Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

[Ztoneburg]

If the fact that it was possible to exit this state (involuntarily) means that it was not the "real deal" according to your definition that is absolutely fine.

The question isn't whether it was real but what you think made it an enlightened experience. The way you describe it makes it seem like a primarily emotional affair with not much rational thought/philosophy going on.

The way I and a few others on this board define it, enlightenment is more about applying a flawless understanding of reality to every nook and cranny of our lives than about going through what are commonly labelled as altered/"spiritual" experiences.

I should probably have put more effort into explaining the experience, since this seems to be of importance to you and others. Perhaps I was selfish or lazy in not doing so. Maybe I could describe it in a way that convinced you that it was fitting whatever qualities you put into the word “enlightment”, maybe not. How would you like to me put it into words?

It had an incredibly intensive rational thought/philosophy part, that was what "triggered" it, and something that persisted throughout although also containing intensive states of emotions as well. I guess a crude way of describing it would be as finally (and unexpectedly) reaching an intellectual orgasm after 37 years of intellectual sexual intercourse. (Yes, imagine the blue balls).

At the time I had no idea what had happened because it didn't fit into my previous world view. But through research I've come to realize that it fits exactly with what is described as satori, awakening or enlightenment. I didn't look for it, it just happened. After it ended I went looking for an explanation, and found it. Does that make the sequence of events clearer?

No the 17:th of june was when it ended, not when it started. We were in this state from the 15:th of june. For my wife it ended with bodily death, for me it ended from a combination of unexpected, and I'd say maximum amount of, physical, emotional and psychological trauma. Just wanted to clear that up.

I don't intend to disparage the personal significance that those events might hold for you and you have my condolences for your loss. But the fact that you went through such a tragedy immediately after entering that "state", whatever it was, doesn't make it enlightened.

I am aware that past (memory) comes before future (fantasy) and that neither are real (since there's only now). Of course the end didn't make the state enlightened, just like the final whistle of a football game is not the game.

The only reason I mentioned the end is that if it hadn't ended I wouldn't be here discussing it. There would be no point since I would still be in it. But either way, why is it important to you whether it was “real” or not? I'm just text on a screen to you. I appreciate the condolences and sympathy, but that's not why I am here. And I am in no need of sympathy, I do not consider myself unlucky or unhappy, quite the opposite. I am here because according to the site charter, this is where I am supposed to be.

The personal significance of the events are actually not significant at all. The reason I came here was because I realized the opposite, that they're not personal, they are universal.

[Ztoneburg]

I used to be very cynical, but I think I've somehow lost the knack for it. It just tastes like stale beer or licking an ashtray when I try it nowadays.

:)

Thank you, that was a beautiful way of putting it. You made me understand it more, I'm grateful for that.

I'm moved to tears by your beingness champ.
I think I'll take a bex and lie down.

As a World discloser disclosing World.
First Class.
Hats off to your understanding.

Haha, I don't know how to respond. :)

But I get the feeling I owe you a beer for it.

[Ztoneburg]

Deebs, I think you might be stretching it a bit here. Z seems well adjusted enough

And I was just being conservative in my response just in case there was some truth, who knows. But really, if his first wild bit of satori coincided with such death and destruction, it's not that much of a stretch to advice utter caution. Did he understand his experience and the results? Just coincidences you think?

Bottom line is that the spiritual journey is the hardest thing. If the first brush already coincided with that much trauma and suffering, he needs to understand it won't get much easier. I'm shocked that I agree with Kunga here somewhat but I'm reading here a story, when taken at face value, of someone definitely not ready for anything deeper at all. There's also something trollish about the whole drama display that I won't go into right now as it might be part of the mental condition of the author to interact in that manner, to "relive" it through strangers.

Seriously, you guys are a bit paranoid. I am not complicated at all.

I registered here and posted a bit more than two months ago, when I was still traumatized (yet somewhat functioning). I got the very good advice to find peace and took it. Now I am back, having found peace, and is in essence asking "What's next?".

I'm not a troll and I am not making this stuff up. If you want to I can PM you the official records and newspaper reports, or you can probably find that by yourself if you want. You don't need to try to psychoanalyze me, I already have a person for that, and I have no wish to "relive" some trauma through strangers (I mean really, where are you getting this from?).

I mean shesh, got conspiracy much? How about just play along (ie: assume I am just being direct rather than... I don't know what), or just ignore me. Both seem much more constructive than trying to figure out what sort of dark and secret machinations I am up to.

[Ztoneburg]

Ztoneburg

"To be wronged is nothing, unless you continue to remember it." Confucius

The pain from that bashing was only so bad and only so brief, the rest is in your own hands.

Thanks but I already got that bit two months ago. Funnily enough, I didn't have any trouble getting over the "wronged" part. I guess the whole "feeling like a victim" went away with the knack for cynisism. It won't be missed. ;)

[jupiviv]

It had an incredibly intensive rational thought/philosophy part, that was what "triggered" it

That's the part I'd like you to explain.

After it ended I went looking for an explanation, and found it.

What is the explanation you're referring to here?

I am aware that past (memory) comes before future (fantasy) and that neither are real (since there's only now).

If "now" means the totality of all things, then the past and the future are unreal if they are posited separately from it. But past, present and future are divisions of time, which is not separate from the totality of all things.

The only reason I mentioned the end is that if it hadn't ended I wouldn't be here discussing it. There would be no point since I would still be in it.

You were in reality when you had that experience, when your wife died, and are in it now. The only thing that could have ended is your experience of reality, but I don't understand why, since you seem to be having experiences right now.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Seriously, you guys are a bit paranoid. I am not complicated at all.

This forum is famous for its amount of diagnosed and undiagnosed instances of schizophrenia, from the founders to the members. And that's where you join right after recovering from very serious trauma and still under guidance from a therapist? Probably still under medication which takes months to build up and build down. It's like trying to win the Olympics after just having lost your legs. O wait...

You sound very crazy to me, no matter if your story is true or not. Your presentation showed me you're definitely not sane, it's all in the details which show no realism in any way. I hope you made it up since at least it would make you a bit more capable.

[Ztoneburg]

Seriously, you guys are a bit paranoid. I am not complicated at all.

This forum is famous for its amount of diagnosed and undiagnosed instances of schizophrenia, from the founders to the members. And that's where you join right after recovering from very serious trauma and still under guidance from a therapist? Probably still under medication which takes months to build up and build down. It's like trying to win the Olympics after just having lost your legs. O wait...

You sound very crazy to me, no matter if your story is true or not. Your presentation showed me you're definitely not sane, it's all in the details which show no realism in any way. I hope you made it up since at least it would make you a bit more capable.

I've read through the forums so I think I've got a grasp on you. You need to put things into boxes with lables and sort them in your cabinet. And you get upset when things, concepts or people don't fit into your boxes. When you get upset about that you apply your intellect like a hammer, trying to force the star-shaped thingy into the square hole.

You seem very intelligent, but you're not what I am looking for. I suggest you just sort me under "crazy" and ignore me. That way we don't have to get in each others way and can happily skip down whatever path we personally chose.

[Ztoneburg]

It had an incredibly intensive rational thought/philosophy part, that was what "triggered" it

That's the part I'd like you to explain.

How and why?

After it ended I went looking for an explanation, and found it.

What is the explanation you're referring to here?

Satori.

I am aware that past (memory) comes before future (fantasy) and that neither are real (since there's only now).

If "now" means the totality of all things, then the past and the future are unreal if they are posited separately from it. But past, present and future are divisions of time, which is not separate from the totality of all things.

Ok. My intention was only to clarify that the end of the event was not what made the event into the event.

The only reason I mentioned the end is that if it hadn't ended I wouldn't be here discussing it. There would be no point since I would still be in it.

You were in reality when you had that experience, when your wife died, and are in it now. The only thing that could have ended is your experience of reality, but I don't understand why, since you seem to be having experiences right now.

What changed was how I experience reality. Before the event I was a 14” black and white tv-set. During it I was a 3D holographic surround sound multimedia complex, now I'm a flat screen color TV who seems to be slowly evolving back to the multimedia complex state. I'm guessing I will get back to where I was, but am here looking for input. Both on how to handle the process, and to be better prepared for it. If it doesn't happen, I'm happy to have upgraded from the old black and white TV set anyway. As I said, I am content and happy, but having had a taste of what life truly can be, I wouldn't mind experiencing it again.

The first time I got there was by in effect creating a “super organism” with my wife, by creating a positive feedback loop of love and communication. So I know that is one way to do it. But since others seem able to achieve it without a partner, I figure I should try that, since finding my wife was a magnificent fluke and I don't expect it to happen again.

Are you in a state of satori?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

This forum is famous for its amount of diagnosed and undiagnosed instances of schizophrenia, from the founders to the members.

lol. Very true. I don't think anyone can top that numbers guy tho, "326=nathaniel is jesus christ", that was impressive, and I've only been here a year, there has probably been even worse.

I wouldn't mind experiencing it again.

Got to get back to that state! Life's dreary now when it's not in sony satori HD.

[jupiviv]

It had an incredibly intensive rational thought/philosophy part, that was what "triggered" it

That's the part I'd like you to explain.

How and why?

Because without an explanation of your reasoning I can't tell if it is correct. And if you really need me to tell you *how* to explain your reasoning, then you should read some books on logic and philosophy.

After it ended I went looking for an explanation, and found it.

What is the explanation you're referring to here?

Satori.

What is satori? Is it a joyful experience, or is it a process of consistent thought about a given issue? If it is both, then to what extent is it either?

What changed was how I experience reality.

You can't change how you experience reality, since reality itself never changes.

What you can change however is how consistently you experience reality. Would you say you spend more time experiencing reality now than at the moment when you had that marvellous experience?

Before the event I was a 14” black and white tv-set. During it I was a 3D holographic surround sound multimedia complex, now I'm a flat screen color TV who seems to be slowly evolving back to the multimedia complex state.

I'm terrible at poetry, so you have to explain what you mean by all those metaphors.

The first time I got there was by in effect creating a “super organism” with my wife, by creating a positive feedback loop of love and communication. So I know that is one way to do it. But since others seem able to achieve it without a partner, I figure I should try that, since finding my wife was a magnificent fluke and I don't expect it to happen again.

OK, I have to say I don't buy the idea that love and communication makes you more aware of reality. In fact, if my own observations, and those of other men whom I respect are anything to go by, those kinds of things destroy our awareness of reality.

Are you in a state of satori?

Depends on what you mean by it. If you mean whether I am in a state of emotional bliss and contentment, then no.

[Ztoneburg]

It had an incredibly intensive rational thought/philosophy part, that was what "triggered" it

That's the part I'd like you to explain.

How and why?

Because without an explanation of your reasoning I can't tell if it is correct. And if you really need me to tell you *how* to explain your reasoning, then you should read some books on logic and philosophy.

And what do I get out of it? the "jupiviv" stamp of approval for spiritual experiences? I prefer not jumping through hoops unless the hoops are fun or worth jumping through.

After it ended I went looking for an explanation, and found it.

What is the explanation you're referring to here?
Satori.

What is satori? Is it a joyful experience, or is it a process of consistent thought about a given issue? If it is both, then to what extent is it either?

I suggest you experience it for yourself. I could try to describe what it is like to make love, but that would be a poor substitute for the experience.

What changed was how I experience reality.

You can't change how you experience reality, since reality itself never changes.

What you can change however is how consistently you experience reality. Would you say you spend more time experiencing reality now than at the moment when you had that marvellous experience?

I don't agree with your premise. If I poke my eyes out, it will change how I experience reality. If I am awakened, it will change how I experience reality.

Before the event I was a 14” black and white tv-set. During it I was a 3D holographic surround sound multimedia complex, now I'm a flat screen color TV who seems to be slowly evolving back to the multimedia complex state.

I'm terrible at poetry, so you have to explain what you mean by all those metaphors.

I don't have to do anything and in this case it would seem especially pointless. I've tried to explain, but you have not tried to understand. So I chose to not explain any further.

The first time I got there was by in effect creating a “super organism” with my wife, by creating a positive feedback loop of love and communication. So I know that is one way to do it. But since others seem able to achieve it without a partner, I figure I should try that, since finding my wife was a magnificent fluke and I don't expect it to happen again.

OK, I have to say I don't buy the idea that love and communication makes you more aware of reality. In fact, if my own observations, and those of other men whom I respect are anything to go by, those kinds of things destroy our awareness of reality.

I'm not interested in selling it, so you can't buy it. Whether you believe it or not also has no effect on me, just as you don't have to believe that I own a pair of pants in order for me to know that I do.

Are you in a state of satori?

Depends on what you mean by it. If you mean whether I am in a state of emotional bliss and contentment, then no.

Then you are not what I am looking for.

[Dennis Mahar]

The first time I got there was by in effect creating a “super organism” with my wife, by creating a positive feedback loop of love and communication. So I know that is one way to do it. But since others seem able to achieve it without a partner, I figure I should try that, since finding my wife was a magnificent fluke and I don't expect it to happen again.

What happened was precisely what the Buddha taught.
Dependent arising.

This ceases,that ceases,
This arises, that arises.

The noble8 is all about speech, thought, action.
Pay attention and be awake.
Create, create, create.
World disclosed as Spiritual.

ordinary, everyday mind transformed.


Nirvana and samsara right here, right now, not different Worlds.
just a radical shift in perception.

There are no justifiers for a trial by a jury of peers and yet there is grace under pressure in that kind of mean-spirited scrutiny.
It is what it is and isn't what it isn't.

Causality is no longer 'out there' as a concept,
it is ready-at-hand for Being-in-World,
It is lived.
Radiant mind.
Wonderful World.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I've read through the forums so I think I've got a grasp on you. You need to put things into boxes with lables and sort them in your cabinet.

LOL. Your inability to self-reflect captured in two sentences!

[Dennis Mahar]

LOL. Your inability to self-reflect captured in two sentences!

It's that kind of mud from which the Lotus emerges triumphant.
as Nietzsche indicated, 'ceaselessly overcoming' the shit thrown by the herd mentality.
This ceases, that ceases,
This arises, that arises.

[Ztoneburg]

The first time I got there was by in effect creating a “super organism” with my wife, by creating a positive feedback loop of love and communication. So I know that is one way to do it. But since others seem able to achieve it without a partner, I figure I should try that, since finding my wife was a magnificent fluke and I don't expect it to happen again.

What happened was precisely what the Buddha taught.
Dependent arising.

This ceases,that ceases,
This arises, that arises.

The noble8 is all about speech, thought, action.
Pay attention and be awake.
Create, create, create.
World disclosed as Spiritual.

ordinary, everyday mind transformed.


Nirvana and samsara right here, right now, not different Worlds.
just a radical shift in perception.

There are no justifiers for a trial by a jury of peers and yet there is grace under pressure in that kind of mean-spirited scrutiny.
It is what it is and isn't what it isn't.

Causality is no longer 'out there' as a concept,
it is ready-at-hand for Being-in-World,
It is lived.
Radiant mind.
Wonderful World.

You are what I am looking for. Thank you.

[Ztoneburg]

I've read through the forums so I think I've got a grasp on you. You need to put things into boxes with lables and sort them in your cabinet.

LOL. Your inability to self-reflect captured in two sentences!

Ï'm sorry to have disappointed you. I hope we can part as friends and that you will accept my apology.

[jupiviv]

I suggest you experience it for yourself. I could try to describe what it is like to make love, but that would be a poor substitute for the experience.

But I can't experience it for myself if you don't tell me what it is!

I don't agree with your premise. If I poke my eyes out, it will change how I experience reality. If I am awakened, it will change how I experience reality.

You would be experiencing different *aspects* of reality, but reality itself wouldn't change no matter what you experience, or if you don't experience anything at all.

I'm not interested in selling it, so you can't buy it. Whether you believe it or not also has no effect on me, just as you don't have to believe that I own a pair of pants in order for me to know that I do.

So your idea of guidance and/or discussion is unconditional agreement with everything you say?

[Leyla Shen]

So your idea of guidance from us is us agreeing with everything you say?

No. You have to agree with everything Dennis says.

Surprise!

[jupiviv]

This ceases,that ceases,
This arises, that arises.

So according to you, the Buddha had the philosophical expertise of a tween.

[Ztoneburg]

I suggest you experience it for yourself. I could try to describe what it is like to make love, but that would be a poor substitute for the experience.

But I can't experience it for myself if you don't tell me what it is!

I'm sorry but I can't help you. If I knew how to, I would do everything I could to help you or anyone. But how can I when I can't help myself?

I have described how I got there, but that road may not work for you and depends on you finding someone willing to make the journey with you.

I don't agree with your premise. If I poke my eyes out, it will change how I experience reality. If I am awakened, it will change how I experience reality.

You would be experiencing different *aspects* of reality, but reality itself wouldn't change no matter what you experience, or if you don't experience anything at all.

I don't think I claimed that reality changed, only my ability to experience it. If I did, I miss-spoke.

I'm not interested in selling it, so you can't buy it. Whether you believe it or not also has no effect on me, just as you don't have to believe that I own a pair of pants in order for me to know that I do.

So your idea of guidance and/or discussion is unconditional agreement with everything you say?

No, that seems to be your idea of what my idea of guidance is. Or rather, it seems to be an attempt to provoke a reaction. I simply do not find it fruitful to continue on this path, or jumping through your hoops. I'm sorry if that frustrates you, but you really shouldn't let something like that get to you. I simply suggest you focus on your satori (if you want) and I focus on mine. I wish you the best of luck. And I promise that if I find myself being in a position to help you, I will let you know and make myself available.

[Ztoneburg]

So your idea of guidance from us is us agreeing with everything you say?

No. You have to agree with everything Dennis says.

Surprise!

Actually, I spent a few hours reading threads on this forum and found several people who I am very interested in listening to. Dennis is one of them, the others are Pye, Being1 and Movingalways.

I also found a lot of people who I deemed pointless to engage in discussion. You were of course on that list. I say that not in an effort to put you down, but rather the opposite, because I think you will experience pleasure from me saying it. It feels good doesn't it? I like you because you're sick like that, I find it attractive in women. ;)

[Diebert van Rhijn]

The “process” was my relationship with my wife, which was of the unconventional type. We were both very much into interpersonal communication, coaching, personal growth etc and more or less treated ourselves as an experiment. We didn't get married out of romantic love, but out of intellectual love and compatibility, we assumed the romantic bit would follow, and it did. Basically we were just continually focusing on communicating with each other and creating positive feedback loops, constantly analyzing and improving how we interacted towards each other in a completely altruistic and trusting relationship.

This is the part where anyone with over twelve can determine we're dealing with a certified insane person or just a bad story teller. The rest does not matter anymore at this point. Do we really have to open the doors wide now for the lunatics and trolls who are just stirring up shit?

[Ztoneburg]

The “process” was my relationship with my wife, which was of the unconventional type. We were both very much into interpersonal communication, coaching, personal growth etc and more or less treated ourselves as an experiment. We didn't get married out of romantic love, but out of intellectual love and compatibility, we assumed the romantic bit would follow, and it did. Basically we were just continually focusing on communicating with each other and creating positive feedback loops, constantly analyzing and improving how we interacted towards each other in a completely altruistic and trusting relationship.

This is the part where anyone with over twelve can determine we're dealing with a certified insane person or just a bad story teller. The rest does not matter anymore at this point. Do we really have to open the doors wide now for the lunatics and trolls who are just stirring up shit?

Wow. You've gone from calling me crazy, schizophrenic a liar and a troll to making me into a threat to the very fabric of this site. And finish it off by claiming that *I* am the one stirring up shit. And this while I've been doing my best to disentangle myself from you. Sir, you are truly impressive. I salute you.

[jupiviv]

I have described how I got there, but that road may not work for you and depends on you finding someone willing to make the journey with you.

You haven't described how you got there. All you've done is proclaim that "there" is a great place to have gotten to, without providing any reasons why. You shouldn't expect people to believe things without proof.

I don't think I claimed that reality changed, only my ability to experience it. If I did, I miss-spoke.

If you experience anything whatsoever, at any point of time, in any situation, you are experiencing reality in its full majesty. There are no grades to the ability to experience reality. You are either able to experience it or not. So why do you think you experienced reality more intensely by being a super-organism with your wife or during that special experience, than when you suffered the trauma, or right now?

Look, I know you came here looking for guidance, but the kind of guidance we give out here isn't going to make you feel fulfilled, purposeful etc., so it's not the kind people, especially those in your predicament, usually want. It is pretty clear you want trifle, but all we have on the menu are fistfuls of unchewable nails.

[Robert]

Actually, I spent a few hours reading threads on this forum and found several people who I am very interested in listening to. Dennis is one of them, the others are Pye, Being1 and Movingalways.

Diebert is right. You're not sane.