The Tathagatagarbha
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Pam Seeback
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Re: The Tathagatagarbha
Kunga,
"It is like the wilted flowers;
Before their petals have opened,
One with supernatural vision can see
The unstained Tathagata-kaya.
After the wilted flowers are removed,
One sees, without obstacle, the Teacher,
Who, in order to sever kleshas,
Triumphantly appears in the world.
The Buddha sees that all kinds of beings
Universally possess the tathagata-garbha.
It is covered by countless kleshas,
Just like a tangle of smelly, wilted petals.
So I, on behalf of all beings,
Everywhere expound the Saddharma,
In order to help them remove their kleshas
And quickly reach the Buddha way.
I see with my Buddha cakshur
That in the bodies of all beings
There lies concealed the buddha-garbha,
So I expound the Dharma in order to reveal it."
"It is just like what happens when the honey in a cave or tree,
Though surrounded by countless bees,
Is taken by someone who knows an upaya
To first get rid of the swarm.
The tathagatagarbha of sentient beings
Is like the honey in a cave or tree.
The entanglement of ignorance and tribulation
Is like the swarm of bees
That keep one from getting to it.
For the sake of all beings,
I expound the saddharma with virtuous expedients
Removing the klesha bees,
Revealing the tathagatagarbha.
Endowed with eloquence that knows no obstacle,
I preach the Dharmamrta,
Compassionately relieving beings,
Everywhere helping them to correct perfect enlightenment."
I pulled these two verses from the Tathagata-garbha Sutra link you provided, and would enjoy the opportunity to discuss with you how perfect enlightenment is corrected.
Of my own experience, the use of feminine images such as "flowers" and "honey" and the use of masculine logic that severs the kleshas are both integral parts of the parabolic raft of which the Buddha spoke where he compared his teachings to a raft that could be used to cross the river, but that should be discarded when one has made it safely to the other shore. Discarded in the sense of being a student who seeks to become detached from the kleshas, retained in the sense of being a Teacher whose goal is to help the student become detached from the kleshas.
Making it safely to the other shore of unceasing Tathagatagarbha realization is, to me, THE goal of the Buddha's teachings. Why I say that masculine logic is superior to feminine imagery (which of my understanding resides in the most important realm of ego-healing) while the student of the Teacher yet exists (I will use imagery to make my point) is that masculine logic is the sword by which all kleshas are removed so that the (unconditioned) tathagatagarbha can be revealed. In other words, in order for the student of the Teacher to discard his raft so his enlightenment will be perfected so that he then becomes the Teacher of the student he will have to endure the final blow of the logic sword that ever reminds him that if he meets the Buddha on the road (an image of enlightenment) he should kill him (remove him).
Do you see as I see the logic that reveals that the healing images of Buddha mind, of God, of Self are caused to precede the logic that severs them (in other words, the feminine precedes the masculine) and as the healing images of Buddha mind are severed, that gradually, over time, they simply stop arising? And that what arises to replace the healing imagery of Buddha mind are the masculine (imageless) virtues of faith, rapture, joy, disenchantment, dispassion and knowledge, virtues that continue to rest on the correction principle of logic, the logic that continues remind the student that even the virtues are of the raft that is purposed to be discarded?
Do you see, as I see that even though the feminine and masculine mind are engaged so that the Tathagatagarbha may be realized, that the Tathagatagarbha is neither masculine or feminine? Which, of course, leaves one with the logical conclusion that...:-)
"It is like the wilted flowers;
Before their petals have opened,
One with supernatural vision can see
The unstained Tathagata-kaya.
After the wilted flowers are removed,
One sees, without obstacle, the Teacher,
Who, in order to sever kleshas,
Triumphantly appears in the world.
The Buddha sees that all kinds of beings
Universally possess the tathagata-garbha.
It is covered by countless kleshas,
Just like a tangle of smelly, wilted petals.
So I, on behalf of all beings,
Everywhere expound the Saddharma,
In order to help them remove their kleshas
And quickly reach the Buddha way.
I see with my Buddha cakshur
That in the bodies of all beings
There lies concealed the buddha-garbha,
So I expound the Dharma in order to reveal it."
"It is just like what happens when the honey in a cave or tree,
Though surrounded by countless bees,
Is taken by someone who knows an upaya
To first get rid of the swarm.
The tathagatagarbha of sentient beings
Is like the honey in a cave or tree.
The entanglement of ignorance and tribulation
Is like the swarm of bees
That keep one from getting to it.
For the sake of all beings,
I expound the saddharma with virtuous expedients
Removing the klesha bees,
Revealing the tathagatagarbha.
Endowed with eloquence that knows no obstacle,
I preach the Dharmamrta,
Compassionately relieving beings,
Everywhere helping them to correct perfect enlightenment."
I pulled these two verses from the Tathagata-garbha Sutra link you provided, and would enjoy the opportunity to discuss with you how perfect enlightenment is corrected.
Of my own experience, the use of feminine images such as "flowers" and "honey" and the use of masculine logic that severs the kleshas are both integral parts of the parabolic raft of which the Buddha spoke where he compared his teachings to a raft that could be used to cross the river, but that should be discarded when one has made it safely to the other shore. Discarded in the sense of being a student who seeks to become detached from the kleshas, retained in the sense of being a Teacher whose goal is to help the student become detached from the kleshas.
Making it safely to the other shore of unceasing Tathagatagarbha realization is, to me, THE goal of the Buddha's teachings. Why I say that masculine logic is superior to feminine imagery (which of my understanding resides in the most important realm of ego-healing) while the student of the Teacher yet exists (I will use imagery to make my point) is that masculine logic is the sword by which all kleshas are removed so that the (unconditioned) tathagatagarbha can be revealed. In other words, in order for the student of the Teacher to discard his raft so his enlightenment will be perfected so that he then becomes the Teacher of the student he will have to endure the final blow of the logic sword that ever reminds him that if he meets the Buddha on the road (an image of enlightenment) he should kill him (remove him).
Do you see as I see the logic that reveals that the healing images of Buddha mind, of God, of Self are caused to precede the logic that severs them (in other words, the feminine precedes the masculine) and as the healing images of Buddha mind are severed, that gradually, over time, they simply stop arising? And that what arises to replace the healing imagery of Buddha mind are the masculine (imageless) virtues of faith, rapture, joy, disenchantment, dispassion and knowledge, virtues that continue to rest on the correction principle of logic, the logic that continues remind the student that even the virtues are of the raft that is purposed to be discarded?
Do you see, as I see that even though the feminine and masculine mind are engaged so that the Tathagatagarbha may be realized, that the Tathagatagarbha is neither masculine or feminine? Which, of course, leaves one with the logical conclusion that...:-)
Re: The Tathagatagarbha
The rabid bitch was the Tathagata in disguise ?movingalways wrote:the Tathagatagarbha is neither masculine or feminine? Which, of course, leaves one with the logical conclusion that...:-)
I'll be back after my series of rabie shots......takes about a month....
_/\_
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Pam Seeback
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Re: The Tathagatagarbha
While you're taking a break, I'll leave you with the logic of why the vision you present here
Are not wisdom and compassion a part of co-dependent arising, that is, each is a supporting condition for another condition and/or both are supporting conditions for one another? And being that they are supporting conditions that it is a metaphysical impossibility that they can be united to form that which is unconditioned (the Tathagatagarbha)? In other words, that which is conditioned does not the unconditioned make.
I relate to the misguided ideal of trying to unite the masculine with the feminine, I know from experience that it comes from loving intention. But here is where logic saves...again I put to you...how can that which is conditioned, wisdom and compassion, female and male, craving and disenchantment, eye consciousness and ear consciousness, faith and doubt, etc., have any effect/affect on that which was, is and always will be Unconditioned?
All that is required to be the Unconditioned light we already are (enlightenment) is to realize that both masculine and feminine are but two of the countless kleshas (conditions) to be removed. Purposed to be borrowed for a while, needed for a time, and ultimately to be released never to arise again.
is holding you back from making the breakthrough you need to realize your already present nondual Tathagatagarbha nature.When Wisdom and Compassion [Feminine and Masculine] Unite as one [Non-Duality], then there is Enlightenment.
Are not wisdom and compassion a part of co-dependent arising, that is, each is a supporting condition for another condition and/or both are supporting conditions for one another? And being that they are supporting conditions that it is a metaphysical impossibility that they can be united to form that which is unconditioned (the Tathagatagarbha)? In other words, that which is conditioned does not the unconditioned make.
I relate to the misguided ideal of trying to unite the masculine with the feminine, I know from experience that it comes from loving intention. But here is where logic saves...again I put to you...how can that which is conditioned, wisdom and compassion, female and male, craving and disenchantment, eye consciousness and ear consciousness, faith and doubt, etc., have any effect/affect on that which was, is and always will be Unconditioned?
All that is required to be the Unconditioned light we already are (enlightenment) is to realize that both masculine and feminine are but two of the countless kleshas (conditions) to be removed. Purposed to be borrowed for a while, needed for a time, and ultimately to be released never to arise again.
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Kelly Jones
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- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: The Tathagatagarbha
Sounds nice and tranquillising, but I wouldn't say this is actually the case.MA wrote:All that is required to be the Unconditioned light we already are (enlightenment) is to realize that both masculine and feminine are but two of the countless kleshas (conditions) to be removed. Purposed to be borrowed for a while, needed for a time, and ultimately to be released never to arise again.
The feminine mind is the degenerate mind, which, when removed, removes sex-differentiation altogether, leaving the masculine mind heightened. One could call it ultra-masculine. But since the feminine is removed, there is nothing to contrast it with, so it is no longer called masculine. Yet it continues on the same trajectory.
See how Kierkegaard explains the idea. I posted this a few days ago, but it endures repetition:
Even Plato assumes that the genuinely perfect condition of man means no sex distinction (and how strange this is for people like Feuerbach who are so occupied with affirming sex-differentiation, regarding which they would do best to appeal to paganism). He assumes that originally there was only the masculine (and when there is no thought of femininity, sex-distinction is undifferentiated), but through degeneration and corruption the feminine appeared. He assumes that base and cowardly men became women in death, but he still gives them hope of being elevated again to masculinity. He thinks that in the perfect life the masculine, as originally, will be the only sex, that is, that sex-distinction is a matter of indifference. So it is in Plato, and this, the idea of the state notwithstanding, was the culmination of his philosophy. How much more so, then, the Christian view.
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Thanks, Kunga, for having the goodness to leave. You know you hated me criticising your attachment to your cherished spiritual authorities. But consider this. If they weren't charlatans, one and all, then how come you're so angry? How come you're still prone to intense hellish suffering, like you're going through now? Can the transcendance of nirvana be truly possible for someone who needs to be constantly supported and agreed with, and who can't cope with criticism?