Core Dysfunction and what it does

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: What is the meaning of life?

Post by Dan Rowden »

Leyla Shen wrote:I'd like to call it 42, Dan.
But then only the mice will understand.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

Lol
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic)

Not all tautologies are A=A, though, so this still isn't the name.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Dan,
It is literally prior to all these things - they are all consequent to and of it. It is simply something understood. There is no label for it that we have that really fits. Or I can't think of one. If I'm forgetting something please let me know
I remember David suggesting 'Rome'.

a coming out from and a coming back to.
all roads lead to Rome.
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Jamesh
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Jamesh »

Let's give A=A a name
In computing, a WYSIWYG editor is a system in which content (text and graphics) displayed onscreen during editing appears in a form closely corresponding to its appearance when printed or displayed as a finished product,[1] which might be a printed document, web page, or slide presentation. WYSIWYG (/ˈwɪziwɪɡ/ wiz-ee-wig)[2] is an acronym for "What You See Is What You Get".

so WYDIWIS - What You Define Is What It Is

...Nahh
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

A for assertion?

Before anything else, assertion has to take place. But to last above any threshold of random noise it has to be self-affirming. A positive feedback: it declares itself! Therefore A=A means as well creation and existence. Even the physical universe might have started with the possibility of some event birthing its own image therefore creating duration and time.

The universe does not work different from our own mind: ideation lasts only if the ideas can positively affirm themselves and birth their own modulated image. The big Yes More Thanks!

[for the fish]
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Dennis Mahar »

A for assertion?

Before anything else, assertion has to take place. But to last above any threshold of random noise it has to be self-affirming. A positive feedback: it declares itself! Therefore A=A means as well creation and existence. Even the physical universe might have started with the possibility of some event birthing its own image therefore creating duration and time.

The universe does not work different from our own mind: ideation lasts only if the ideas can positively affirm themselves and birth their own modulated image. The big Yes More Thanks!

[for the fish]
Think tank.
Spot on.
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jupiviv
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv »

Leyla Shen wrote:I await either your explanation, or you conceding, as to how the above Weininger quote supports your position, stated as follows, paying particular attention to the contradictory statements I have bolded and underscored:
Jeeeez...you're so dumb you can't tell when someone has completed their argument.
Weininger wrote:The proposition itself is thus the criterion of truth and falsity
This is true of all propositions, and indeed all *things*. Logic "culminates"(as Weininger put it) equally in the contents of all things.
L: Explain how truth is the same as belief.

J: Because [belief] cannot be proven to be true.

All belief is belief in God(the All) and thus cannot be proven to be true or false, since it is as much/little a part of God as anything else. Rather it is, like anything else, the standard of truth and falsity, for anything that is not a part of God is either God Himself or absolutely nothing whatsoever.

"Whoever believes that the All itself is deficient is himself completely deficient."

Oh, and I hope you realise that as divine punishment for contradicting the Son of God(viz., me), you shall have to provide oral stimulation to Beelzebub's 1000101th clitoris for all eternity.
Last edited by jupiviv on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

Rather, it is, like anything else, the standard of truth and falsity, for anything that is not a part of God is either God Himself or absolutely nothing whatsoever.
I'm sorry, who?
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

Weininger:
If, rather than acknowledging the proposition A = A, I wanted to attempt to refute it, in so doing I would have to make use of logic, i.e., of exactly this proposition. If at some point I did not comply with it, that would mean that my deduction was false. The proposition itself is thus the criterion of truth and falsity, and from the start it is the measure of my deduction, the standard which I work from as soon as I begin to deduce. Therefore, [in order to "refute" it*] I can at most reject all inferences, and abstain from judgement.*
In other words, A=A is the meaningful criterion of your god (not the other way round), even as you awkwardly sidestep from it with the phrase "the all", dumbo.

Why do you do that, do you suppose?
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jupiviv
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv »

Leyla Shen wrote:Weininger:
If, rather than acknowledging the proposition A = A, I wanted to attempt to refute it, in so doing I would have to make use of logic, i.e., of exactly this proposition. If at some point I did not comply with it, that would mean that my deduction was false. The proposition itself is thus the criterion of truth and falsity, and from the start it is the measure of my deduction, the standard which I work from as soon as I begin to deduce. Therefore, [in order to refute it*] I can at most reject all inferences, and abstain from judgement.*
In other words, A=A is the meaningful criterion of your god (not the other way round), even as you awkwardly sidestep from it with the phrase "the all", dumbo.

The All cannot have a "criterion" by definition. The sentence you've d doesn't say that A=A is a criterion of the All. Why do you think it does?(hint:moron)

Also, how have I "sidestepped" from my use of the word "God"?
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

And I emphasised the word, too...

What I said is:
A=A is the MEANINGFUL criterion of your god (not the other way round), [snip]
If the truth and/or falsity of a proposition (which always points to some thing) is established with A=A, then it is precisely this that gives meaning to what a "belief" is and functions as the criterion of all bloody three, by logical necessity.

I mean, fucking hello?
Also, how have I "sidestepped" from my use of the word "God"?
Wow. Is that a trick question?

Um. By being forced to replace it with the term "the All" because I don't believe in god.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

And also because you refuse to define god in any other way, interestingly. Which kinda raises the question as to your insistence on using the term, no?
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jupiviv
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv »

Leyla Shen wrote:And I emphasised the word, too...

What I said is:
A=A is the MEANINGFUL criterion of your god (not the other way round), [snip]
If the truth and/or falsity of a proposition (which always points to some thing) is established with A=A, then it is precisely this that gives meaning to what a "belief" is and functions as the criterion of all bloody three, by logical necessity.

The truth of any proposition is synonymous with the truth of A=A(and vice versa), not established by it. I reiterate: lern2logic.
I mean, fucking hello?

How old are you?
Leyla Shen
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

The truth of any proposition is synonymous with the truth of A=A(and vice versa) [...]
Signs of life! Or maybe just more parroting...

Sure, and as I said, so too falsity, BELIEF and MEANING.

O ye of little faith! Why hast thou forsaken thy false god now!
lern2logic
Clearly, much older, wiser and intellectually dexterous than you.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv »

Apparently you don't understand the difference between "synonymous" and "established by."

"A^-1 is synonymous with 1/A."

"The value of 1/A or A^-1 is established by the value of A."

It is precisely because the truth of all propositions are exactly identical that they are beliefs, since there is no way to establish their truth using any other kind of truth. They are all each others' standards of truth, meaning and falsity, which is why the standard of truth itself cannot be proven but must be believed.

Also, you seem to think the reason I wrote "the All" instead of "God" was to appeal to your taste or something, which is cosmically stupid. It's obvious you have a completely irrational hatred of the non-derogatory usage of any religious sounding rhetoric except perhaps those ironising said rhetoric, used in conjunction with pointless qualifiers, enclosed within quotation marks and all in lowercase(or some combination of these), which makes you as insane as the religious people you supposedly despise. Pardon me for not indulging your doubleplusirrational atheist verbal fetish.
Bobo
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Bobo »

Ernst Becker in 'Zen: A Rational Critique' wrote:"In fact, the otherworldliness of "intuitive teaching" has no other referent than this-worldly action: the dominance-submission, master-pupil relationship is a reform method. However much it would accent the "egoless" aspect of existence, Zen puts the individual in the service of a new superego. Or, rather, because it accents the "egoless," there is nothing to oppose to the master's dominant reality. Actually, as a result of the dominance-submission conversion of the master-disciple relationship, a Zennist has done nothing more than internalize the superego of the master and the Zendo, or of the Zen pupil group. In consequence, the value system which has been introjected reaches no further than the interpersonal social group of master and fellow Zennists. Universal Mind working through egoless self leaves, as the only guide for conduct, the ad hoc morality of the social group. Not only is the individual a "vehicle" for the expression of cosmic will: he is also a vehicle for the expression of any conduct dictated by the group's morality, a morality capable of being understood anew at any moment in time. "The world of multiplicities" provides the framework for the everyday "practical" conduct ones does what one must do according to the contemporary cultural imperative.

"The kinship of the thought reform conversion to other "therapeutic cures" is obvious. Infantilization, regression, the digging up of past errors, self-examination via painstaking analysis and insight into problems these are all capped, after the emotional catharsis of confession and rebirth, by the new identity. Thought reform has special techniques, such as a suggestive, hypnotic aspect which facilitates the remolding."
What is that which infantalizes people, has a supernatural connection to nature, demand group conformation, and is extremely authoritarian? -hint: it's not a zen master :D
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

Dumbo the Preacher wrote:
It is precisely because the truth of all propositions are exactly identical that they are beliefs, since there is no way to establish their truth using any other kind of truth. They are all each others' standards of truth, meaning and falsity, which is why the standard of truth itself cannot be proven but must be believed.
Kevin Solway:
It is said that the purpose of the Christian sermon is to convince the Christian that he does in fact believe in Christianity. That is, to give the Christian faith that he has faith; to remind the Christian what he believes in. And why does the Christian need to be reminded? - because it is so easy to forget you believe something, especially when what you believe in isn't true.
The only reason someone needs to believe in truth is because he is inclined toward delusion.
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Tomas
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Tomas »

[quote="Leyla Shen

Kevin Solway:
It is said that the purpose of the Christian sermon is to convince the Christian that he does in fact believe in Christianity. That is, to give the Christian faith that he has faith; to remind the Christian what he believes in. And why does the Christian need to be reminded? - because it is so easy to forget you believe something, especially when what you believe in isn't true.
I miss Kevin.
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Kunga
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Kunga »

Dan Rowden wrote:A=A is really neither a law nor an axiom nor a truth, absolute or otherwise (truth and falsity apply to propositions and A=A is not a proposition). It is literally prior to all these things - they are all consequent to and of it. It is simply something understood. There is no label for it that we have that really fits. Or I can't think of one. If I'm forgetting something please let me know. Law is closest I guess when thought of in an Aristotelian way, but even that I don't like it entirely.

Let's give A=A a name. Let's not make it "Trevor", however.


A=A [ Consciousness]


"The Absolute is a non-dual consciousness. The duality of the subject and object does not pertain to it. It is said to be void , devoid of duality; in itself it is perfectly real, in fact the only reality ...There is no consciousness of the Absolute; Consciousness is the Absolute."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Bud ... e_Absolute
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv »

Since it's descended to the level of quote slinging:
Kevin Solway wrote:I put it to you that faith and belief are the highest qualities of mankind - but only when it is faith in truth and belief in truth - not faith and belief in illusions.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Leyla Shen »

Oh, ok -- let's do that.

I'll quote myself:
The only reason someone needs to believe in truth is because he is inclined toward delusion.
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Bobo »

Kunga wrote:
Dan Rowden wrote:A=A is really neither a law nor an axiom nor a truth, absolute or otherwise (truth and falsity apply to propositions and A=A is not a proposition). It is literally prior to all these things - they are all consequent to and of it. It is simply something understood. There is no label for it that we have that really fits. Or I can't think of one. If I'm forgetting something please let me know. Law is closest I guess when thought of in an Aristotelian way, but even that I don't like it entirely.

Let's give A=A a name. Let's not make it "Trevor", however.


A=A [ Consciousness]


"The Absolute is a non-dual consciousness. The duality of the subject and object does not pertain to it. It is said to be void , devoid of duality; in itself it is perfectly real, in fact the only reality ...There is no consciousness of the Absolute; Consciousness is the Absolute."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Bud ... e_Absolute
I think Weininger called it soul, which is beyond time, which would mean an Ego with inherent existence, or essence?

- Edit

"Logic proves the absolute actual existence of the ego ; ethics control the form which the actuality assumes. Ethics dominate logic and make logic part of their contents." Weininger.

What about naming A=A as ego?
Last edited by Bobo on Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jupiviv
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by jupiviv »

Leyla Shen wrote:Oh, ok -- let's do that.

I'll quote myself:
The only reason someone needs to believe in truth is because he is inclined toward delusion.
The Power of Christ compels thee, wench, to besmirch no more with thy blasphemies this hallowed cyberspace. GET BACK BEHIND ME I SAY! GET BACK BEHIIIIND MEEEE....AAAARGGGGHHHHH!!!!111!1

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Kunga
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Re: Core Dysfunction and what it does

Post by Kunga »

Bobo wrote:"Logic proves the absolute actual existence of the ego ; ethics control the form which the actuality assumes. Ethics dominate logic and make logic part of their contents." Weininger.
Well...when you break down the essence of what we are...there is no ego to be found....so how could it be Absolute ?
Also...there's no room for ethics in logic....some ethics are not ethical...and they change dependent on culture...so logic wouldn't be universal....only personal....



Bobo wrote:I think Weininger called it soul,
But it would have to be "All Inclusive".....and he EXcluded woman and Jews. I have a real problem with that. But then again...if Ultimately there are no women and Jews [as the Absolute is ONE entity]....man and woman would be equal....as would be everything else....the Absolute is absolute equanimity...
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