Suffering Revisited

[Kunga]

Nothing but doubts! I try to live my life by the 'don't know' principal which is at the heart of everything...

Have you always been this way ? I've been very gullible[trusting] all my life....like a child...believing in everything.....then getting disappointed when I learn the truth....as I've gotten older, the "I don't know" has settled in more. But I still keep an open mind.

Sorry to hear you have experienced heaven and hell, neither is preferable to a good life.

I think what I've experienced is typical of most beings on Earth....I can't imagine never feeling the bliss of many things that are blissful, although temporary pleasures....also the pain of the hellish things experienced are temporary. I can't imagine a good life without feeling blissful. This, fortunately, is more prevalent than the hellish states I experience.

atoms into other things as little is lost on the planet. Therefore I morph into rocks, soil and even other living forms. Re-birth as the Buddhists believe is a worm to catch a weasel.

Yes that too [morphing/atoms] one can logically see that.
But there is also the practice of phowa [transferring ones consciousness into another body], that is practiced by some Buddhists.
I don't suspect those that claim this can be done, are lying.
I have faith, more than skeptical inclinations, regarding Buddhism [Theravada, Mahayana & Vajrayana ].

Faith :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Buddhism

[SeekerOfWisdom]

I can contemplate re-incarnation as a movement of my atoms into other things as little is lost on the planet. Therefore I morph into rocks, soil and even other living forms.

I sincerely hope ardy, that your atoms end up forming into a being which experiences comfort and happiness. Instead of morphing into a rock, that would be horrible.

[ardy]

Ha! to you too - Hakuin did initiate it and smart of you to notice. Still a teaching in the present with a concrete example is a rare thing. Yes it is more than a simple tale of morality it points to where we live, also how our emotions drive us to the crazy world and our logic and sense drives us to the sane world as long as it is not taken too far, our balance is critical.

Hey stop suckin' up! Could you say how you'd imagine that "balance"? Do you mean we need a bit of insanity, cruely and torture just too offset all that peace and understanding?

As an aside: is it too much to ask how you stumbled upon this forum? You sound pretty comfortable so I suspect you've been around reading at least. Or you are just that way :)

DV-rant is that less sucking for your ego to fight against? Hope so..We are everything wrapped up in a bundle of odds and sods and let loose on the world. To suppress one part and open up another part is natural and essential at some level - As some Zen woman in the USA said "don't worry about Buddha's issues, fix your own". The balance is all over the place and structured around our own understanding [which is then finalised and released following enlightenment, I suppose, based on what i have read.

There is nothing I can imagine more boring than living in a world where there is only peace and understanding, and our fundamental monkey nature is strangled and left on the side walk. Imagine no greed, no desires or lusts, no conflict of ideas [as you understand everyone's POV], Picking up a new car means nothing, talking about what needs scratching on your mind meets with a nodding idiot who 'understands' and empathises. I think I would turn to suicide for the first time in my life..One thing I have found funny is what I call Zenoids, people wandering around, meditating twice a day with a smile on their face and being nice to everyone because they feel secretly superior, what have they to do with the Buddha, Jesus or any other fully enlightened person? Would they be threatened with death and driven off for 15 years like Hui Neng or killed as Jesus was. Maybe what I am trying to say is that our existence is our existence and focussing on peace and understanding is a weak approach to dealing with our [your] complex nature.

I came here looking around for someone to discuss my thoughts with. I was on the original Genius forum about 10+ years ago, but it became an ego battleground and I bailed out. This iteration seems much better.

[ardy]

Nothing but doubts! I try to live my life by the 'don't know' principal which is at the heart of everything...

Have you always been this way ? I've been very gullible[trusting] all my life....like a child...believing in everything.....then getting disappointed when I learn the truth....as I've gotten older, the "I don't know" has settled in more. But I still keep an open mind.

YEs I think I have always been introspective and interested in life. To be trusting is essential to a happy life but it is the judgement of who your trust that is the critical and hard bit as I am sure you know.

Sorry to hear you have experienced heaven and hell, neither is preferable to a good life.

I think what I've experienced is typical of most beings on Earth....I can't imagine never feeling the bliss of many things that are blissful, although temporary pleasures....also the pain of the hellish things experienced are temporary. I can't imagine a good life without feeling blissful. This, fortunately, is more prevalent than the hellish states I experience.

Unless it is the bliss of the infinite, it strikes me that more heaven = more hell.

atoms into other things as little is lost on the planet. Therefore I morph into rocks, soil and even other living forms. Re-birth as the Buddhists believe is a worm to catch a weasel.

Yes that too [morphing/atoms] one can logically see that.
But there is also the practice of phowa [transferring ones consciousness into another body], that is practiced by some Buddhists.
I don't suspect those that claim this can be done, are lying.
I have faith, more than skeptical inclinations, regarding Buddhism [Theravada, Mahayana & Vajrayana ].

Faith is very powerful and I enjoy people who live like that, unfortunately it is not me as I am a materialist.

Faith :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Buddhism

[Cahoot]

Faith is very powerful and I enjoy people who live like that, unfortunately it is not me as I am a materialist.

Really. I take the faithful with a grain of salt. The strident faithful, two grains.

*

“Man has throughout the ages been seeking something beyond himself, beyond material welfare - something we call truth or God or reality, a timeless state - something that cannot be disturbed by circumstances, by thought or by human corruption.

“Man has always asked the question: what is it all about? Has life any meaning at all? He sees the enormous confusion of life, the brutalities, the revolt, the wars, the endless divisions of religion, ideology and nationality, and with a sense of deep abiding frustration he asks, what is one to do, what is this thing we call living, is there anything beyond it?

“And not finding this nameless thing of a thousand names which he has always sought, he has cultivated faith - faith in a saviour or an ideal - and faith invariably breeds violence.”

- Jiddu Krishnamurti

[Kunga]

Yes..Krishnamurti had a problem with being faithful....

[Cahoot]

Case in point.

[Leyla Shen]

Being the center, unmoving and balanced, is also bliss.

Oh, you mean an inherently existing self!

First cause is actually speculative inference based on memory and logic. Awareness is, all else is inference, thus awareness precedes first cause.

And how does the memory, logic and resulting speculative inference "first cause" differ from the memory, logic and resulting speculative inference "awareness is"?

[Dennis Mahar]

Ardy,

Faith is very powerful and I enjoy people who live like that, unfortunately it is not me as I am a materialist.

That's a pretty cool statement on the surface.
It identifies a pair of polarities, sets them apart and deals with them diplomatically.
Feathers don't get ruffled.
You're in your corner and I in mine.

The thing is they are conceptual designations dependent on each other and as such lack true existence,
they exist in language only.
subscibed to, like signing up for a subscription to Foxtel and entering contractual obligations.

[Cahoot]

Being the center, unmoving and balanced, is also bliss.

Oh, you mean an inherently existing self!

First cause is actually speculative inference based on memory and logic. Awareness is, all else is inference, thus awareness precedes first cause.

And how does the memory, logic and resulting speculative inference "first cause" differ from the memory, logic and resulting speculative inference "awareness is"?

Awareness is not inference. Awareness of, is.

Inference is thought. Thought is movement.

Spin the top, cha cha cha.

[ardy]

Ardy,

Faith is very powerful and I enjoy people who live like that, unfortunately it is not me as I am a materialist.

That's a pretty cool statement on the surface.
It identifies a pair of polarities, sets them apart and deals with them diplomatically.
Feathers don't get ruffled.
You're in your corner and I in mine.

The thing is they are conceptual designations dependent on each other and as such lack true existence,
they exist in language only.
subscibed to, like signing up for a subscription to Foxtel and entering contractual obligations.

Dennis - what you say is absolutely correct BUT it only applies to those who see conceptual nature, many can recognise the dichotomy but cannot live in a world where it does not exist. The whole universe of the mind is fundamentally empty.

[Dennis Mahar]

Good onya Ardy.
Thankyou.

[Leyla Shen]

The Hooter: Being the center, unmoving and balanced, is also bliss.

LS: Oh, you mean an inherently existing self!

The Hooter: First cause is actually speculative inference based on memory and logic. Awareness is, all else is inference, thus awareness precedes first cause.

LS: And how does the memory, logic and resulting speculative inference "first cause" differ from the memory, logic and resulting speculative inference "awareness is"?

Denise: Awareness is not inference. Awareness of, is.

Inference is thought. Thought is movement.

Spin the top, cha cha cha.

Yes. There’s little difference between a pedant and a woman; an empty centre around which life, a flowy flamennco skirt, is nothing but whirl and spin.

[Cahoot]

The logic is sound, your inferences are fluff.

:)

[Leyla Shen]

(:

Darling, in case you haven’t noticed, my stiletto heel’s still firmly planted in your misstep and it feels more like I’m dancing with an overly enthusiastic Quasimodo than soaring through the heavens with an eagle!

So, before you make the obligatory dive into my bra to whip out its compensatory stuffing for your whirl and dip finale, tell me this: if “awareness is not inference” and “awareness of, is”, and if therefore “‘awareness of’ is thought and thought is movement”, how is it that, notwithstanding I am not the composer or a choreographer, I can be moved by a piece of music or participate in a perfectly executed dance manoeuvre without having had myself a single inferential thought?

[Cahoot]

How is it, you ask? Though in my clumsy and misshapen way I only soar briefly with the majesty of a dislodged brick, I imagine the how-is-it is with grace and ease, Twinkle Toes, much the same way you seamlessly drive about defying disaster only to arrive at your destination with scarcely a memory of the mechanical motions involved.

[Leyla Shen]

And you concede with about much the same grace as you clumsily soar!

What's a bit of "road kill" to men who like their thoughts bloodied!?

[Cahoot]

So that’s what you seek. Concessions and blood.

[Leyla Shen]

No, dear. That's the effect having your unreason questioned has on you.

It started with a clear and simple question, the history of which is there for you to re-examine should you decide to embrace truthfulness rather than ego.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

DV-rant is that less sucking for your ego to fight against? Hope so..

Ego sucks, that's for sure. Or perhaps what sometimes is hastely called ego is just battleground and conquest without having necessarily self-nature? Food for thought.

I came here looking around for someone to discuss my thoughts with. I was on the original Genius forum about 10+ years ago, but it became an ego battleground and I bailed out. This iteration seems much better.

In my view discussions move in and out of consciousness over time. Some periods the nonsense and ravers seem to take over the asylum. It's not so different "out there" you know!

[Cahoot]

No, dear. That's the effect having your unreason questioned has on you.

It started with a clear and simple question, the history of which is there for you to re-examine should you decide to embrace truthfulness rather than ego.

Your simply question is, how it is that you can do something.

The sense and logic of you asking someone else how it is that you can do something has been appropriately addressed.

That someone else does not adhere to the rules of the world that you perceive and imagine speaks to the self-referential loop of your view.

Ego gone wild, to echo the ego.

[Leyla Shen]

Except that you fail to see that if there is anything coherently individual about you whatsoever, what follows from your so-called “non-self-referential”, superior reasoning is that first cause is movement.

The Hooter: First cause is actually speculative inference based on memory and logic. Awareness is, all else is inference, thus awareness precedes first cause.

LS: And how does the memory, logic and resulting speculative inference "first cause" differ from the memory, logic and resulting speculative inference "awareness is"?

Denise: Awareness is not inference. Awareness of, is.

Inference is thought. Thought is movement.

And, you know, "my self-referential loop" tells me that if you were trying to say anything at all, that wasn't it.

Cha-cha-cha, ka-ching!

You lose. Get a new racket.

Try again.

[Cahoot]

Well, obviously you’re just being ignorant.

A bit of an ego display.

Carry on.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Awareness is not inference. Awareness of, is. Inference is thought. Thought is movement.

And, you know, "my self-referential loop" tells me that if you were trying to say anything at all, that wasn't it.

Thought is movement. Death is rigor mortis...

[Cahoot]

Thought is movement.

Movement is change.

Awareness is neither of these.

Awareness of movement, and awareness of change, is inference.