Are YOU Enlightened ?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Urizen
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Urizen »

Dennis Mahar wrote:everything is void of inherent existence.
ineffable silence.
That is true, but the word existence is of ambiguous meaning. A lot of confusion would be avoided by making a clear distinction between reality and existence. Existence pertains to space and time. Reality pertains to timeless and immaterial Truth.* Existence is not real, and the Real does not exist. But existence manifests the Real, God participates in the illusion; and insofar as we see the Real in the existent--"infinity in a grain of sand"--we may regard existence as 'relatively Real'. The dualism of Reality and existence, of the Absolute and manifestation, is inescapable, but at the same time it is transcended. For in the final analysis, only the Absolute is real, while existence is merely apparent. That which seems to be other than the Real, exists only within the mind of God.

[* To elaborate: Because Reality is hierarchical rather than uniform, it may be divided into four levels or degrees: Beyond-Being (Dionysius), Pure Being, Intellect (Plotinus), and the Archetypes. Or, if you prefer, the Absolute, God, Spirit, and the Divine Names, respectively. These four levels constitute the Real; everything below this is existence.]
you keep disclosing causes/conditions.
Inevitably. Dualism entails causation. Causation is not real. For it exists.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

We have to declare situatedness and a cognitive possibility (human nature) OK?

Cogniting things having a regular pattern displaying characteristics. properties, functions is a valid cognition.
This then forms a categorical predicate calculus enabling science.
Survival possibilities.
Makes the notion of a material Universe plausable.

How to realise Spiritual Universe?
That dialectic.

It's straightforward, no need for mysticism, poetry, excessive emotion and all that crap.
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Urizen
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Urizen »

Dennis Mahar wrote:We have to declare situatedness and a cognitive possibility (human nature) OK?
Cogniting things having a regular pattern displaying characteristics. properties, functions is a valid cognition.
This then forms a categorical predicate calculus enabling science.
Survival possibilities.
Makes the notion of a material Universe plausable.
In other words, the faculty of cognition makes the material universe appears plausible to humans. What is the relevance of this observation? Why veil it in such ambiguous language?
How to realise Spiritual Universe?
Grace.
no need for mysticism, poetry, excessive emotion
The truth is intellective, not emotional. Knowledge is direct insight, not subjective experience. Truth has here been expressed in metaphysical language, not poetry. If a poetic phrase has been thrown into the mix, it is only to add colour to a metaphysical statement. It is incidental. But poetic symbolism is by no means an inferior vehicle for the conveyance of truth; like metaphysics, it can, in its own way, act as a support for the actualisation of intuition and thus awaken the individual to a remembrance of the Transcendent.
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

2 cognitions are required. 2 truths.
conventional mode and ultimate mode.
there is no point denying the functionality of phenomena (Universe).

Firstly,
consciousness can talk about the functionality and emptiness of phenomena as subject to object.

at a watershed moment,
subject/object merges and is realised as dependent arisings,
like water on water.

this cognition is nonconceptual, meaning it is inexpressible.

The Tao cannot be named.
It has no characteristics, properties, functions as it is not a thing.
Not finite.
Infinite.

Many try to circle the wagons around it to no avail.
Many experience the majesty of it and report on it.
By that, the evidence of many, is the cognition deemed a valid cognition.
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Urizen
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Urizen »

Dennis Mahar wrote:2 cognitions are required. 2 truths.
conventional mode and ultimate mode.
The 'Conventional Mode' and 'Ultimate Mode' seem to recall the distinction between Reason and Intelligence. If the 'Conventional Mode' should correspond to Reason, and the 'Ultimate Mode' to Intelligence, then a sound distinction is drawn. Full agreement, however, would depend upon the meaning assigned to the word Cognition, which ordinarily refers to Reason and/or Sensorial Perception. For both the 'Conventional Mode' and the 'Ultimate Mode' are described as forms of Cognition, which is true of Reason but not Intelligence. Intelligence is superior to both Reason and Sensorial Perception; for it is not only infallible, but pertains to a higher order of Knowledge than any faculty of the Psyche.

+Sense, Reason, and Intelligence constitute the "eyes of the soul". Intelligence corresponds to the "Third Eye", i.e. gnosis and nondual awareness. Reason proceeds indirectly from man to God through the medium of language and logic; Intelligence, directly from God to man. Reason of the Psyche; Intelligence, of the Pneuma or Spirit. To Sense and Reason, only the psychophysical world is directly accessible; Intelligence knows Beyond-Being (Godhead), Pure Being (God), the Intellect (Holy Ghost), the Archetypal (Archangelic). When Reason, divorced from Intelligence, gathers its data from Sensorial Perception alone, it reasons from insufficient premises, and draws erroneous conclusions about the nature of reality.
there is no point denying the functionality of phenomena (Universe).
True. The is worth emphasising.
Firstly, consciousness can talk about the functionality and emptiness of phenomena as subject to object.
True. The universe is an illusion in relation to the Absolute, but not in relation to an individual consciousness.
this cognition is nonconceptual, meaning it is inexpressible.
It is not a cognition, unless the word be given a broader meaning than the usual. It the vision of the pure Intellect reflected upon itself. It is not an experience, but infallible Knowledge. Infallible, by reason of the identity of Knower and known in this mode of perception. It is nonconcepual, but so long as concepts be distinguished from their referrents, pure Intellection can be conceptually integrated. On this side, Visionary assimilation came before Conceptual assimilation; both were preceded by Knowledge. But whether Vision or Concept, it is all but Symbol: so long as the Symbol be oriented to the Nameless, it is in no wise a barrier to Knowledge; on the contrary, the Symbol acts as a support for the actualisation of pure Intellection.
Last edited by Urizen on Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

What are you protecting like a celebration?
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Urizen
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Urizen »

Dennis Mahar wrote:What are you protecting like a celebration?
Enjoy this moment of infinite, eternal life. It is a free gift. We aren't so crass as to give humanity just here-below sensorial experience. Our gift is proportionate to the human soul: eternal life and heavenly bliss. In the present moment. Take it or leave it.
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Enjoy this moment of infinite, eternal life. It is a free gift. We aren't so crass as to give humanity just here-below sensorial experience. Our gift is proportionate to the human soul: eternal life and heavenly bliss. In the present moment. Take it or leave it.
So it's a possibility (take it or leave it) for time and place (here and now).
There's a condition 'free gift'.
We aren't so crass as to give humanity just here-below sensorial experience
What does that mean?
A caveat?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

To make Schuon your hero is a case of participatory resoluteness.
following footsteps.
correct?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

All stuff rises and dissolves in primordial Being.
In order to do religion one must take up positions several steps from....
Some of the moods of religion are beseeching favours from, scare-mongering, violence between religions.
unnecessary.
Circus act.
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Urizen
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Urizen »

Dennis Mahar wrote: So it's a possibility (take it or leave it) for time and place (here and now).
There's a condition 'free gift'.
Knowledge is likened to a gift in order to emphasise human passivity in relation to the Divine.
What does that mean?
A caveat?
The Void is transcendent in relation to the illusion of material existence. The Real is transcendent in relation to the illusion of the Void. Many have seen the Void, and mistake it for the Absolute: it is actually just the emptiness of the illusion itself.

Idolatry is the absolutisation of that which is less than the Absolute. To equate the Void with the Absolute, is the purest idolatry; not idolatry of particular illusions, but of illusion itself.
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Hooray!
Thankyou.
what you've said there is:
form is empty
empty is empty

Spirit in all things.
relieving the stress of samsara.
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Urizen
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Urizen »

Dennis Mahar wrote:To make Schuon your hero is a case of participatory resoluteness.
following footsteps.
correct?
Knowledge is something one is born with. To follow is to move towards that which is other than oneself. The truth is known from within. If you are not yourself, then imitate someone who is; the Truth in Jesus Christ is the same as that within you.
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

participatory resoluteness

that's all you're saying there.

formula.
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Tor__Hershman
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Tor__Hershman »

Yes.
Ataraxia
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Ataraxia »

Unidian wrote:This is a place where people throw out words and concepts and see how they fly. A testing ground for philosophical bombs.

Yeah. It definitely needs more beer and strippers. Or something.
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Kunga
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Kunga »

Poor baby....mama booboo da la mamu ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8krq5V1C03I
Gregory
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Gregory »

I believe that I've become *more* enlightened as time goes on. Unfortunately, the idea of enlightenment in modern day is seen as some form of certification, rather than a journey of varying degrees similar to the idea of gaining intellectual insight. One cannot fulfill complete knowledge of the world and its participants, but rather they are limited to the satisfaction of what they believe to be their intellectual curiosity.
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Kunga
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Kunga »

There are, strictly speaking,
no enlightened people,
there is only enlightened activity.

~ Shunryu Suzuki ~
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Show me action and I'll show you person.
Show my person and I'll show you action.

When there's no person, there's no activity.
When there's no doing, there's no person.
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Kunga
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Kunga »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Show me action and I'll show you person.
Show my person and I'll show you action.

When there's no person, there's no activity.
When there's no doing, there's no person.
Nothing inherently exists.
The person, from an Enlightened point of view, does not exist.
Enlightened activity is what nobody does.

When you see yourself as somebody, there is ego activity.
When you are a Buddha, you act spontaneously.

When ego-based actions occur it is with effort.
When egoless actions occur it is effortless.



"There are, strictly speaking,
no enlightened people,
there is only enlightened activity."


So selfless actions are the activity of the enlightened ,
and the enlightened, act without a self.
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Kunga
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Kunga »

Radical Emptiness

To the extent that the fire of truth wipes out all fixated points of view, it wipes out inner contradictions as well, and we begin to move in a whole different way. The Way is the flow that comes from a place of non-contradiction—not from good and bad. Much less damage tends to be done from that place. Once we have reached the phase where there is no fixed self-concept, we tend to lead a selfless life. The only way to be selfless is to be self less—without a self. No matter what it does, a self isn’t going to be selfless. It can pretend. It can approximate selflessness, but a self is never going to be selfless because there is always an identified personal self at the root of it.


Being selfless isn’t a good, holy, or noble activity. It’s simply that when there is no self, selflessness happens. This selflessness is very different from having a moralistic standpoint. When action is selfless, it tends to do no harm. It tends to be the salvation, the secret alchemy that awakens and removes conflict. It’s a byproduct of not having a self. It just so happens that reality is overflowing with goodness and love.


This is radical emptiness—where everything is arising spontaneously. There is no more need to discriminate with the mind between what seems to be the right thing or the wrong thing to do. In ego-land it’s helpful to have an ego that can discriminate between right and wrong, but at a certain point, that’s not what you are operating by. You are operating by the flow of the Tao, which is a higher order of intelligence. You don’t need to intellectually discriminate anymore because the Tao discriminates without discriminating; it knows without knowing; it moves without moving. There is no sense of being enlightened or unenlightened. Since there is no self, there is nothing to be enlightened or unenlightened.


We can talk about enlightened beings and non-enlightened beings, and conceptually that has a use. But when there is no self, when there is radical emptiness, the whole enlightenment thing is sort of irrelevant because reality has become conscious of itself, which is enlightenment. That’s what is often missed. People believe that enlightenment is an improvement on reality, like becoming a super human being or God-knows-what. But enlightenment is when reality is awake to itself as itself within itself.


© 2006 by Adyashanti.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Kunga wrote:The person, from an Enlightened point of view, does not exist.
What point of view could "Enlightenment" have? Points and views are human. Even when it's personification of some object.
Enlightened activity is what nobody does.
It's fine unless secretly there's still someone hiding in all those activities, piggybacking!
Show me activity and I''ll show you person showing up.
When you see yourself as somebody, there is ego activity.
Only as far as actions and thoughts are disconnected from beings and origination.
Which looks like what you are doing here:
When you are a Buddha, you act spontaneously.
Spontaneous persons do spontaneous things. There's no disconnect. There's no action isolated somewhere, alienated from its origin.
Origination is depending and concentrated around person, livelihood, environment and defies any notion of just being random or uncaused.

So selfless actions are the activity of the enlightened , and the enlightened, act without a self.
It sounds you're just borrowing words. I don't hear your own, no matter how imperfect they might be. But borrowing is no enlightenment, it's a charade. My advice is to reach not for enlightenment (better yet: reject it) but reach for some more authenticity first. Get rid of the ideas of that being an illusion or "nobody is original". It's an excuse not to push further.
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Kunga
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Kunga »

I am amazed how shallow the level of your comprehension Diebert.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Diebert and comprehension is a contradiction in terms.
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