Suffering Revisited

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Well, there's a Goddess and I got to her hut's door and saw her in her lustrous garment.
She withdrew of course and I found my self in wasteland again.

Never mind.

Bliss.

Yesterday I went around the front and a possum lay dying on the grass.
Blowflies were striking it and it weakly moved to brush them off.
I put a towel over the poss and sat with it for hours and hours and it passed away.

Never mind.

Bliss.

It's unknown why the skandhas form and generate personhood but there it is.
Ignorance (lack of education) is the belief in it as ultimately existing in and of itself or as other nature than dependently arisen.
It is what it is and isn't what it isn't.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Dennis Mahar wrote: Never mind.

Bliss.
I'm not suggesting an alternative, but I am curious as to how you see this^ in relation to the possibility of continuous physical torture/pain which is to be expected through unending existence? Do you accept it as an unavoidable?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Dennis Mahar »

The Buddha seems to contradict himself.
Life is suffering.
An end to suffering.

How so?
Could it be an end to personhood?
That gone.
Thus gone.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Do you suggest the pain/torture would go with it?

Such a discussion doesn't seem relevant right now, but it is relevant to many right now, and will be for all at different times. More than that, such a discussion seems to require idea-clinging (which is seen as fleeting and meaningless), but nevertheless we know conditions will bring about such torture unavoidably, and naturally it can be ongoing for hours, days, even years, can't say. Though of course we can brush it off and say "rarely happens", or "it's fleeting", not to worry, and that seems all well and good, very true, it's usually the case, but that also seems a bit like causal luck. Then again, some immolate.

I can't see not clinging to personhood as an end to this, nor a full recognition of meaninglessness, of impermanence, of 'nothing exists', of reality, of existence in it's bliss.

Perhaps there is no contradiction with the Buddha. Perhaps eventually we end up residing where there is no perception or awareness of even mental formations, of direction, time, a body, self, world, etc. That residing is. Speaking of that possibility though sounds 'wrong', in the same sense as 'one fine day', 'special state', idea-clinging, etc.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Dennis Mahar »

put it this way:

Any conceptions that are held must be based on thoughts of identity and difference.
“I” am different from this desk which is in front of me, only thus can there be a subject relating to it as a different object.

That gone.
not believed.
gone thus.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Pam Seeback »

The Buddha revealed the path to liberation, this was his genius.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Dennis Mahar »

huggies?
(:
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Dennis Mahar wrote:put it this way:

Any conceptions that are held must be based on thoughts of identity and difference.
“I” am different from this desk which is in front of me, only thus can there be a subject relating to it as a different object.

That gone.
not believed.
gone thus.

Yeah, but you didn't really talk about the point. When the table breaks, no worries, when through uncontrolled causal eternity one runs into years of torture, that's different from the table getting hacked apart isn't it, whether or not there is clinging to personhood or identity. Beside the point really, you imply there's a choice about the state of mind or situation, any increased or more clear awareness that we may have comes across not out of choice and cannot be maintained through eternity by sheer will, who is to say it remains? Is that the faith moving was talking about?

It remains that at the moment we are 'well-off', are the billions of other beings in the same situation? Will it remain this way?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Dennis Mahar »

There's not a hair on a head out of place anywhere anytime.
How could there be?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Nice meaningless concept there, someone saying there's something out of place is making it up due to perspective and meaning-making, cool, avoiding the pain and lamentation part.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Kelly Jones »

MA wrote:Human nature is self-nature that fiercely clings to/protects something eternally "becoming." My question for you which is the same question I ask myself several times a day: are you a self-of-fierce clinging/protecting something "becoming" or to use your words, are you an enlightened one devoid of self-nature?
If you're clinging to self-nature-voidness, you're making another mistake. This "Do-Nothing", "reject any position" attitude is probably why Dennis is spiritually quite a weak man. It leads to so many contradictions that he has to resort to very short posts, frequently repeating the same mantras of "it's all empty" and "none of it matters", to avoid making them obvious to himself. But he tends not to be able to apply this technique to his own emotional detachment.

I find it interesting that Hakuin regarded the samurai warrior's on-edge and constant fierce attention, to be superb qualifications for achieving meditative discipline. That is certainly a fierce protective spirit, the one who "guards his mind like an unprotected wound":


Ever since I reached middle life I have been of the opinion that there is no better state of life for the voluntary undertaking of the meditative discipline than the life of the warrior. A warrior can never, day or night, permit any cowardice or weakness in his body. Whether in his public duties or in his social life he has to be very careful and strict. He must see that his coiffure is properly set. His ceremonial dress, his 'hakama' and 'haori', his long and his short swords must be carefully attached to his girdle. His manners and his every movement must be such that his inner spirit, as it were, overflows so as to be evident to all who meet him. And think of him as he is mounted on a fine and powerful steed, advancing against millions of enemies --- going forward through their midst as if he were in a great open space without any people in it. His expression of face is that of one who will cut through and break down all his foes. That is the bright and clear spirit of meditation. When the warrior goes forth in that spirit he may attain in one month to spiritual energy which would take the ordinary priest who deliberately leaves the world a whole year or more to attain to. What one who leaves the world would need a hundred days to acquire of spiritual power, such a warrior may have the fortune to obtain in three days.


- From The Embossed Tea Kettle (part of Yasen Kanna)


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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Everything you say is derivative.
you provide the meaning.

savvy?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Yeah, how's that going to help someone who's never heard of such a thing, or anything even close, from the great pain experienced?

If you had any sense you'd say it doesn't.

Even if bliss were to remain for those with recognition, what about all those without a clue?


Repeating the same thing doesn't answer a different question.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

movingalways wrote:The Buddha revealed the path to liberation, this was his genius.
SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Do you suggest the pain/torture would go with it?

Such a discussion doesn't seem relevant right now, but it is relevant to many right now, and will be for all at different times. More than that, such a discussion seems to require idea-clinging (which is seen as fleeting and meaningless), but nevertheless we know conditions will bring about such torture unavoidably, and naturally it can be ongoing for hours, days, even years, can't say. Though of course we can brush it off and say "rarely happens", or "it's fleeting", not to worry, and that seems all well and good, very true, it's usually the case, but that also seems a bit like causal luck. Then again, some immolate.

I can't see not clinging to personhood as an end to this, nor a full recognition of meaninglessness, of impermanence, of 'nothing exists', of reality, of existence in it's bliss.

Perhaps there is no contradiction with the Buddha. Perhaps eventually we end up residing where there is no perception or awareness of even mental formations, of direction, time, a body, self, world, etc. That residing is. Speaking of that possibility though sounds 'wrong', in the same sense as 'one fine day', 'special state', idea-clinging, etc.

Moving,your thoughts? an end to existence?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Repeating the same thing doesn't answer a different question.
The repeat is only for his own benefit. It answers all his questions preemptively. Isn't it clever?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Just as clever would be a very simple Dennis-doll that repeats one phrase when you pull the string.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Until you realise your whole life is predicated
hermeneutically interpreted for you
always/already predicated on something
Anyone can do sophistry and insult

you do not understand dependent arising
the Interminable chain of mental fabrication appearing real.

Emptiness means absence of thought

Parlaying the word gold isnt gold
parlaying the word spiritual is name only

geddit?

Buddha taught dependent arising/bliss
the quiet bliss of knowing stuff more than a wiki addicted machine person.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Kelly Jones »

Dennis Mahar wrote:you do not understand dependent arising
the Interminable chain of mental fabrication appearing real.
Everything constructed by mind is real, because it's all part of Ultimate Reality. If you think it's not real, then you're despising Reality itself.

Emptiness means absence of thought
What rubbish. All things lack inherent existence, so it's no use trying to stop thinking. Everything remains perfectly empty, whether you're thinking, singing, walking, shooting billiard balls, decomposing and feeding worms, whatever.


As Hakuin put it, trying to stop thinking is like stretching your hands out to stop a raging flood. He also referred to monks trying to enter nothingness and put a complete cessation to their thoughts as dunces, who were all the while doing and thinking a great deal.


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ardy
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by ardy »

Kelly Jones wrote:
Dennis Mahar wrote:you do not understand dependent arising
the Interminable chain of mental fabrication appearing real.
Everything constructed by mind is real, because it's all part of Ultimate Reality. If you think it's not real, then you're despising Reality itself.

Depends on what is reality, and I'm not sure anyone knows for certain. I see a chair and sit on it, is it real? I assume so or I would end up on the floor.

I see a girl I like and I'm convinced she cares for me, is this correct? probably not, but the mental construct seems real to me at the time, reality shows its head when she accuses me of being a stalker and calls the police.


Emptiness means absence of thought
What rubbish. All things lack inherent existence, so it's no use trying to stop thinking. Everything remains perfectly empty, whether you're thinking, singing, walking, shooting billiard balls, decomposing and feeding worms, whatever.


As Hakuin put it, trying to stop thinking is like stretching your hands out to stop a raging flood. He also referred to monks trying to enter nothingness and put a complete cessation to their thoughts as dunces, who were all the while doing and thinking a great deal.

Agree and this seems to be the trap many who jump up and down about emptiness fall into.


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Last edited by ardy on Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ardy
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by ardy »

It strikes me that trying to embrace emptiness or trying to perceive it are both nearly impossible. Do you think it is something that falls on you [like enlightenment] or can you find it in any ordinary mind?
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Kelly Jones »

ardy wrote:It strikes me that trying to embrace emptiness or trying to perceive it are both nearly impossible. Do you think it is something that falls on you [like enlightenment] or can you find it in any ordinary mind?
Enlightenment is perceiving emptiness, namely, the true nature of all things being empty of inherent existence.

ardy wrote:DM: you do not understand dependent arising
the Interminable chain of mental fabrication appearing real.

KJ: Everything constructed by mind is real, because it's all part of Ultimate Reality. If you think it's not real, then you're despising Reality itself.

A: Depends on what is reality, and I'm not sure anyone knows for certain. I see a chair and sit on it, is it real? I assume so or I would end up on the floor.

I see a girl I like and I'm convinced she cares for me, is this correct? probably not, but the mental construct seems real to me at the time, reality shows its head when she accuses me of being a stalker and calls the police.
Ultimate Reality is what is ultimately real for all things, whether they're mental constructs like believing a girl likes you, or sensory perceptions of a chair, or sheer delusions like believing in the selfless love of someone who wants to possess you.

Ultimate Reality doesn't mean a specific finite world, like a hidden universe. It doesn't mean, finding out what motivates people. It is a purely metaphysical concept, referring to how things exist.

One can recognise that an understanding of an Ultimate Reality can't be achieved through the scientific method, because that always presupposes reliance on the senses. Since proof for theories explaining sensory data need to be continually revised whenever new sensory data crops up, and the senses are intrinsically selective and limited, it is obvious that any conclusion about sensory data is provisional and incomplete. Thus, there is no way one can find an "ultimate" through the senses.

Metaphysics is about the ultimate reality of the physical and any other realm, and is a philosophical knowledge. It encompasses any reality, world, concept, thing, consciousness, universe, appearance, or form. It approaches these things using pure logic, and not sensory data. This is why it is called the "a priori" method, since it reaches conclusions prior to referring to any sensory data.


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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Dennis Mahar »

You haven't got a clue Jones.
sure emptiness is conceptualised or philosophised as a theory of no-theory and that's not it.-, its just an attempt to circle the wagons around it with language to possibly convey it.

the direct experience of emptiness discovers a complete absence, groundlessness, nothingness.
You have not thought thru' causality.

You merely impute labels.
All your labels are derivitive.

to persist in broadcasting your confusion is a travesty.
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Leyla Shen »

Dennis Mahar wrote:You haven't got a clue Jones.
sure emptiness is conceptualised or philosophised as a theory of no-theory and that's not it.-, its just an attempt to circle the wagons around it with language to possibly convey it.

the direct experience of emptiness discovers a complete absence, groundlessness, nothingness.
You have not thought thru' causality.

You merely impute labels.
All your labels are derivitive.

to persist in broadcasting your confusion is a travesty.
So, you are suggesting that Heidegger's "anxiety" is equivalent to enlightenment; that a self, disillusioned with the meaninglessness of practical existence, constitutes the pinnacle/perfect expression of enlightenment?
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Kelly Jones »

Dennis Mahar wrote:You haven't got a clue Jones.
sure emptiness is conceptualised or philosophised as a theory of no-theory and that's not it.-, its just an attempt to circle the wagons around it with language to possibly convey it.

the direct experience of emptiness discovers a complete absence, groundlessness, nothingness.
You have not thought thru' causality.
So you think language and concepts have to be got rid of, before one can directly experience emptiness, do you?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Suffering Revisited

Post by Dennis Mahar »

an end to philosophy obviously.

job done.
Locked