What's the Point of Religion?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote:I have presented my arguments. Russell is addressing it. The rest is obvious.
Not sure if you even entered the discussion yet. Russell will have to read back to find an actual topic to address! As should you.
Leyla Shen
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Leyla Shen »

You mean, Russell and I will have to scroll back to find a topic you would like us to address, because we can't have anyone thinking without you having decided what it means and does not mean for everybody else.

You act like an umpire, but totally useless at it!
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote:You mean, Russell and I will have to scroll back to find a topic you would like us to address, because we can't have anyone thinking without you having decided what it means and does not mean for everybody else.
Better than swimming with the red herrings! Please note that I'm addressing experience and suffering itself at the core. Not the ability to distill truth or a sense of reality out of it. That comes way later and naturally to our mind if not blocked by some emotional hang-up or attachment over this or that.
Leyla Shen
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Trust me, nothing you say about fallacious reasoning holds any water with me. So, you can dispense with your consistent attempt to force rather than provie the point.

Now, if you don't like the discussion going on between Russell and I, butt out.
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Seeker,
if the accusation 'clinging' is fired at you.
take on the distinction 'commitment'.

Showing up in a radiant mind kind of way as 'not clinging madam',
committed to the notion of impermanence as explication.
Being that rigorous.
of course, all these names like appearance, permanence, finite, infinite are conventional designations only, bear no absolute nature, and enshrining them in 'logic puzzles' requires aspirin.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote:Trust me, nothing you say about fallacious reasoning holds any water with me.
But you accused me of a fallacy, remember? Not the other way around. Then you progressed claiming I deliberately attacked you and questioned my integrity there as well. If you can't put up, indeed shut up.
Leyla Shen
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Leyla Shen »

So, let me get this straight. Now you want me to stop my discussion with Russell because any discussion I might have about delusion is necessarily an ad hom attack on you?

Is that right, Diebert?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote:So, let me get this straight. Now you want me to stop my discussion with Russell because any discussion I might have about delusion is necessarily an ad hom attack on you?
Wasn't it you who inserted yourself when I replied to Russell'? You interrupted that by claiming that I lacked focus and proper discernent! So who is stopping what?

The fact is that the discussion was earlier about the fundamental notion of dukkha as expressed by Buddha's noble truth and not about what is a "true" experience and what might be a "false" one.
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Leyla Shen »

And the fact is that now I am having a discussion about reality and delusion which you are complaining is off-topic and the product of a grudge I'm holding because it's not what you want to discuss.

So, butt out -- and find someone who wants to discuss what you want to discuss with you.

Surely, that's not that difficult to understand.
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Tomas
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Tomas »

Leyla Shen wrote:You mean, Russell and I will have to scroll back to find a topic you would like us to address, because we can't have anyone thinking without you having decided what it means and does not mean for everybody else.

You act like an umpire, but totally useless at it!
Whoa!

The mortician is in error mode?
Don't run to your death
Pye
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Pye »

Some of us are beginning to sound like the very academic, the very analytic philosophers - the very thing thought of here as apposite to 'enlightenment.' This is what the professional language weenies do in their academic citadels. They restrict all being to only what can be said, and they restrict all 'proof' to the vehicle of language-logic itself, whether it touches life/being or not. An internal 'system' of proof; or as the Tao might have it - the mere 'husk.' It brings the tools into precedence, rather than the thing it might be seeking to work upon. The working of the tools becomes the work; the connection to being begins to recede. Analytic philosophers becoming tools; language working them, as opposed to the other way around.

Being sometimes reveals itself further where the gap occurs - where carefully constructed language-stacks teeter and holes begin to appear. In the holes are something (for there is always something; there is never 'nothing'). Stay in the house of language, and there you shall reside. You can build a good, sturdy structure, but it's likely to be bereft of windows. The same air will recirculate; 'sick-building' syndrome ensues . . . .

But if we look to the gaps, the openings, the clearings, something-about-being will presence itself; something will always be there. If we're lucky, we can hang a word on it (so others can be told/shared).

We are talking about 'being,' aren't we? Or are we just talking about talk . . . .

Funny, that. I'm the poor sap who works professionally around these little air-tight citadels and I come here to get away from it. Now I'm here - and there's a whole 'nother row of little boxes on the hillside, little boxes made of ticky-tacky . . . .

Dennis says it more economically here:
of course, all these names like appearance, permanence, finite, infinite are conventional designations only, bear no absolute nature, and enshrining them in 'logic puzzles' requires aspirin.
Yes, I'm bringing up Dennis again.
So sue me.

Something's 'stuck' here. Leyla, Diebert, stuck in the house that jack-shit built; stuck in houses built of jack-shit.

Arrested being - now that's the root of delusion/suffering . . . .

Arrested being.

Look to the gaps, and maybe something will break through . . . .
and if you're lucky, you can hang a word on it so each other can be told, so something might be understood.
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Tomas wrote:
Leyla Shen wrote:You mean, Russell and I will have to scroll back to find a topic you would like us to address, because we can't have anyone thinking without you having decided what it means and does not mean for everybody else.

You act like an umpire, but totally useless at it!
Whoa!

The mortician is in error mode?
Yes. I'm immortal. (:
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SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Dennis Mahar wrote: of course, all these names like appearance, permanence, finite, infinite are conventional designations only, bear no absolute nature, and enshrining them in 'logic puzzles' requires aspirin.

Yeah I was away that day when we were learning our (1) + (2)= philosophical assertion's.

The communication is a matter of description. Most have a preset notion that discussion is time for the assertion/negation of opinions, then assume anything said is some kind of attempt at putting down an absolute. Which is what usually happens when folk are in a group conversation and are coming up with the customary opinions that last about five seconds, then someone lays down what looks like an absolute without much thought, inevitably followed by a rigorous defence of that non-existent position.
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Consider yourself sued, Pye.
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SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

lol I post only to read your similar comment, Pye, a moment later. Only you say it a whole lot more efficiently!
Pye
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Pye »

Leyla writes:
Consider yourself sued, Pye
OK, well good luck collecting on that one :)

Arrested being: that's what ego is. That's why it struggles so, arrested into a state-of-being.
Being-itself is never in a 'state.' It is always and ever becoming. Try arresting that, and suffer, we will . . . .
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Oh, but I have collected already. (: It's a class action.

Philosophy, by the way, is not possible without a sound grasp of reason, which in turn is not possible without logic.
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Pye
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Pye »

Thankyou for telling me what philosophy is! What would I do without you there to remind me . . . . :)

Yes, logic as a tool of reason. One just doesn't want to mistake the tools as the ends-in-themselves. Reason, in my estimation, is always fluid, like becoming itself, if it seeks to say anything about reality at all (We are trying to talk about reality/being here, aren't we?). Much lighter on its feet is reasoning than the plodding syllogisms it might employ . . . stepping stones, those, on a good day. On a bad day, not stepping, but stuck.
Oh, but I have collected already.
Like Diebert, always a winner. Must win, must win. The two of you argue like mirrors . . . .

Well, Leyla, if you're satisfied to struggle in the state you've been in, I leave you to it . . . .
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Pye wrote:
Thankyou for telling me what philosophy is! What would I do without you there to remind me . . . . :)
The same thing I would do without you there to remind me what suffering is?
Yes, logic as a tool of reason. One just doesn't want to mistake the tools as the ends-in-themselves.
Definitely not.
Reason, in my estimation, is always fluid, like becoming itself, if it seeks to say anything about reality at all (We are trying to talk about reality/being here, aren't we?). Much lighter on its feet is reasoning than the plodding syllogisms it might employ . . . stepping stones, those, on a good day. On a bad day, not stepping, but stuck.
Sure, if you’re in the mood for giving a good ballet performance rather than constructing a solid framework on which to perform.
Like Diebert, always a winner. Must win, must win. The two of you argue like mirrors . . . .
We have a penchant for flamenco?
Well, Leyla, if you're satisfied to struggle in the state you've been in, I leave you to it . . . .
So you’re saying ballet is better on the eyes than flamenco; but in the end all you speak of is style and not execution.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Pye wrote:Like Diebert, always a winner. Must win, must win. The two of you argue like mirrors . . .
Before reasoning comes paying attention. How to stress that in such a messy discussion cupboard? Well, just check out some of the details and it will become clear.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Before reasoning comes paying attention. How to stress that in such a tiny discussion cupboard? Well, just check out some of the details and it will become clear.
If you're gonna skydive it's best to pay attention to and go over the details of the parachute because your life depends on it.
of course, all these names like appearance, permanence, finite, infinite are conventional designations only, bear no absolute nature, and enshrining them in 'logic puzzles' requires aspirin.
If you're gonna access true nature you might have to pay attention to that little detail.

Well that's details covered.
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Pye »

Leyla writes: Sure, if you’re in the mood for giving a good ballet performance rather than constructing a solid framework on which to perform.
What 'solid framework'? The two of you cannot even agree upon the definitions of the words and fallicies you are using. At least Diebert is asking for some work in that area.

And what solidity is there to being/becoming that one thinks they can arrest into such a state?

Only for games are there solid frameworks; only for rules, for penalties. You're gaming, Leyla; not philosophizing. (Unless you want to be an analytic philosopher - then you sound just like them with this 'solid foundations' business - I know a number of uni's that would hire you for that in a newyork minute, then you can all work at playing linguistic king-of-the-hill till the cows come home. But you'all won't know when the cows have come home because that's not where you're looking!)
So you’re saying ballet is better on the eyes than flamenco; but in the end all you speak of is style and not execution.
Style IS the execution! Goodness, what ridiculous this-then-thuses you're into these days.

If all this is meant to point-to something rather than itself, then the dance of becoming makes a much heartier metaphor than 'solid foundations.'

If you just want to argue, employ logics and syllogisms, then you can fabricate all the linguistic foundations you please. Yes, please - please work on some 'solid foundations' in your argument with Diebert. Discuss the nature of the language you both want to use, the meaning of the blocks you want to build your solid foundations upon. Both of you seem to want to win the meaning-assignment game before you've even played it! - want to start out 'right.' Language dies in a non-fluid, non-adaptable state. Kind of like Latin . . . . language is the breath of our making, not the blocks we found waiting for us here before ourselves.

All this "in my estimation," of course!

Seriously, Leyla, what is happening with you? I'll bet it's way outside these words, as is the nature of words themselves, grafted onto what they're pointing to.
Diebert asks: How to stress that in such a tiny discussion cupboard?
What 'tiny cupboard'? It's the nature of the whole of existence you're after in these 'arguments,' isn't it? If it's all about linguistics, then tiny cupboard, indeed.
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Pye wrote:
Style IS the execution!
Yes, to a spectator there's no difference.
Goodness, what ridiculous this-then-thuses you're into these days.
Really, Pye, if you are going to make such a charge, be specific. Slander is, at best, laziness; at worst, entirely disingenuous.
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Leyla Shen
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Leyla Shen »

And for the record, I'm dumbfounded, to be honest! For my part, I thought myself so much better these days than those...

But, hey. Who am I to judge? (:
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Re: What's the Point of Religion?

Post by Pye »

Thanks for that last, Leyla.
It's a breakthrough; an opening at least, whereas no one has been able to get near your immortal self lately, what with all that lashing out :)

I have to vacate the seat, but it's with some fresh air and light, and renewed warmth toward your awesomely spirited self . . . . thanks for the opening to say so.
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