Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Ztoneburg
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Ztoneburg »

ComfortablyNumb wrote: I question what you were doing 3 days prior that caused this "enlightenment" to occur. How did it happen? I dont really believe in this spontaneous enlightment ive heard of.
It wasn't spontaneous in the way I understand the word, but rather the effect of some very specific processes. It just wasn't intended, since we had no idea about this being possible. In hindsight I've come to understand how it happened and why it makes sense, and I'm still exploring this because I find it very interesting.
ComfortablyNumb wrote: If anything id think your more likely to become enlightened after this tragedy.
I can't really compare it to something, but that may well be true. I'm not sure traumas in general are conducive to enlightenment, I'm sure they can be very counter productive, my suspicion is that it's more about how you handle it and your attitude towards it. I can say for sure that the enlightenment helped with the trauma, and hopefully the trauma is reciprocating. ;)
ComfortablyNumb wrote: Like eckart toile claims "the meaning of life is to die before you die and live again" something like that
I'm not sure I'd like to stick a “meaning” on life (hard to back that up) but as a strategy for living I think he is spot on. Once you lose the fear and anxiety that is connected to death, life becomes so much easier and more fulfilling. You don't have to take it so seriously.
ComfortablyNumb wrote: I have also suffered my whole life through depression. And the past 2 years have had the only thing I cared about ripped away from me. I know I will defenetely become more "enlightened" than I was before if I ever come out of this. Or I will die in the process.
I'm going out on a limb here but when you say “come out of this” I get the impression that you want to climb out of the hole the same way you came in. Which will obviously only get you back to where you started.

One of the things that helped me the most was realizing that suicide is not something to be avoided or talked out of, but something to accept and incorporate into your life. Consider these two statements:

1. Whether to die or go on living is the most important decision you make, and therefor one you should be making all the time. You need to make an active choice, or you might as well leave and make room for someone else.
2. There are only three ways you can die. Trying to live and failing, trying to die and succeeding, and surprise. For some reason the worst way (trying to live and failing) is the only one acceptable to society.

I keep living by active choice because there are still some fun things I want to do and stuff I want to figure out. Once I get bored I'm going to try the alternative. This way my life will probably be short and intense rather than long and boring, and I won't have to worry about saving for retirement. Just the way I like it.

When you're depressed people will try to make you less depressed. An option to that would be to come out on the other side. I mean fuck it, if life is really so grim, why not end it? Just stay alive because it would cause others a hassle not doing so? Fuck that. Just set a date for next year when you're going to kill yourself and make the preparations. Then you have one year to live it up. You can do whatever you want and don't have to worry about any consequences (unless you want to). Irresponsible? Hell yes. So what? The option is to mope around as a zombie waiting for the body to give up just to not upset anyone. That seems like a waste of a life.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Please ComfortablyNumb, do not listen to the undoubtedly insane man above.

He is supporting the option of suicide, and is not right-minded.
Ztoneburg
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Ztoneburg »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Please ComfortablyNumb, do not listen to the undoubtedly insane man above.

He is supporting the option of suicide, and is not right-minded.
What does "supporting the option of suicide" mean? And what is your correct and sane opinion on the issue?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Ztoneburg wrote: What does "supporting the option of suicide" mean?
Ztoneburg wrote:I mean fuck it, if life is really so grim, why not end it? Just stay alive because it would cause others a hassle not doing so? Fuck that. Just set a date for next year when you're going to kill yourself and make the preparations.
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Cahoot
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Cahoot »

Ztoneburg wrote: And what is your correct and sane opinion on the issue?
Living is natural and effortless, though one may struggle to affect the perceived quality of living. Acting contrary to what is natural is a delusional assertion.

A samsaric proclivity habitually associated with energy rising from conflict is anger, which is a common samskara passed through generations. Imagine if you will the surprise of close ones when overnight the anticipated behavior is replaced, the same energy transforming into laughter, listening, acceptance, kindness. With no self to take affront, no self to cherish or lose patience, the cherishing and appreciation flows to whatever appears.

In addition to freeing up the energy that is too often dissipated in anger or worry, the energy required to maintain the continuity of a cherished self gets freed up, and the first impulse is to use this surprising source of vitality for activities, but with the ultimate emptiness of activities realized, the vitality naturally flows back into awareness, which perpetuates energy, or power experienced as bliss.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Suicide usually fails, sometimes damages the body in in such a way as to leave the person severely disabled, and tends to leave the person in a worse situation than they were in in the first place. If you are suicidal, your challenge is to figure out what is making you suicidal and fix it.

The natural end of life is not trying to live and failing. It is coming to the end of your prescribed existence, accepting that, and moving on to death in a natural way. If you cut your ride short, you do not get all of the experiences, and therefore the chances to learn life's lessons, that you could have had.

Some of life's lessons are very painful. If you do not learn life's lessons the easy way, then they become increasingly painful until you learn the lesson. Once you learn the lesson, the pain from that lesson stops, and life gets better. The goal is to learn all of the life lessons prescribed for you in the prescribed amount of time so that you will die contented.

I believe that there is a form of life after death, even though all I have is anecdotal evidence and pseudo--science (which is why I say "believe" rather than "know") and I believe that you will regret missing the opportunities given you in this life if you exit early. Granted this is just my belief, and I hate to end on something that isn't more concrete, so the concrete part is that it is undeniable that more time will give you more opportunities.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Living is natural and effortless, though one may struggle to affect the perceived quality of living. Acting contrary to what is natural is a delusional assertion.

A samsaric proclivity habitually associated with energy rising from conflict is anger, which is a common samskara passed through generations. Imagine if you will the surprise of close ones when overnight the anticipated behavior is replaced, the same energy transforming into laughter, listening, acceptance, kindness. With no self to take affront, no self to cherish or lose patience, the cherishing and appreciation flows to whatever appears.

In addition to freeing up the energy that is too often dissipated in anger or worry, the energy required to maintain the continuity of a cherished self gets freed up, and the first impulse is to use this surprising source of vitality for activities, but with the ultimate emptiness of activities realized, the vitality naturally flows back into awareness, which perpetuates energy, or power experienced as bliss.
Isn't it a wonder!
The profound and direct experience of emptiness.

Holding a pen which looks self-evident by itself there and breaking it down into it's pieces/parts to the point where pen vanishes and then reconnecting the parts and pen reappears.
Magical!
Astonishing!
It's a pen! Bliss. A sense of wonder.

Breaking down a tree and putting it back together again.

It's a tree! Bliss.

Breaking down a self and putting it back together again.

It's a self. Wow factor!

things cannot be given their own essence and cannot be said to not exist.

the brain is a magician.
busier than a one armed juggler putting this show on the road.

The bodymind dies, until then experiencing cannot be stopped.
Instantly, any experiencing devolves into conceptualising and the concepts take over and determine the experiencing.

The Buddha taught 2 things:
Emptiness
Bliss
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Just sometimes Dennis, it seems you show that you're still clinging to a few delusional notions ^^

More specifically they are beliefs, ones you've got shit all reason to back up. I'm sure you know there is no insult intended here.
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Cahoot
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Cahoot »

If necessary.

The real question is, will either the factory-sentient or the Transfers (biological sentience transferred to man-made form) be delusional?

“I, on the other hand, am a finished product. I absorb electrical energy directly and utilize it with an almost one hundred percent efficiency. I am composed of strong metal, am continuously conscious, and can stand extremes of environment easily. These are facts which, with the self-evident proposition that no being can create another being superior to itself, smashes your silly hypothesis to nothing.”- Isaac Asimov, in character.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Just sometimes Dennis, it seems you show that you're still clinging to a few delusional notions ^^
What?

Nothing exists absolutely.
Ztoneburg
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Ztoneburg »

Cahoot wrote:
Ztoneburg wrote: And what is your correct and sane opinion on the issue?
Living is natural and effortless, though one may struggle to affect the perceived quality of living. Acting contrary to what is natural is a delusional assertion.

A samsaric proclivity habitually associated with energy rising from conflict is anger, which is a common samskara passed through generations. Imagine if you will the surprise of close ones when overnight the anticipated behavior is replaced, the same energy transforming into laughter, listening, acceptance, kindness. With no self to take affront, no self to cherish or lose patience, the cherishing and appreciation flows to whatever appears.

In addition to freeing up the energy that is too often dissipated in anger or worry, the energy required to maintain the continuity of a cherished self gets freed up, and the first impulse is to use this surprising source of vitality for activities, but with the ultimate emptiness of activities realized, the vitality naturally flows back into awareness, which perpetuates energy, or power experienced as bliss.
I think using the path of least resistance is a viable method to attain satori and break the illusion. Trying continuosly to push people back into the middle won't move them forward. Depression is probably more conducive to spiritual awakening than mediocrity in living.
Ztoneburg
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Ztoneburg »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:
Ztoneburg wrote: What does "supporting the option of suicide" mean?
Ztoneburg wrote:I mean fuck it, if life is really so grim, why not end it? Just stay alive because it would cause others a hassle not doing so? Fuck that. Just set a date for next year when you're going to kill yourself and make the preparations.
Ah so it was just something you took out of context to prop up your presuppositions.

Mis-understanding, mis-interpreting and mis-representing seems to be your activity of choice in this thread. Makes me think your name might be a mis-nomer and that you are a mis-erable poster. :P
Ztoneburg
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Ztoneburg »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:The natural end of life is not trying to live and failing. It is coming to the end of your prescribed existence, accepting that, and moving on to death in a natural way.
That sounds more like 'optimal' than 'natural'. Isn't the most natural way to die to be eaten? That seems to be the most common way for organisms to die anyway. Your idea also seems to imply some sort of determinism, since you use the word 'prescribed', or am I mis-interpreting that?
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:If you cut your ride short, you do not get all of the experiences, and therefore the chances to learn life's lessons, that you could have had.
A counter argument would be "So you die with less experience... so what?". Now if someone wants to have the experience of late stage cancer or what not, I'm not going to object, but neither am I going to try to force people into an existance or experience that they won't enjoy or be able to learn from. Just as peoples right to live shouldn't be taken away from them, neither should their right to not live.
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Some of life's lessons are very painful. If you do not learn life's lessons the easy way, then they become increasingly painful until you learn the lesson. Once you learn the lesson, the pain from that lesson stops, and life gets better. The goal is to learn all of the life lessons prescribed for you in the prescribed amount of time so that you will die contented.
A goal? A secret goal to my life that I haven't been told of? Why would I respect that. If I get a life I'm going to use or abuse it the way I see fit. If you want to rule over it you can pry it from my cold dead hands! Should have made me sign a contract...
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:I believe that there is a form of life after death, even though all I have is anecdotal evidence and pseudo--science (which is why I say "believe" rather than "know") and I believe that you will regret missing the opportunities given you in this life if you exit early. Granted this is just my belief, and I hate to end on something that isn't more concrete, so the concrete part is that it is undeniable that more time will give you more opportunities.
I believe so to, also due to anecdotal evidence which is why I've never mentioned it. But for the sake of discussion I think it might be better to stick with propositions that aren't anecdotal.

Anyway my rather uncontroversial stance is:

1. People have the right to live and to not live.
2. The common attitude from the psychiatric community and society in general towards suicide is very counter productive and should be changed. My impression is that it is causing more harm than good and is not even very successful as far as prevention goes.
Ztoneburg
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Ztoneburg »

Cahoot wrote:
Ztoneburg wrote: And what is your correct and sane opinion on the issue?
Living is natural and effortless, though one may struggle to affect the perceived quality of living. Acting contrary to what is natural is a delusional assertion.

A samsaric proclivity habitually associated with energy rising from conflict is anger, which is a common samskara passed through generations. Imagine if you will the surprise of close ones when overnight the anticipated behavior is replaced, the same energy transforming into laughter, listening, acceptance, kindness. With no self to take affront, no self to cherish or lose patience, the cherishing and appreciation flows to whatever appears.

In addition to freeing up the energy that is too often dissipated in anger or worry, the energy required to maintain the continuity of a cherished self gets freed up, and the first impulse is to use this surprising source of vitality for activities, but with the ultimate emptiness of activities realized, the vitality naturally flows back into awareness, which perpetuates energy, or power experienced as bliss.
I agree that samadhi would be optimal, but might be hard to prescribe in the current system.
Scoobasteve
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Scoobasteve »

lol i have only read this thread on here...but there sure are some high iq people here...unfortunately iq doesnt make u a "genius" alone. you guys need to become mystics/alchemists and embrace your sensitivity. your perceived knowledge is causing you talk 2much like a machine and misdiagnosing ego onto others.

hey ztone. welcome 2 the free world brotha. let me get your email so i can i send u an invite to a website way more fitting for you.

PS have you found interest in researching your family ancestry? astrology/astronomy/your natal chart?

PS I understand the process you went through, but do not wish to talk much here around the profane.

PS love ya brothaaaaaaa
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Cahoot
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Cahoot »

No need to get fancy. If the attachment to the Me monster is too strong, then just lighten up. Have a laugh over something unrelated and re-evaluate irrevocable suicide.

Me monster appears in many forms. Right Scoobydoo?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBJ6yptGqm4
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Scoobasteve wrote:Your perceived knowledge is causing you talk 2much like a machine and misdiagnosing ego onto others.
Well said! But you should have written like a broken machine.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Here she is,
Mother Diebert,
bristling petticoats,
every thread,
wagging her finger and calling 'naughty, naughty'.

Bliss.
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jupiviv
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by jupiviv »

Bliss indeed. Just use some vague words or phrases that are positive and sensible sounding - at least in your own mind - in cases where you can't readily find more direct rationalisations for your speech or actions.

Not only does doing this absolve you - at least in your own mind - of any charge of intellectual laziness or dishonesty, it actually reinforces you in your belief that you are perfectly right in whatever you say or do. Every self-respecting sage/cult member should perfect this technique to the point where he doesn't even know he's using it, which of course gives the added benefit of further reducing the risk of his actually thinking about it.

Xenu has instructed you well, brother Dennis.
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Cahoot
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Cahoot »

jupi wrote: Bliss indeed. Just use some vague words or phrases that are positive and sensible sounding …
That’s a good point that applies to all.

Bliss appears to be a word like God, or enlightenment. Everyone puts a little or a lot of opinion into it.

How about, peace is the highest bliss, fragile until fully realized.

If not that, then what?
ComfortablyNumb
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by ComfortablyNumb »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Please ComfortablyNumb, do not listen to the undoubtedly insane man above.

He is supporting the option of suicide, and is not right-minded.

Actually what he said made a lot of sense and seemed to be an intelligent perspective on the matter. I pretty much completely agree with all of it.

What people fail to realize is following his method. You would probably end up hitting that year mark and be having so much fun, you'd extend it another year. Doing this over the course of decades and living life to the fullest without limitations and being present. Rather than living as a depressed zombie, suffering for other peoples feelings and societies moral code.

However, being that I'm aware of his method it probably wont help me now that ive dissected it.

ps.. i suffered a head injury lately and jump words when I read..my left eye is closing, my facial muscles are weakening, short term memory loss...so my posts might be grammatically failing
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

ComfortablyNumb wrote: ps.. i suffered a head injury lately and jump words when I read..my left eye is closing, my facial muscles are weakening, short term memory loss...so my posts might be grammatically failing
You should take a long, very long break from any screen and first get some treatment for that. It's not just grammatical failure you're facing. Don't be so irresponsible!
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Ztoneburg wrote:
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:The natural end of life is not trying to live and failing. It is coming to the end of your prescribed existence, accepting that, and moving on to death in a natural way.
That sounds more like 'optimal' than 'natural'. Isn't the most natural way to die to be eaten? That seems to be the most common way for organisms to die anyway. Your idea also seems to imply some sort of determinism, since you use the word 'prescribed', or am I mis-interpreting that?
As you say, it would be the most common form of death, not necessarily the most natural. It is not particularly common nowadays for humans to get eaten.

Yes, I do believe in determinism. All things are caused by conditions that were caused by previous conditions. Even your choices are caused by a combination of all the things that occurred prior to and during the moment of your decision. These elements include your genetics, the condition of your mind, the information you had previously gathered, etc. - and all of that was caused. The decision that you make is the only one you could make because of all of these factors and more - they caused your decision and they were caused by previous things. It all comes down to one giant equation that can be no other way than it will be.

That does not mean that the things that we do are worthless or that we should just give up because it is all predetermined and will happen how it's supposed to happen anyway. This is because we are causes of future things, even causes of our own future - even though we are caused and therefore pre-determined to do and choose as we do.
Ztoneburg wrote:
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:If you cut your ride short, you do not get all of the experiences, and therefore the chances to learn life's lessons, that you could have had.
A counter argument would be "So you die with less experience... so what?". Now if someone wants to have the experience of late stage cancer or what not, I'm not going to object, but neither am I going to try to force people into an existance or experience that they won't enjoy or be able to learn from. Just as peoples right to live shouldn't be taken away from them, neither should their right to not live.
No, you can't force someone to live through something that they can not endure - but that does not mean that you should encourage them to end their own lives because that blocks them from seeing other possible options. All we can do is educate people on things like the failure rate of suicide attempts, the consequences of suicide attempts, and also help them figure out what options they have other than suicide because once they have that option in mind, their vision dims to other possibilities.
Ztoneburg wrote:
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Some of life's lessons are very painful. If you do not learn life's lessons the easy way, then they become increasingly painful until you learn the lesson. Once you learn the lesson, the pain from that lesson stops, and life gets better. The goal is to learn all of the life lessons prescribed for you in the prescribed amount of time so that you will die contented.
A goal? A secret goal to my life that I haven't been told of? Why would I respect that. If I get a life I'm going to use or abuse it the way I see fit. If you want to rule over it you can pry it from my cold dead hands! Should have made me sign a contract...
Who is to say that you didn't sign a contract before you were placed into a body?

Why would you respect that? Because the consequences of not respecting it are painful. And you are supposed to use or abuse your life as you see fit - that it the point. You will learn for yourself what "fit" is.
Ztoneburg wrote:
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:I believe that there is a form of life after death, even though all I have is anecdotal evidence and pseudo--science (which is why I say "believe" rather than "know") and I believe that you will regret missing the opportunities given you in this life if you exit early. Granted this is just my belief, and I hate to end on something that isn't more concrete, so the concrete part is that it is undeniable that more time will give you more opportunities.
I believe so to, also due to anecdotal evidence which is why I've never mentioned it. But for the sake of discussion I think it might be better to stick with propositions that aren't anecdotal.

Anyway my rather uncontroversial stance is:

1. People have the right to live and to not live.
2. The common attitude from the psychiatric community and society in general towards suicide is very counter productive and should be changed. My impression is that it is causing more harm than good and is not even very successful as far as prevention goes.
1. Yes, but in that order. You can choose to live every day, but if you choose to die and are successful at it, you can only make that choice once. Who is to say that you will have the choice to live again - or even to not live - once you are dead?

2. The common attitude is that suicide is generally a bad choice. If it is changed any other way, we could lose a lot of people who could otherwise go on to happy lives and be great assets to society. This is how I believe that the common attitude is productive. How do you believe that the common attitude is counterproductive?
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ardy
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by ardy »

HI Ztoneberg: You should read 'The Dazzling Dark' by JOhn Wren-Lewis it may have some insights for you. He was poisoned and woke up in a different state. So it can happen he refered to it as 'being hit on the head by a spiritual hammer'. He was a member of the "Death of God" group of scientists in the 70's so actually disliked religion or any spiritual ideas.

A copy is here http://www.nonduality.com/dazdark.htm
Pam Seeback
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Re: Accidentally stumbling into enlightenment, and out again

Post by Pam Seeback »

Through meditation and contemplation I've managed to start walking the path back to the state I stumbled upon. I think I will get there in time and don't feel any sense if urgency, but it would be nice to get some advice from people who either are in this state or have come further than me on the path to it. It would also be nice to feel a sense of community, since I am now walking this path alone, and it would be reassuring for me to know there are others ahead of me. So hi (again) everyone. Got any words of advice for a newbie?
Ztoneburg, I know of the mystical awakening state that you and your wife experienced. I am poking in to say to you that the intensity of the expansive mystical state must pass in order for one's understanding of it (reasoning of it) to blossom and grow. Which means that if you take your life prematurely, you are cutting short your opportunity to discover, in this lifetime, its why. Perhaps developing a sense of urgency might help you to see that to waste or postpone this rare and glorious gift would be a shame.
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