Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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jupiviv
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by jupiviv »

Pye wrote:The thing is, Seeker, (and correct me if I'm wrong), you're not at the level of arranging yet; have not been pressed-into it. As fine a spiritual line you speak here - worthy in concept and all - you haven't been pressed into any self-arrangements yet. Your conditions do not yet warrant it.

The philosophy teacher has become a C of E bishop...lol.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Pye wrote:As far as I understand Elizabeth and her husband (and you correct me if I'm wrong), your lives have been arranged by yourselves to answer to certain values you seek to uphold
My husband arranged his life to answer for certain values. In my case, my PTSD got so bad that I couldn't work anymore.
Pye
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Pye »

Thanks, Elizabeth. Even PTSD is having to answer to conditions . . . . [and let me add] still having-to-make choices about how to navigate it.

Diebert (and correct me if I'm wrong, but) don't you make your living feeding off of academia?

So comfortable, you two, in your all-knowingness, your either/or . . . .
Last edited by Pye on Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Of course that's a situation you had no choice in, different to being locked into a position one doesn't need to be in.

Millions of people have been suffering, and will continue to, for a very long time. Trying to lessen the suffering of others sounds like an attempt to 'save' reality from being what it is. I can't see the difference between that and someone like Laird fighting for animal rights to hopefully lessen their suffering.


And Pye that sounds like a deflection or attack rather than an answer to a question that is only relevant to each individual. Which was, is the maintaining of debt, obligation, and social appearances causing continuous suffering?

"As fine a spiritual line you speak here - worthy in concept and all"

Were the sages making up the whole non-possession thing(Alms, possessing only clothes enough to keep one warm, etc) so people could think about it, forget it, and then continue to 'jump into fire or the mouth of a lion' for the sake of 'maintaining'?

The fact is that maintaining all these attachments, such as familial or work-related, are chains that most likely perpetuate egotism and suffering. ( If they don't it isn't relevant) Bondage rather than freedom. A rich man is poorer than a poor man...'what will I eat?', 'what will I wear?'... harder to enter than finding a needle in a hay stack and all that jazz, or was it passing a needle through the eye of a camel? Forgive me, my memory is a little out of use.

Talking personally usually speaks ignorance, but for the sake of, 'poverty' is great, you should try it, though since you're a smart girl, most likely you'll just be free and end up making money in some simple way without any effort, never actually having to be homeless or poor. I'm talking about giving up duty, worry, deadlines, appearances, so forth, not rolling in the mud and eating out of garbage cans.


'Having realized yourself as That
in which the waves of the world arise and fall,
why do you run around in turmoil?...Strange.'
Pye
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Pye »

And Pye that sounds like a deflection or attack rather than an answer to a question that is only relevant to each individual. Which was, is the maintaining of debt, obligation, and social appearances causing continuous suffering?
Not when the overarching condition reached is one not-of suffering, but of lightness of being . . . . at least in my case.
I'm talking about giving up duty, worry, deadlines, appearances, so forth, not rolling in the mud and eating out of garbage cans.
Fair enough. But all conditions bring forth other conditions. One has to, in each and every case, go for the gestalt.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

All I know is, that like most any other paid organization, university is a place for people to die. Hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths. Never having the time it takes to properly recognize the truth.

When questioned in a conversation about attachment and the various entertainments/distractions people fill their entire lives with, there is only one point I find significant enough to make...

Have you ever actually stopped?
(For more than 15 minutes)
No..
How surprising... then how would you know?


Another usual case is that people who are in the middle of a course, or have completed one, have already invested too much time to stop now or admit the truth. In the same way someone who has already defended one position in an argument can't turn back now.
Last edited by SeekerOfWisdom on Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Millions of people have been suffering, and will continue to, for a very long time. Trying to lessen the suffering of others sounds like an attempt to 'save' reality from being what it is. I can't see the difference between that and someone like Laird fighting for animal rights to hopefully lessen their suffering.
There will always be suffering, even if it becomes only the suffering of children learning how to grow up. That does not mean that we should not try to lessen the suffering of others. Aren't you now trying to lessen the suffering of yourself and others by debating for Truth? Most suffering in the world today is needless. We should try to help eliminate needless suffering so that we all can have a better life. We should not have to earn a living, but if we must earn a living for now, why not do it for the ultimate good of all?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Pye wrote:Diebert (and correct me if I'm wrong, but) don't you make your living feeding off of academia?
Not right now but I preferred looking at it the other way around :). Anyway, I still think the best job is the one undermining actively its own causes. Like a blessed peace maker!

The thing is, teaching emptiness will never supply anyone sustenance. But promoting being, always more room for that!
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote: There will always be suffering, even if it becomes only the suffering of children learning how to grow up. That does not mean that we should not try to lessen the suffering of others. Aren't you now trying to lessen the suffering of yourself and others by debating for Truth? Most suffering in the world today is needless. We should try to help eliminate needless suffering so that we all can have a better life. We should not have to earn a living, but if we must earn a living for now, why not do it for the ultimate good of all?

Do you recognize what I mean when I say there are so many assumptions made here?

First is that one actually 'cares' (shudder) about the suffering of millions of others. (Impossible, can't even count that high)
Second is that one can 'improve' the world.

Third and most importantly, there is the assumption that there is a self-existing world 'out there',

'the world' being created by nothing more than a name.

Discriminating appearances into multiplicities, followed by clinging to what is good and bad.

You make a good point here though,
"why not?"

The fact that enlightened people both today and from ages past see to eye to eye, makes me want to quote them next to each other...

"duties done and left undone
when does it end
and for whom?
Considering this,
be ever desireless,
let go of all things,
and to the world
turn an indifferent eye."
-Ashtavakra

"The Master does nothing,
yet he leaves nothing undone.
The ordinary man is always doing things,
yet many more are left to be done."
-Lao Tzu
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Seeker,
The Buddha disclosed in his soliloquoy that he came with 'dependent origination' as a precursor.
He's a front man.
He's setting up the situation in order to.
For the coming of Maitreya,
in which the living experience is 'men and women dwelling in a fine house of harmonious relations and bliss'
Free of the afflictions, greed, anger, confusion.

Immersion in existential philosophy grabs that 'fine house'.
Existential philosophy is the youthful philosophy.

What toiling?
WTF?
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Cahoot
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Cahoot »

Pye wrote: Buddhism and existentialism part here. The former seeks an 'arrest' to suffering; the latter sees the arrest as the suffering itself what needs addressed.
Regarding the Buddhist part of the conclusion: just as Buddhism recognizes that suffering is an effect of conditions, Buddhism recognizes that the so-called “arresting” of suffering is actually an effect caused by realizing the nature of mind unobscured by attachment to delusion, which effectively ends suffering, but not as a result of seeking to end suffering, though seeking can lead to realizing the nature of mind.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Do you recognize what I mean when I say there are so many assumptions made here?

First is that one actually 'cares' (shudder) about the suffering of millions of others. (Impossible, can't even count that high)
I care about everybody.
SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Second is that one can 'improve' the world.
One can improve the circumstances of "others."
SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Third and most importantly, there is the assumption that there is a self-existing world 'out there',
No, we are all part of the same Whole that is Everything.
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Dennis Mahar wrote: What toiling?
'Toiling' was never in reference to existential philosophy? It's in reference to toiling.
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Dennis Mahar »

You persistently advocate that anyone who isn't sitting on a chair all day (your winning formula) as 'immersed in Toiling'.
WTF?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Wrong, I persistently advocate that most anyone who is exerting constant effort in an attempt to secure/achieve/maintain *anything* is caught up in toiling. It's not always the case, it usually begins that way, once enlightenment sets in there is no doubt you or someone aware could do these things without falling into delusion.
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Don't turn observations into absolute statements when they aren't. Locking in a position to defend or attack from. I'm not defending a statement which is nothing more than the pointing out of an often occurrence.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Wrong, I persistently advocate that most anyone who is exerting constant effort in an attempt to secure/achieve/maintain *anything* is caught up in toiling. It's not always the case, it usually begins that way, once enlightenment sets in there is no doubt you or someone aware could do these things without falling into delusion.
Agreed.
So there is a possibility for 'doing'.
Project.
What kind of project
Are you project John as a way of showing up.
Creative act.
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Jamesh
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Jamesh »

Hi Pye,

I agree with your post. This post is just some half baked nit picking for something to do.
Ambiguity: not this (alone); not that (alone); neither and both. Self And Other. World outside; world inside, etc.

With all that mutually canceling, mutually reinforcing ambiguity, the math would add up to "nothing." Nothingness. But this won't work because there is something, there is definitely something (a world, selves-in-it, etc.) Existential sentence #2:
I don’t really agree with what you are saying with the phrases “mutually cancelling”, “the math would add up to "nothing."”

They are completely distinct, thus there are two beings. Content (what is) and Form (the manner of what is). Being completely distinct it would be silly to think of them as being addable or having a cancellation effect.

Still, you have “added” them together, merged them correctly, as being existence.
This would be the same with being. Being is never in a "state" but always a matter of becoming - more of existence disclosed, and more of it disclosed because in our original recognition of a lack (suffering, what we're not and would like to be, etc.), we create i.e. disclose more of being.
No, other than what you call “lack”, being is always in “states”. Though they are not fixed states overall, the majority of the state holds form over time. A state is a pattern or a pattern set, its form that holds consistency over a period of time/existence. Yes causality does mean a continual state of “becoming different”, but as causality is dualistic, it also involves lessening of some kind.
The human being does the same thing: recognizes something (existence), then creates something else, something else to exist out of its lacking. A lacking is something, not nothing.
The becoming, the lack filling, does not have to be novel, a new type of pattern. The bulk of our existence is circular, combining becoming and lessening.
By definition alone can it be brought forth from nothingness.
No, it can only evolve or expand from something. I’m not saying this recognition of a lacking to be filled is not a continually new, but that it is an emergent property (for us at least). Being lacks (wants), then gains (does) what it lacks and equalises (is sated), then loses (does not hold), then lacks, gains etc til death. A crest lessens to a trough, which gains to become a crest.
The recognition of a lacking is a recognition of something
All patterns of being, given the right circumstances, will increase what is contained in that overall pattern, its overall flow of being over time, by consuming other patterns. Thus becoming is intrinsic in existence.

The problem is that in its becoming more it becomes lesser. This is because it is not driven by its pattern to become more, but by the content that causes the pattern of being. The content within the pattern being lesser than external content, is forced to become increasingly circular and inwards flowing – and as it increasingly does so, it ceases to reach out to the same extent as much of the lack is being fulfilled via the circular pattern (of internal patterns that share/swap becoming and lessening thus are stabilised).

The content is the driver of gravity and equalisation, is intrinsic in all being, it is what content does and is – “need to fill lack” can’t be only an emergent property. In our complex patterned terms, this lack I have to fill with wine, women and song, is just an emergent level of complexity, of this very same absolute intrinsic nature of reality.

How nature fulfills its continuous inherent lack is by continuous inherent expansion of content (time as energy), and more expansion just means more lack.

Content, as it expands acts like a wave – it rolls forward pushing what is in front of it away. This is what fundamental causality is – expansion + the resistance of existence.

A wave can only form from expansion first pushing a form, so content is pushing, or by a compression caused by a collapse of equalised form, a structural falling inwards causing a freedom of gravitational movement, a freedom to expand inwards.

Content expansion, being a process, is also fundamental form, however form also evolves and is thus also emergent existence. Non-expansion, compression, is caused by a collapse of forms that have emerged.
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Dennis Mahar wrote: What kind of project
Are you project John as a way of showing up.
Creative act.
Not sure what you mean.




Jamesh, cease that! You sound little better than Pincho. Are you aware that the content of your post is 'make believe'.
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Pye »

Cahoot, Being - ta for the nuances [and the goodwill greetings]. I ruminate them . . . .

Nietzsche said somewhere once, and more-or-less, that it is easy to spot 'difference' in things, but a far greater achievement to locate their samenesses. Indeed the overlap is what interests me, so I'm postponing the stickiest wickets here between existentialism and buddhism, which reside in 1. the matter of the self, and 2. the possibility for action (project) vs. inaction.

Seeker, the Jamesh I know (sort-of) is unapologetic about taking things here and putting them toward his own interests in thinking - still something of an act of creation, that, even if he might hold it to himself as something of a closed-loop.
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

I don't need an apology, he does, to himself.

There are some people that seem to think discussion of ultimate reality means discussion of physics or science.

You'll never believe a line I read today! (unless you've read it already)
Leyla Shen wrote: If such an “awareness of truth” (non-attachment/enlightenment/dwelling in an egoless state) were experience based (empirical), it would be scientifically verifiable, and it isn’t.
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Pye »

So, buddhist adepts, reply if you might to any overlap you see in sticky wicket #1:

Existentialism - in spite of its recognition of dependent origination - cannot and does not refute the reality of a self. In this concretion of existence, the self is actually the one-and-only irrefutable and immediate confirmation of existence available to us (Sartre might have called it the moment of the Cartesian "I" brought forth from its entanglement in proof-of-god).

This, of course, is one of the ambiguities of our condition it presents. When existentialism looks back upon all the philosophical and metaphysical addresses to this self, it sees a history of flight-from it, and it gauges that flight as one from the sufferings and exigencies of being-this self. It also gauges that flight as cowardice, as well as an entirely unsuccessful, even deluded 'resolution' - delusion that something about this can be "resolved."

This cannot be resolved, for as a few have eloquently said here, no self is born in a vacuum, but into a world of others. And a self can only identify itself through these others (i.e. what I am-not; or, what I am like, too: dependent origination). There is nothing else upon which to ground being than in beings; in turn, nothing can be said about this self but how it meets with itself and others in these conditions. It's in this sense that existentialism might put it that we are 'negatively defined" - in recognizing this lack, we set up project to become-something, participate in what-is: becoming.

Again, if conditions were such that a self were born in a vacuum - disattached from any world i.e. any conditions, then indeed such a self would reflect that vacuum i.e. find itself in and as nothingness. But further, it could not find itself at all in such conditions (i.e. no conditions). Irrefutably does a self experience itself in a world-of-others (conditions and beings) - both isolated in its facticity, as well as being formed and forming with other selves/conditions. It's being is bracketed by its private birth and death, but during this existence, it is always and ever in exchange with causes and effects, hence very much dependent upon them. Things like you-don't really exist - and to that matter, things that suggest you don't really die - are all seen as flight-from one's existential condition. These are all seen as nihilistic, and unrealistic of the nature of being.

If there's only existence, and existence is like this, there's nowhere to run. The running is seen as the problem. The running is seen as flight from one's own existence, i.e. flight from the reality of being and the participation in becoming.

Perhaps I could push this through another nietzsche-sieve: the hardest thing of all is to become what you are. And what you are is becoming, always and ever.

In such a condition, self-making becomes possible, becomes project. Actually, the existential viewpoint would say we are busy with such an act anyway, even and especially in our creative flights. But a flight from existence is not possible; a hand on the tiller is.

It's obvious what departs from some buddhist interpretations here - again, it's the overlap I'm interested in. Perhaps one of you more deeply schooled in buddhist thinking can inform me of any buddhist nuance that would not reject the aforementioned out-of-hand.

[edit: typos, typos, typos...]
Last edited by Pye on Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pye
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Pye »

Seeker, if there's one thing I 'know' about Leyla from her time here, it is that she is not in flight from existence. We will all go about it in some way or another, parry and dodge, this and that, but she is definitely not in flight-from it.
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Pam Seeback »

The Buddha came to show us the way to end suffering. Not to lessen it, not to dress it up as anything other than it is (the appearance of the five aggregates). Bliss and harmony and wonder as beautiful as these feelings are, are conditions of the five aggregates, specifically those of volitional mental formations and mind-consciousness. Conditions come and go, therefore cause suffering.

Walking the path of the fading away with the eventual goal of the cessation of the five aggregates is the ultimate "walk" of being conscious: it is not the path of nihilism or existentialism or any ism of human philosophy. It is certainly not a flight from existence, anyone who has this understanding has not gone deep enough into the reality of their suffering and the suffering of all sentient (existing) beings.

Mind-consciousness fears entering the depth of their suffering to the five aggregates because it is the house of suffering. It's motto: at least when you suffer you know you are alive (born).
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Re: Where Buddhism/existentialism overlap

Post by Pye »

movingalways: Mind-consciousness fears entering the depth of their suffering to the five aggregates because it is the house of suffering. It's motto: at least when you suffer you know you are alive (born).
Which "it" does the relative pronoun attached to the "motto" refer to: Mind-consciousness, or, the house-of-suffering?
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