Animals and nirvana

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Pam Seeback
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Pam Seeback »

Leyla Shen wrote:Try to remember the beginning of the "discussion". I know it might be hard, a lot of mystification has occurred since then thanks to you!
I am going to assume you are speaking to me as your post directly followed mine, but if you were addressing Diebert as was his assumption, my apologies.

What you call mystification, I call [the process of] reasoning.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:I have never said that one should ignore causality, one is caused to end sentience, as is one is caused to move beyond sentience. I never said the way to end sentience is to desire the end of desire. What I said was that it may begin as such, but that as wisdom grows, one also outgrows this beginning futile desire. I'll amend my statement to say that the ultimate goal in the sentient realm is to end sentience by way of the transcendent chain of causality already identified by me of the Buddha's teaching of patiloma, or the way/path of transcendent dependent origination.

As for the animal realm, I stick by my logic that animals are sentient beings and by the logic of transcendent dependent origination that the end of sentience includes them as well.

How 'bout a handshake?
To share or not to shake. It's just that I'm not sure what to do with the idea of any "sentience" beginning or ending. Unless it's short for "sentient being" or "mind" as we can talk about being & no-being, doing & no-doing, mind and no-mind and so on. But central for me stands that it manifests as form of "being". Same with "conscious being" versus just "consciousness" as property or form.

Animals are sentient beings in as far as they are also conscious beings. But the whole of creation could be defined like that using the same logic. Why selecting this over that when talking about dependent origination?
Pam Seeback
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Pam Seeback »

Diebert: Animals are sentient beings in as far as they are also conscious beings. But the whole of creation could be defined like that using the same logic. Why selecting this over that when talking about dependent origination?
Good point. Which means that for the enlightened human being, compassion and lovingkindness and insight wisdom is extended toward all realms of conscious beings that yet cling to form.
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Tomas
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Tomas »

Cahoot wrote:Getting back to the original posting:

I checked some facts. India has very low meat consumption per capita, which is to be expected. Sacred cows.

The US and Australia have the highest meat consumption. Also expected. No sacred cows.

However, India has the most cattle. Far more than any other country. Since they aren’t being eaten they must breed like rabbits. Their worth is what their bodies produce while alive. Their worth is more than the expense of feeding them, worth more than the other responsibilities of keeping them.

These are the free range cows made mythical by the meat eaters. Cows as God intended them. A more or less natural diet, no nutrient supplements. No ‘roid cows. No stress. As much exercise as any animal would choose for itself. A natural taste, says the meat eater. An anthical and rare dining experience. Like horse. An animal not customized for consumption.

The Western cattle are notoriously stupid. The diet, the hormones, artificial fast growth, artificial weight gains. They may even be bred for complacency. These scientists and their clever ways …

Seems like an Indian cow would have more opportunity than its pumped-up cousin, to awaken.

I read that Sri Ramana Maharshi was an animal whisperer. The question is, would a western cow hear him?
No GMO stuff with their cattle (in India).

As a result, the fertilizer they provide for the fields is excellent. ;-)

Working the fields as they do, they get to live to see another day or else they would be pooped out after a day or two by the meat-eating humans.
Don't run to your death
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Wikifact:
  • India ranks 5th in the world in beef production, 7th in domestic consumption and 1st in exporting. - sources
Low domestic consumption per capita is thanks to the population I assume with over a billion. Still number one in export world wide, possibly mostly buffalo but still. Perhaps those 10,000's of "illegal" slaughterhouses? Eastern stupidity: the charm of spiritual appearances. Still piscetarian here in case some people are tempted to read something into this.
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Cahoot
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Cahoot »

Looks like there’s a move against Ma, afoot.

And look at what’s pushing the big movement. Figures.

Growing beef trade hits India’s sacred cow April 2012.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

guest_of_logic wrote:, Buddhism teaches literal reincarnation. I know that you and the house philosophy deny this too, but it is fact. This is, as you seem to understand in your last post, how the suffering of birth, death, illness, etc are ended: the enlightened being no longer reincarnates.

Laird you are misinterpreting what "reincarnation" means. You might as well say Christianity teaches literal heaven. Wtf?

It's a word that you don't know the meaning of, so how can you say it is meant literally?


And in response to the line "the enlightened being no longer reincarnates", is similar to "The cessation of existence", or "is no longer reborn" as attributed to Buddha.

Both of which are references to things you don't understand.
Russell wrote:
SeekerOfWisdom wrote: You seem to believe in a perishable ego-substance that ends, others believe it is reincarnated, the first is equally deluded.
And you believe in an eternal, ever lasting ego substance?
No ego, and hence nothing to perish, or to last.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Why selecting this over that when talking about dependent origination?
Seem to be one of the only ones to recognize that the truth is actually relevant to the discussion, good work.
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Russell Parr
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Russell Parr »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:No ego, and hence nothing to perish, or to last.
Egotism describes a delusional state of consciousness due to a belief in an inherently existing "self" or "I".

For example, the delusional belief that all that exists is a "mind" from which all experiences arise, comes from egotism.

Egotism is real in the sense that you can observe it in others, it's a side-effect of human consciousness, and it does perish, upon death or enlightenment.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Existence and mind are words, both referring to what we experience.

Yes egotism is real, you just agreed egotism is a delusional state, based on false beliefs, because there is no ego("inherently existing self or I"), there is only the delusion of one.

The point is that there is no perishable self, and hence no beginning or end to existence.
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