by learning to orientate.
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Kunga
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by Kunga »

Do the opposite of what you are presently doing.
If you are alone and lonely...surround yourself with people..involve yourself in activities that forces you to interact with others ...
eventually you will get so sick of being with people and all that entails, that you will crave to be alone and love being by yourself in peace...

I have delt with depression all my life.
I've been a truthseeker all my life.
I've been surrounded by people all my life....

Don't ever get attached to people, all they will do is suck your energy and disapoint.
Animals are more intelligent, and worthy of your time.
Leyla Shen
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by Leyla Shen »

Hi, Cold Cave:

I will attempt to address the balance of your post. (:
Do enlightened sages ever need a shoulder to cry on?

Is the desire for human touch an irrational emotional attachment to the world?
Is enlightenment a permanent state?

Personage is a misidentification, since an enlightened sage cannot possibly appear in the unenlightened mind and remain enlightened; there can be no external distinction between himself and enlightenment.

“If you will conceive of a Buddha, you will be obstructed by that Buddha.”
Last edited by Leyla Shen on Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Leyla Shen
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by Leyla Shen »

The quote is by Huang Po, by the way.
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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by Cory Duchesne »

Cold Cave wrote:Hello again


To those that have struggled with existential despair or loneliness, how have you been able to overcome it?
The way I have overcome despair is the same way I have fallen into it. It's been helpful for me to learn practical skills, to meet up with new people and even have girlfriends. All of these things can boost your energy, increase your creativity and your productivity.

But they will eventually yield to deeper forms of self-insight, and with that, despair. But then you just gather up your energy for another go at it. It's a swing back and forth between Apollonian and Dionysian engagements. I see the Dionysian as more social, power-oriented, and feminine. The Apollonian is more rational, resigned, masculine, and solitary.

There are no easy answers. The greater the highs the greater the lows, and for that reason, I tend to do things more and more moderately, more simply, more minimally. You learn to enjoy the details because it's the details that always spoil a persons happiness.

It also helps to plan your life all the way to the end. Find a place to live that's convenient and commit yourself to a vision.
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ardy
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by ardy »

When you come to the point of 'really' thinking for yourself you automatically become alone. The opportunity to discuss things, at the level you want to discuss them, is never, or very rarely available.

On the other side of the coin you are responsible for your own happiness, and it is one of the easier things to obtain.

Dragging a sad brain around with you is not helpful to either you or anyone else you meet. Meditation is the right road here BUT! it is not easy and it's results are not obvious.

Some of the signs of internal happiness I notice in my self when I am meditating regularly is a certain lightness of step. I find myself singing some well known song in my brain, there is a greater tolerance to the stupidity around you. And so it goes. It does not promote the superficial happiness that people get when they meet someone attractive who likes them as well. It is much deeper than that.

BTW - The only way out of despair is action.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

ardy wrote: The only way out of despair is action.

Great example of classic ignorance.

I thought about it for 2 seconds, it sounded good to me, it was written, and thus it is absolute.

Cheers to those who *don't* get sick of reading people do this for every topic, everywhere.

Some advice ardy, stop clinging to all those beliefs, some which can be so subtle or common to you that you won't recognize they are even beliefs.
Cold Cave
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by Cold Cave »

ardy wrote: Dragging a sad brain around with you is not helpful to either you or anyone else you meet.
I don't sulk around. I try to be polite and courteous with everyone I interact with. I even experience elevated moods from time to time.

Cory Duchesne wrote: It also helps to plan your life all the way to the end. Find a place to live that's convenient and commit yourself to a vision.
Yes, I think I need a vision.
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ardy
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by ardy »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:
ardy wrote: The only way out of despair is action.

Great example of classic ignorance.

I thought about it for 2 seconds, it sounded good to me, it was written, and thus it is absolute.

Cheers to those who *don't* get sick of reading people do this for every topic, everywhere.

Some advice ardy, stop clinging to all those beliefs, some which can be so subtle or common to you that you won't recognize they are even beliefs.

Yes accepted I can get too absolute in my thinking. Once you analyse something and come to a conclusion you tend to move on. I have tested this against myself and others as it is from the Guna's and struck me as a correct method of getting out of Tamas.

If it doesn't work for you no big thing. BUT it does work for many people.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

You'll have to elaborate on "Guna" and "Tamas" for me.
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ardy
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by ardy »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:You'll have to elaborate on "Guna" and "Tamas" for me.
Had a wander around the internet and I think this site explains it about the best. http://www.meditationyoga.com.au/austra ... gunas.html
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by Kelly Jones »

Cold Cave wrote:Hello again

I've noticed the geniuses highly regarded in this forum (Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, Jesus, Weininger) all seemed to suffer from deep despair, at least for a time.

Now I don't regard myself as a genius, but I struggle with despair. I would describe it as a kind of existential despair, coupled with the loneliness of one who values truth and wisdom.

To those that have struggled with existential despair or loneliness, how have you been able to overcome it? Or is this something that just comes with the territory of being truthful?
At what point would you recommend someone see a therapist, or consider medication?
Do enlightened sages ever need a shoulder to cry on?
Is the desire for human touch an irrational emotional attachment to the world?
Existential despair belongs to the unenlightened, who don't recognise that the finite self is not really there. They continue to struggle and strive over themselves, trying to grasp and conquer some aspect of self, when it is essentially not graspable at all. That is what they agonise over.

For those who've seen the true nature of self, loneliness comes from not being enlightened enough. They still want safety in the crowd. They believe in that world of personal advantage. It takes time to deal with this deep egotistical hang-over. Being enlightened essentially involves sacrifice and renunciation: so it takes time to make these deep psychological changes.

The only advantage from seeing a therapist or medication, is to spurn one away from such methods. Their advice is basically to give solace to the ego; but it can be mainstream psychotherapy is the only solution for some. Eventually, if your motive from seeking their help is pure, you'll realise how regressive their intentions are, and the sooner you abandon their help, the better.

I wrote about loneliness vs. aloneness a few days ago, as I'm working on part two of "100 Seaside Nights", titled "100 Isolations of Will". This is the extract:
Loneliness — aloneness

When you come to have faith in your rational mind, knowing your own reasoning to be valid — despite the mindless and irrational attempts of others to convince you that reason is dubious (those being, of course, the ignore-worthy and laughable attempts to prove reasoning is dubious) — you are alone, more than ever.

The would-be thinker, the budding sage, is well-adapted to solitude. It is his natural psychological and 'social' environment. Thinking comes easiest and clearest when alone; for that matter, it only happens by one's own thought, so by necessity it comes alone. But the consequences of expressing one's thoughts — that is another matter.

Let me distinguish what is meant by loneliness for clarity's sake, so to overcome this obstacle. The point of discussing loneliness in a work on the will to consciousness and being courageous, is to destroy obstacles to wisdom. As this loneliness is a subtle delusion, in that sense, it is an obstacle. But there is more to it than that, because it is a major psychological obstacle that, if allowed to continue, will surely develop validity in the thinker's mind, whence it will fester into an ugly and deep-rooted cancer which works against directly and virulently against self-overcoming. It is so important to address this, that there will be several more exercises on the nature of demoralisation and spiritual apathy.

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •

1. Animal loneliness. The first basic clarification is that it is not animal immediacy's loneliness.

Desiring to socialise; to have friends to while away a seemingly endless period of boredom; to find an interesting distraction in what the 'others' are doing; to distance oneself from one's uncomfortable emotions or twinges of a bad conscience by finding others who are worse off (and then one can return to one's own discomfort, feeling that it is quite bearable, and therefore, one can gloatingly remain apathetic about the issue); to find a like-minded companion to thrash out an interesting idea, or find alternative solutions, or seek their approval and authorisation; or pursue sexually gratifying feelings with a tempting fling, or other forms of emotional games of domination and submission to boost your self-esteem and ego: these are some of the dalliances of the loneliness of animal immediacy. These form a genuine type of loneliness, but it is not the loneliness one experiences on having a self, on being an individual, on valuing thought. This is not the kind of loneliness that the thinker must overcome, since he has already overcome it.

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •

2. Natural loneliness. The second basic clarification is that it is not the simple desire for solitude typical of the thinker.

The solitary thinker doesn't by nature desire to be alone, but rather values the experience of good thinking and clear understanding, which just happens to require solitude. Being alone happens to be typical, but the thinker doesn't seek to be alone: the loneliness of seeking an absence of company. He seeks, instead, reason: good thinking and clear understanding.

If he experiences too much unreason in himself, he experiences that loneliness, so one can easily see that it is not a loneliness of being isolated from others. It is a loneliness of missing the company of good thinking.

In the company of people behaving and speaking thoughtlessly and foolishly, this loneliness makes itself strongly felt, because it is harder to remedy. But again, it is the absence of these persons' folly and not the absence of the persons themselves, that the thinker desires. One is not so much seeking to be alone, as for these wretched, impoverished, derelict folk to know the good company, the good friendship, of reason. One misses the company of reason for their sake (which is, for the sake of reason.)

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •

3. Involuntary loneliness.

But now, the possibility arises for aloneness, or spiritual individuality. It is in only in their company, the company of the ignorant, and only once they learn his desire for their good, and only once they attack him for such a noble wish, that the opportunity appears to climb towards aloneness.

An involuntary loneliness arises on learning how laborious and long-winded is the process of dragging others up to a level where candid, genuine communication can occur. It is still coming from the egotistical need for safety in numbers, from desiring wise companions, from knowing there is nothing more he or his society can do, to fill his emotional need for reprieve from the ongoing strain of educating the others. The wish for understanding when it is not available from anyone on earth, is an irrational desire for consolation, since it speaks of some degree of hatred of Reality. But experiencing involuntary loneliness provides an opportunity to climb towards aloneness: a purified mind where one accepts Reality in all its forms, seeing the core truth and not distracted by the forms it takes, let alone the benefits or disadvantages of those forms.

It is difficult to transcend the solitary's reluctant but resigned acknowledgment that there are very few people who can understand him, no matter how hard he tries to edify and instruct. However, who could he turn to? Who could console? Ultimately, only enlightenment resolves and undermines the suffering of involuntary loneliness; thus, the solitary recognises the folly of looking for a human, earthly, finite confidant.
Cold Cave
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by Cold Cave »

Kelly Jones wrote:
Cold Cave wrote:Hello again

I've noticed the geniuses highly regarded in this forum (Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, Jesus, Weininger) all seemed to suffer from deep despair, at least for a time.

Now I don't regard myself as a genius, but I struggle with despair. I would describe it as a kind of existential despair, coupled with the loneliness of one who values truth and wisdom.

To those that have struggled with existential despair or loneliness, how have you been able to overcome it? Or is this something that just comes with the territory of being truthful?
At what point would you recommend someone see a therapist, or consider medication?
Do enlightened sages ever need a shoulder to cry on?
Is the desire for human touch an irrational emotional attachment to the world?
Existential despair belongs to the unenlightened, who don't recognise that the finite self is not really there. They continue to struggle and strive over themselves, trying to grasp and conquer some aspect of self, when it is essentially not graspable at all. That is what they agonise over.

For those who've seen the true nature of self, loneliness comes from not being enlightened enough. They still want safety in the crowd. They believe in that world of personal advantage. It takes time to deal with this deep egotistical hang-over. Being enlightened essentially involves sacrifice and renunciation: so it takes time to make these deep psychological changes.

The only advantage from seeing a therapist or medication, is to spurn one away from such methods. Their advice is basically to give solace to the ego; but it can be mainstream psychotherapy is the only solution for some. Eventually, if your motive from seeking their help is pure, you'll realise how regressive their intentions are, and the sooner you abandon their help, the better.

I wrote about loneliness vs. aloneness a few days ago, as I'm working on part two of "100 Seaside Nights", titled "100 Isolations of Will". This is the extract:
Loneliness — aloneness

When you come to have faith in your rational mind, knowing your own reasoning to be valid — despite the mindless and irrational attempts of others to convince you that reason is dubious (those being, of course, the ignore-worthy and laughable attempts to prove reasoning is dubious) — you are alone, more than ever.

The would-be thinker, the budding sage, is well-adapted to solitude. It is his natural psychological and 'social' environment. Thinking comes easiest and clearest when alone; for that matter, it only happens by one's own thought, so by necessity it comes alone. But the consequences of expressing one's thoughts — that is another matter.

Let me distinguish what is meant by loneliness for clarity's sake, so to overcome this obstacle. The point of discussing loneliness in a work on the will to consciousness and being courageous, is to destroy obstacles to wisdom. As this loneliness is a subtle delusion, in that sense, it is an obstacle. But there is more to it than that, because it is a major psychological obstacle that, if allowed to continue, will surely develop validity in the thinker's mind, whence it will fester into an ugly and deep-rooted cancer which works against directly and virulently against self-overcoming. It is so important to address this, that there will be several more exercises on the nature of demoralisation and spiritual apathy.

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •

1. Animal loneliness. The first basic clarification is that it is not animal immediacy's loneliness.

Desiring to socialise; to have friends to while away a seemingly endless period of boredom; to find an interesting distraction in what the 'others' are doing; to distance oneself from one's uncomfortable emotions or twinges of a bad conscience by finding others who are worse off (and then one can return to one's own discomfort, feeling that it is quite bearable, and therefore, one can gloatingly remain apathetic about the issue); to find a like-minded companion to thrash out an interesting idea, or find alternative solutions, or seek their approval and authorisation; or pursue sexually gratifying feelings with a tempting fling, or other forms of emotional games of domination and submission to boost your self-esteem and ego: these are some of the dalliances of the loneliness of animal immediacy. These form a genuine type of loneliness, but it is not the loneliness one experiences on having a self, on being an individual, on valuing thought. This is not the kind of loneliness that the thinker must overcome, since he has already overcome it.

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •

2. Natural loneliness. The second basic clarification is that it is not the simple desire for solitude typical of the thinker.

The solitary thinker doesn't by nature desire to be alone, but rather values the experience of good thinking and clear understanding, which just happens to require solitude. Being alone happens to be typical, but the thinker doesn't seek to be alone: the loneliness of seeking an absence of company. He seeks, instead, reason: good thinking and clear understanding.

If he experiences too much unreason in himself, he experiences that loneliness, so one can easily see that it is not a loneliness of being isolated from others. It is a loneliness of missing the company of good thinking.

In the company of people behaving and speaking thoughtlessly and foolishly, this loneliness makes itself strongly felt, because it is harder to remedy. But again, it is the absence of these persons' folly and not the absence of the persons themselves, that the thinker desires. One is not so much seeking to be alone, as for these wretched, impoverished, derelict folk to know the good company, the good friendship, of reason. One misses the company of reason for their sake (which is, for the sake of reason.)

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •

3. Involuntary loneliness.

But now, the possibility arises for aloneness, or spiritual individuality. It is in only in their company, the company of the ignorant, and only once they learn his desire for their good, and only once they attack him for such a noble wish, that the opportunity appears to climb towards aloneness.

An involuntary loneliness arises on learning how laborious and long-winded is the process of dragging others up to a level where candid, genuine communication can occur. It is still coming from the egotistical need for safety in numbers, from desiring wise companions, from knowing there is nothing more he or his society can do, to fill his emotional need for reprieve from the ongoing strain of educating the others. The wish for understanding when it is not available from anyone on earth, is an irrational desire for consolation, since it speaks of some degree of hatred of Reality. But experiencing involuntary loneliness provides an opportunity to climb towards aloneness: a purified mind where one accepts Reality in all its forms, seeing the core truth and not distracted by the forms it takes, let alone the benefits or disadvantages of those forms.

It is difficult to transcend the solitary's reluctant but resigned acknowledgment that there are very few people who can understand him, no matter how hard he tries to edify and instruct. However, who could he turn to? Who could console? Ultimately, only enlightenment resolves and undermines the suffering of involuntary loneliness; thus, the solitary recognises the folly of looking for a human, earthly, finite confidant.
Thanks, good stuff. I'll check out your other writings as well
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Enlightenment / Despair

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Ineffable silence.

of course if you recommend silence you've wrecked the silence.
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