Are YOU Enlightened ?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Kunga
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Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Kunga »

The Enlightened state is a "non-dualist" attainment, thus there can not be an "I'm," nor a "you Enlightened, them not" as there is no longer a you and them (dualist).

http://the-wanderling.com/Recognize.html
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David Quinn
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by David Quinn »

We better inform the Buddha, then.
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jupiviv
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by jupiviv »

Kunga wrote:The Enlightened state is a "non-dualist" attainment, thus there can not be an "I'm," nor a "you Enlightened, them not" as there is no longer a you and them (dualist).

http://the-wanderling.com/Recognize.html

Enlightenment 101 Question Paper.

Time: as long as it takes.

Q1(20 marks):-

There is no longer a "you and them" in enlightenment because it is non-dual, as opposed to there being a "you and them" in delusion, since it is dual.

Identify and briefly explain the logical contradictions, if any, in the above statement.
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Cahoot
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Cahoot »

jupiviv wrote:
Kunga wrote:The Enlightened state is a "non-dualist" attainment, thus there can not be an "I'm," nor a "you Enlightened, them not" as there is no longer a you and them (dualist).

http://the-wanderling.com/Recognize.html

Enlightenment 101 Question Paper.

Time: as long as it takes.

Q1(20 marks):-

There is no longer a "you and them" in enlightenment because it is non-dual, as opposed to there being a "you and them" in delusion, since it is dual.

Identify and briefly explain the logical contradictions, if any, in the above statement.
How the hell can I make myself large if denied the vocabulary to reference the strawmen I make so small?
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Kunga
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Kunga »

David Quinn wrote:We better inform the Buddha, then.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/glg/glg30.htm
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Kunga
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Kunga »

jupiviv wrote:
Kunga wrote:The Enlightened state is a "non-dualist" attainment, thus there can not be an "I'm," nor a "you Enlightened, them not" as there is no longer a you and them (dualist).

http://the-wanderling.com/Recognize.html

Enlightenment 101 Question Paper.

Time: as long as it takes.

Q1(20 marks):-

There is no longer a "you and them" in enlightenment because it is non-dual, as opposed to there being a "you and them" in delusion, since it is dual.

Identify and briefly explain the logical contradictions, if any, in the above statement.

Enlightenment and Delusion are dualistic concepts.
Without delusion there is no Enlightenment, as Enlightenment is contingent to delusion.
So Enlightenment and Delusion are empty of inherent existence.
Thus, there is no Enlightenment or Delusion.

You and them are dualistic concepts.
Without "Them" , there can be no "You" .
You and Them are empty of inherent existence.
Thus, there is no You or Them.
Ztoneburg
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Ztoneburg »

No.

It was confirmed today that "I" was previously, maybe "I" will be again. I'm working on not working on it, and will obviously fail. My hope is that I will fail to fail at work or not working on it.
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Tomas
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Tomas »

Kunga wrote:The Enlightened state is a "non-dualist" attainment, thus there can not be an "I'm," nor a "you Enlightened, them not" as there is no longer a you and them (dualist).

http://the-wanderling.com/Recognize.html
Holy fucking shit that was a long article!

I'll hafta muse on it a bit more and comment later.
Don't run to your death
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Unidian
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Unidian »

This is a place where people throw out words and concepts and see how they fly. A testing ground for philosophical bombs.
I live in a tub.
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ardy
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by ardy »

Isn't the test a poem with a stamp of approval from a genuine enlightened person?

Does anybody want to have crack at an enlightenment poem?

As a starter I remember this line from one such poem.

"today the very ice shoots sparks"

Cant remember any more of it, and my books are in storage.

found it on google.

All's harmony yet everything's separate,
Once confirmed, mastery is yours.
Long have I hovered on the middle way,
But today the very ice shoots sparks.

The translation stated 'flames' but I am sure the one I read stated sparks and I think it sounds better.
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Cahoot
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Cahoot »

Owdy Ardy :)

"today the very ice shoots sparks"

That’s a fine word picture.

Reminds me of when I was a little kid, walking on a sidewalk of fresh white concrete, how the tiny flecks of mica on the surface caught the sunlight, thousands of tiny motionless suns winking and blinking into my eyes and all over.
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ardy
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by ardy »

Cahoot wrote:Owdy Ardy :)

"today the very ice shoots sparks"

That’s a fine word picture.

Reminds me of when I was a little kid, walking on a sidewalk of fresh white concrete, how the tiny flecks of mica on the surface caught the sunlight, thousands of tiny motionless suns winking and blinking into my eyes and all over.
Hi Cahoot - I have experienced that and it is the surprise that takes you to the fine experience. At least in my case it was. See it all the time these days in kitchen benchtops, doesn't have the same surprise as when I first saw it - what a pity that you can't experience these things over and over again?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

ardy wrote: All's harmony yet everything's separate,
Once confirmed, mastery is yours.
Long have I hovered on the middle way,
But today the very ice shoots sparks.

The translation stated 'flames' but I am sure the one I read stated sparks and I think it sounds better.
Flames or fire is obviously better as translation as it captures the opposites in unison. Sparks seem as image here limited to aesthetics and rapture, as spectacle. It reminded me however of something almost unrelated:
  • Some say the world will end in fire,
    Some say in ice.
    From what I’ve tasted of desire
    I hold with those who favor fire.
    But if it had to perish twice,
    I think I know enough of hate
    To say that for destruction ice
    Is also great
    And would suffice.

    -- Robert Frost
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ardy
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by ardy »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
ardy wrote: All's harmony yet everything's separate,
Once confirmed, mastery is yours.
Long have I hovered on the middle way,
But today the very ice shoots sparks.

The translation stated 'flames' but I am sure the one I read stated sparks and I think it sounds better.
Flames or fire is obviously better as translation as it captures the opposites in unison. Sparks seem as image here limited to aesthetics and rapture, as spectacle. It reminded me however of something almost unrelated:
  • Some say the world will end in fire,
    Some say in ice.
    From what I’ve tasted of desire
    I hold with those who favor fire.
    But if it had to perish twice,
    I think I know enough of hate
    To say that for destruction ice
    Is also great
    And would suffice.

    -- Robert Frost
Hi Kanga - "Flames or fire is obviously better as translation as it captures the opposites in unison." Yes I agree but is it good poetry?

I think I liked sparks as it brings to mind my view of instant enlightenment.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

ardy wrote:Yes I agree but is it good poetry? I think I liked sparks as it brings to mind my view of instant enlightenment.
As I said: limited to aesthetics and rapture, as spectacle. This is perhaps why I wouldn't call it poetry at all in some artistic sense. It's poetry in the sense that a lyrical structure provides better rememberance in a culture where there's no written script available much. Or that the sparsity of words prevents getting stuck in their excitement. Zen is deadly, not beauty: it's too easy to miss the boat.
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Cahoot
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Cahoot »

The Frost poem brings to mind another:

Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow

For thine is the Kingdom

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
Life is very long

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow

For Thine is the Kingdom

For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but with a whimper.


-TS Eliot

*

Somewhere, in referencing thought, J. Krishnamurti said that between the idea and action lies the mischief.
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Cahoot
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Cahoot »

It’s not complicated.

Shoveling Snow With Buddha
- Billy Collins


In the usual iconography of the temple or the local Wok
you would never see him doing such a thing,
tossing the dry snow over a mountain
of his bare, round shoulder,
his hair tied in a knot,
a model of concentration.

Sitting is more his speed, if that is the word
for what he does, or does not do.

Even the season is wrong for him.
In all his manifestations, is it not warm or slightly humid?
Is this not implied by his serene expression,
that smile so wide it wraps itself around the waist of the universe?

But here we are, working our way down the driveway,
one shovelful at a time.
We toss the light powder into the clear air.
We feel the cold mist on our faces.
And with every heave we disappear
and become lost to each other
in these sudden clouds of our own making,
these fountain-bursts of snow.

This is so much better than a sermon in church,
I say out loud, but Buddha keeps on shoveling.
This is the true religion, the religion of snow,
and sunlight and winter geese barking in the sky,
I say, but he is too busy to hear me.

He has thrown himself into shoveling snow
as if it were the purpose of existence,
as if the sign of a perfect life were a clear driveway
you could back the car down easily
and drive off into the vanities of the world
with a broken heater fan and a song on the radio.

All morning long we work side by side,
me with my commentary
and he inside his generous pocket of silence,
until the hour is nearly noon
and the snow is piled high all around us;
then, I hear him speak.

After this, he asks,
can we go inside and play cards?
Certainly, I reply, and I will heat some milk
and bring cups of hot chocolate to the table
while you shuffle the deck.
and our boots stand dripping by the door.

Aaah, says the Buddha, lifting his eyes
and leaning for a moment on his shovel
before he drives the thin blade again
deep into the glittering white snow.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Pam Seeback »

ardy: Hi Cahoot - I have experienced that and it is the surprise that takes you to the fine experience. At least in my case it was. See it all the time these days in kitchen benchtops, doesn't have the same surprise as when I first saw it - what a pity that you can't experience these things over and over again?
ardy, is it not true that the experience was a nothingness until you thought about why it caught your attention? And what is stopping you from thinking about it whenever you want? You could paint "walking on a sidewalk of fresh white concrete, the tiny flecks of mica on the surface catching the sunlight, thousands of tiny motionless suns winking and blinking into your eyes and all over" or you could write a poem about it, or make a video about it, or explore its phenomena scientifically. The sparks on the ice is your void, your nothingness until you fill it with you, your somethingness.
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ardy
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by ardy »

movingalways wrote: ardy, is it not true that the experience was a nothingness until you thought about why it caught your attention? And what is stopping you from thinking about it whenever you want? You could paint "walking on a sidewalk of fresh white concrete, the tiny flecks of mica on the surface catching the sunlight, thousands of tiny motionless suns winking and blinking into your eyes and all over" or you could write a poem about it, or make a video about it, or explore its phenomena scientifically. The sparks on the ice is your void, your nothingness until you fill it with you, your somethingness.
Yes lovely stuff and reminds me that the place to start is anywhere? Step into the stream and get taken away. I have written poems about such and written some stuff about it. NOthing special mind you but hell! you asked for it [sort of].

The Grand Debate


With all the glory of nature, god, animals and silence around you. Yet you persist in your blinkered focus of stupidity. Whilst all around you are playing out the grand game with great joy.

Silence whispers to nature "why is he doing lots of nothing"

Nature grunts "at his advanced age he is still young"

"How much longer before he plays with US!" ask the animals.

"So long as he holds on too tight" says god.

"Is he so tight he can't move?" ask the animals.

"So tight he squeaks like one of you!" proclaims nature.

"His squeaks ruin my main game" says silence.

"He doesn’t know there is a game" said god. "The game is played for keeps"

"But what does he get to keep" said nature.

"Nothing important, yet only futile, with the end result = 0"

"Is our song too subtle?" asked silence.

"Too subtle for him to hear us" said the animals.

"Maybe we should clear it" said silence.

"Over my dead body!" said god.

"What about his dead body" asked nature.

"Of no consequence, although he doesn’t realise it" said god. "A last minute case if ever I saw one"

“We still want to play with him" said the animals.

"It's banned until he wakes up and takes off those ridiculous blinkers" said nature.

"Agreed" said god and they all nodded.

Bob Thomas 29th December 2002
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ardy
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by ardy »

Cahoot: Never heard of Billy Collins but like the poem a lot.
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Cahoot
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Cahoot »

Good!

This stanza stands out.

We toss the light powder into the clear air.
We feel the cold mist on our faces.
And with every heave we disappear
and become lost to each other
in these sudden clouds of our own making,
these fountain-bursts of snow.


Blinkers of our own making.
troutman99
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by troutman99 »

of course! :)
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Fox
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Fox »

Are you enlightened-yet?
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Urizen
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Urizen »

Kunga wrote:The Enlightened state is a "non-dualist" attainment, thus there can not be an "I'm," nor a "you Enlightened, them not" as there is no longer a you and them (dualist).
Enlightenment is for eternity. Every possibility has already unfolded itself in the present moment. All knowledge has already been fulfilled. God's will is already done. Whether you are made to know or to be, you have it within yourself to enjoy this moment of infinite, eternal life.

To say 'nondual' is to say 'unlimited' and 'all-comprehensive'. A 'nondualistic' 'state' would be limited by the fact that it is this 'state' as opposed to that 'state'; which is duality. Nondualism has no limitations, including the apparent limitation of being 'nondual' as opposed to 'dual'. It is 'dual' and 'nondual' at the same time, and also neither, and therefore all three at once. Rather than nullifying or excluding duality, the unlimited nature of nondualism entails duality; for the exclusion of duality would be a limitation of the Absolute and, contradictorily, a form of duality; while its inclusion within the Absolute would be only an apparent limitation. *

Being unlimited, nondualism is not an experience or 'state' capable of being 'attained' by a finite being. It is knowledge that proceeds directly from God to man, not the other way round.

The idea that Enlightenment is the nullification of finite and multiple beings is a demonic counterfeit of Enlightenment promoted by Counter-Initiatory forces. In these latter times of the Kali Yuga, the spiritual seeker must be on his guard against such distortions of Advaita Vedanta, Buddhism, and other sacred traditions.

(*A more detailed explanation: the Absolute, free from all limitations, embraces everything possible, including the possibility of its own limitation; this is duality. In other words, as required by its lack of any limitation, the Absolute limits itself by creating something apparently 'other' than itself. Yet since the Absolute alone is absolutely real, any limitation of the Absolute is only apparent. To abolish duality would be to impose a limitation on the Absolute, which would entail the contradiction of creating a new duality. This leads to the conclusion: nonduality is the transcendence, not the nullification of duality. Transcendence elevates and expands into the Absolute; it does not extinguish or nullify relativity. Duality is not lost but subsumed within a greater unity. Reality is not an undifferentiated void, but a hierarchy descending by degrees from the Real to the less real.)
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Re: Are YOU Enlightened ?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

everything is void of inherent existence.
ineffable silence.

you keep disclosing causes/conditions.
if it is dependent it doesn't really exist.
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